Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

[SBC]

You apparently don't know the Scriptures;
Mark 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Matt.15

1. [16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

 

[Butch5]

So are you agreeing with Matt 10:28 that the soul AND body are two separate things or not?

Matt.10
[28]....fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

If one is a part of the other then they have to be two different things.

Are you aware that quite a few passages in the OT are spoken by OT men with limited understanding? Are you aware ancient OT men were like a babe, without history or experience, and God related to them; the same as we relate to our babies/children; Lots of Truths, Lots of Rules and corrections, and LITTLE understanding (because they have not yet developed a sense of reasoning abilities.)

After 4,000 years of mankind, and of course the age of PHILOSOPHERS (supposed educated guessers) and 400 years of exile; THEN came the refreshment of Gods Word
into the World, with a NEW agenda. RETEACHING the "lost" Hebrews/Jews, INCLUDING the Gentiles (who had historically been separated from Gods laws per Mosaic Law), AND most importantly teaching HOW "ANY" man can become acceptable and reconciled unto God....AND have a spiritual hotline directly to Gods understanding of scriptures.

You didn't answer the question. There ar quite a few passages of Scripture in which the Greek and Hebrew words for soul are translated life. One of the reasons there is so much confusion on this subject is because the translator translate, "nephesh" and "psuche," with different words.


11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)



In this passage we find that the "life" is in the blood. The word translated life is the Hebrew word "nephesh" which is translated soul.


21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:21 KJV)


Here Nephesh is translated creature.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. (Gen. 9:4 KJV)

Here again nephesh is translated life.

8 And he communed with them, saying, If it be your mind that I should bury my dead out of my sight; hear me, and intreat for me to Ephron the son of Zohar, (Gen. 23:8 KJV)



Here Nephesh is translated mind.


Can you see how confusing it can be. A thorough study of the term will reveal that it's used concretely of a physical being and abstractly of life.

So what is your point? The man is no longer a BODY? The BODY turned into a Soul?
Both the body and the living soul is the man?

My point is that apart from the body there is no soul.

Scripture is very clear on what a form is (body).
What is the form (you call a soul) look like?
And when a surgeon saves the life of a BODY; is he also saving a soul?

A soul according to Gen 2 is a body infused with the breath of life. The life of the body comes from God, it is the breath of life. combined with the body they form a living soul.

Funny. His and He are possessive nouns. Failing to use them properly has nothing to do with weather or not they are possessive.

So when God says MY Spirit, MY Word.....He is not talking about what is He Himself ?

He denotes personhood, His denote possession.

The point is not about the delivery or style of speech (story, poetry, limerick, etc.).
The point is IS there ANYTHING that Jesus spoke that you believe is NOT TRUE?

But it is. A parable doesn't have to be literal to portray a meaning.

Your question does not require an answer. Jesus is the teacher. You want to challenge whom Jesus taught, take that up with Him. I believe Jesus desires all should hear His teaching, regardless of their title.

I'm asking you because it goes to your interpretation. You say this is teaching yet in Scripture I don't find Jesus teaching those who rejected Him.

 

[SBC]

I already believe every word Jesus said is true and we're not on the same page. The difference, I believe, is that I don't think every word that Jesus spoke was literal.

Yes. I know what you say.
You do not recognize you are claiming you believe complete opposites.
Which is why I completely disagree with what you teach.

LITERAL ~ antonyms

Antonyms for literal

• counterfeit
• dishonest
• false
• falsified
• unreal
• inaccurate

Neither am I. However, the writers of Scripture have informed us that Jesus used parables when He spoke and that He reached a point where He would only speak to the Pharisees in parables. Who was He speaking to in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man? The Pharisees. So, if He would only speak to them in parables and He spoke to them what does that make His words? A parable.

It may be acceptable to announce your belief Jesus' teaching is comparable to ~
dishonest, false, falsified, unreal, inaccurate ~

However that is totally unacceptable to me.

Unless Jesus tells you what it means,

PRECISELY!

It's possible that your understanding of what you read is incorrect.

What I read is simply KNOWLEDGE. What I UNDERSTAND is given me from the Lord!

Jesus didn't say those words to everyone who reads the Bible. He said them to the Pharisees.

If what Jesus said does not apply to you, do what is your will with the information; makes no difference to me.

Not at all. Firstly, why do you assume this is teaching? I've already asked you why Jesus would be teaching the Pharisees.

I don't assume. I know He is the teacher, and came to earth to reveal truths, knowledge, wisdom and understanding for all inclined to receive such things.

Given the context I think it's pretty clear. A person is a human being.

Your understanding is not pretty clear. Thus I asked you. Can you provide a scripture that says a "person is a human being" ?

It's not irrelevant. A dead anything can't do anything.

A dead what?
Dead body can do nothing? Dead soul can do nothing? Dead spirit can do nothing?

God Bless
SBC

 

[Dartman]

You apparently don't know the Scriptures;
Mark 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Matt.15

1. [16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Please modify your understanding to match the Scriptures.
Jesus didn't just tell a couple of parables.... Jesus didn't speak to the multitudes WITHOUT a parable .... he used "MANY" parables.

 

[SBC]

If one is a part of the other then they have to be two different things.

Agree.

You didn't answer the question.

That door swings both ways.

There ar quite a few passages of Scripture in which the Greek and Hebrew words for soul are translated life.

And?
God IS LIFE.
God makes SOULS.
Souls are not LIFE, they are MADE things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living Souls.
Body's are not LIFE, they are CREATED things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living.

One of the reasons there is so much confusion on this subject is because the translator translate, "nephesh" and "psuche," with different words.

Sure it can be confusing. But it doesn't have to be.

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)

In this passage we find that the "life" is in the blood. The word translated life is the Hebrew word "nephesh" which is translated soul.

Life OF the flesh is in the blood.
Life IN the soul is Life from God, imparted via His breath.

2Cor.3

1. [14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:21 KJV)

Here Nephesh is translated creature.

God IS LIFE.
God makes SOULS.
Souls are not LIFE, they are MADE things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living Souls.
Body's are not LIFE, they are CREATED things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. (Gen. 9:4 KJV)

Here again nephesh is translated life.

God IS LIFE.
God makes SOULS.
Souls are not LIFE, they are MADE things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living Souls.
Body's are not LIFE, they are CREATED things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living.

8 And he communed with them, saying, If it be your mind that I should bury my dead out of my sight; hear me, and intreat for me to Ephron the son of Zohar, (Gen. 23:8 KJV)

Here Nephesh is translated mind.

God IS LIFE.
God makes SOULS.
Souls are not LIFE, they are MADE things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living Souls.
Body's are not LIFE, they are CREATED things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living.

[/QUOTE] Can you see how confusing it can be. A thorough study of the term will reveal that it's used concretely of a physical being and abstractly of life.[/QUOTE]

Sure it can be confusing; particularly when men are spending their time trying to cipher what ancient Hebrews said and understood, and Greek philosophers were pondering and teaching what scripture meant and ignoring the straight forward teaching of Jesus. And of course not to forget all the psychobabble, flowery, rhetoric words men drench their speech with; AS IF it justifies their nonsense.

Christ Jesus IS the LIFE. Christ Jesus has made ALL things. All things come into LIVING, BY LIFE entering the thing, quickening the things into living.

John.1

1. [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John.11
[25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:

John.14
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:

John 1
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1Tim.6
[13] I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things...

My point is that apart from the body there is no soul.

No.

A soul according to Gen 2 is a body infused with the breath of life.

According to Gen 2: a body is formed By God from dust of the earth.
According to Gen 2: that body is quickened into living, when it receives LIFE.
According to Gen 2: Life in that body, is received from God.

The life of the body comes from God,

Yes.

it is the breath of life.

Yes. God is Life, and God breathing INTO something (ie a body), gives that body LIFE.

combined with the body they form a living soul

No. The body is the form. The living soul is that which brings the form into living.

He denotes personhood, His denote possession.

His body, is a possession?
His soul, is a possession?
His spirit, is a possession?
His heart, is a possession?
His mind, is a possession?

But those things are not a person?

But it is. A parable doesn't have to be literal to portray a meaning.

It absolutely does have to be literal truth, when it comes out of the mouth of the Truth!

1Pet.2

1. [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

I asked;
The point is IS there ANYTHING that Jesus spoke that you believe is NOT TRUE?

Oops, that swinging door. You didn't answer.

I'm asking you because it goes to your interpretation. You say this is teaching yet in Scripture I don't find Jesus teaching those who rejected Him.

John 18:
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Guess you missed the lesson, that many Jews rejected Jesus.

Clue:

Luke 23:
[21] But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.

Col.2

1. [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

God Bless
SBC

 

[SBC]

Please modify your understanding to match the Scriptures.
Jesus didn't just tell a couple of parables.... Jesus didn't speak to the multitudes WITHOUT a parable .... he used "MANY" parables.

Why are you deflecting from the point of our disagreement ?

The point is;

Your position is; Jesus can speak FICTITIOUS, UNTRUE things, to make a TRUTHFUL point.
(if that is not correct, then you plainly state your position)

Where is your Scriptural backing, that reveals, Jesus spoke anything, fictitious or untrue?

My position is; Scriptural.
Jesus IS the TRUTH. (John 14:6)
Jesus Has NO GUILD in his mouth. (1 Pet 2:22)

How MANY parables Jesus spoke, has nothing to do with the discussion.
Please stick to the point.
Please reveal scripture that notifies any reader, that Jesus spoke fiction or non-truths.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Dartman]

Why are you deflecting from the point of our disagreement ?

Correcting your error.

The point is;

Your position is; Jesus can speak FICTITIOUS, UNTRUE things, to make a TRUTHFUL point.
(if that is not correct, then you plainly state your position)

Absolutely true. Jesus wasn't literally commanding that his flesh be eaten, or his blood being drunk. Jesus wasn't literally commanding us to cut off our hand, if we sin with it. Jesus wasn't talking about a literal pearl, when he told the parable of "the pearl of great price". When Jesus told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus he was NOT describing the LITERAL actions of LITERAL dead people.

Where is your Scriptural backing, that reveals, Jesus spoke anything, fictitious or untrue?

That's what a parable is.

My position is; Scriptural.

Mostly not. Every verse you quote is Scriptural, and I am sure you probably have SOME Scriptural points, but so far, your points haven't matched the Scriptures.

Jesus IS the TRUTH. (John 14:6)

Very true.

Jesus Has NO GUILD in his mouth. (1 Pet 2:22)

You mean "Guile", and again, this is true.

How MANY parables Jesus spoke, has nothing to do with the discussion.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up!
Post #397

Yes He did. One Speech. One Sermon. And TWO responses from the People.
1) Some believed ALL He said; and were hungry to hear more.
2) Some could NOT believe ALL He said; and walked away.

Please stick to the point.

 

[SBC]

Correcting your error.

If that is what you think; no reflection on me.

Absolutely true.

Jesus wasn't literally commanding that his flesh be eaten, or his blood being drunk.

And your scripture saying what you just claimed is: ?

Jesus wasn't literally commanding us to cut off our hand, if we sin with it.

And your scripture saying what you just claimed is: ?

Jesus wasn't talking about a literal pearl, when he told the parable of "the pearl of great price"

And your scripture saying what you just claimed is: ?

When Jesus told the parable of the rich man and Lazarus he was NOT describing the LITERAL actions of LITERAL dead people.

And your scripture saying what you just claimed is: ?

That's what a parable is.

Scripture that defines a parable?

Mostly not. Every verse you quote is Scriptural, and I am sure you probably have SOME Scriptural points, but so far, your points haven't matched the Scriptures.

You say that, but provide no evidence that the points I say, do not "match" the Scriptures I present.

your points haven't matched the Scriptures

I say Jesus is the truth.
Scripture says;
John.14
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:

You mean "Guile", and again, this is true.

Yep, you caught a typo.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up!
Post #397

Surely you are aware of the topic of disagreement and don't need to stray because something was mentioned.

I'll wait for you to give the scriptures that say what you have said.
Please repeat what you have said, and it's "matching" scripture.

Thanks,

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Butch5]

Yes. I know what you say.
You do not recognize you are claiming you believe complete opposites.
Which is why I completely disagree with what you teach.

LITERAL ~ antonyms

Antonyms for literal

• counterfeit
• dishonest
• false
• falsified
• unreal
• inaccurate

Why did you post this? Antonym mean opposite. If the opposite of literal is false then wouldn't that mean that literal is true? So, no, I believe opposite things.

It may be acceptable to announce your belief Jesus' teaching is comparable to ~
dishonest, false, falsified, unreal, inaccurate ~

However that is totally unacceptable to me.

Is it safe then to assume that you don't believe the Scriptures? I wasn't me that said Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in Parables. It was one of His apostles. No one said that Jesus' teachings were comparable to something false. However, telling a story to explain some truth isn't something false. It's a teaching tool.

What I read is simply KNOWLEDGE. What I UNDERSTAND is given me from the Lord!

I doubt that. If that was the case then it wouldn't conflict with other passages of Scripture.

If what Jesus said does not apply to you, do what is your will with the information; makes no difference to me.

Context is important. We don't just randomly apply statements made to everyone. That's not how we come to a correct understanding of the Scriptures. Jesus also said this to the Pharisees,

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.1 (Jn. 8:44 KJV)

Would you apply this to Christians or anyone other than the Pharisees?

I don't assume. I know He is the teacher, and came to earth to reveal truths, knowledge, wisdom and understanding for all inclined to receive such things.

Sure, He's the teacher. However, that doesn't mean every word He spoke was teaching. Again, why would He be teaching the Pharisees who rejected Him?

Given the context I think it's pretty clear. A person is a human being.

Your understanding is not pretty clear. Thus I asked you. Can you provide a scripture that says a "person is a human being" ?

Since we were talking about a man, and a man is a human being, it would seem that the word person in that context is a human being. It seems pretty clear to me.

A dead what?
Dead body can do nothing? Dead soul can do nothing? Dead spirit can do nothing?

As I said, "a dead anything can't do anything". Since you've claimed that the dead are alive, the onus is on you to prove your claim.


Question, you said you believe Jesus. Jesus said,


14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (Jn. 11:14 KJV)



Was Lazarus dead? Jesus didn't say, Lazarus' body is dead, He said, Lazarus is dead.

 

[Aseyesee]

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

A fire that torments, a fire that consumes or a fire that purifies?

The three main views are eternal conscious torment where the unrepentant are tormented by the fire for all eternity, annihilation where the unrepentant are punished according to wrongs committed and then annihilated by the fire, and universal reconciliation where the unrepentant go through a fire that burns impurities away leading to eventual repentance and reconciliation.

edit to add: So far almost 50% of the people in this vote have voted "eternal conscious torment." Can you explain how that view of God is different than say a father who tells his child he must love him back and if not, he will lock him in the back room away from him and he assures his child that this will be like being tormented in flames?

In a lot of ways, we choose the God we serve in the form of the perception we have of his word; which only the one whose word it is can define.

I don't think God thinks like us as much as we think he thinks like us ...

 

[Butch5]

That door swings both ways.

Again, you didn't answer.

And?
God IS LIFE.
God makes SOULS.
Souls are not LIFE, they are MADE things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living Souls.
Body's are not LIFE, they are CREATED things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living.

Souls are a body with the breath or spirit of life in them. That is made clear in Gen 2:7. However, as I pointed out. The Greek and Hebrew words for soul are translated as life in quite a few passages. And, the words for soul are used abstractly for life in Scripture.

Sure it can be confusing. But it doesn't have to be.

I agree that it doesn't have to be. However, it's been my experience that for most, theology trumps Scripture. I've found that most Christians I've dealt with will hold to preconceptions even in light of Scripture that refutes those preconceptions.



11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev. 17:11 KJV)




In this passage we find that the "life" is in the blood. The word translated life is the Hebrew word "nephesh" which is translated soul.

Life OF the flesh is in the blood.
Life IN the soul is Life from God, imparted via His breath.

The point was that the passage actually reads, 'the soul of the flesh is in the blood'. The point of the passage is that life is in the blood. And Gave the blood, the life as an atonement. Soul, in this passage, is equated with life.

2Cor.3

1. [14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

I'm not sure why you posted this passage.




21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Gen. 1:21 KJV)

God IS LIFE.
God makes SOULS.
Souls are not LIFE, they are MADE things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living Souls.
Body's are not LIFE, they are CREATED things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living.




God IS LIFE.
God makes SOULS.
Souls are not LIFE, they are MADE things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living Souls.
Body's are not LIFE, they are CREATED things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living.



God IS LIFE.
God makes SOULS.
Souls are not LIFE, they are MADE things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living Souls.
Body's are not LIFE, they are CREATED things with LIFE IN THEM, thus they are called;
Living.

Repeating your "opinion" over and over without addressing the issue just avoids dealing with the subject. The point is that the translators have translated "nephesh" and "psuche" using different words thus causing confusion about what the words actually mean.

Sure it can be confusing; particularly when men are spending their time trying to cipher what ancient Hebrews said and understood, and Greek philosophers were pondering and teaching what scripture meant and ignoring the straight forward teaching of Jesus. And of course not to forget all the psychobabble, flowery, rhetoric words men drench their speech with; AS IF it justifies their nonsense.

If you feel that way why do you read the English Bible?

Christ Jesus IS the LIFE. Christ Jesus has made ALL things. All things come into LIVING, BY LIFE entering the thing, quickening the things into living.

John.1

1. [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing madethat was made.

John.11
[25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:

John.14
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:

John 1
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1Tim.6
[13] I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things...

I'm not sure how this bears on the subject.

No.

It's clear from Gen2:7 that it's yes.

According to Gen 2: a body is formed By God from dust of the earth.
According to Gen 2: that body is quickened into living, when it receives LIFE.
According to Gen 2: Life in that body, is received from God.

and when that body receives life it is called a living soul. Thus a soul is a body with life.

No. The body is the form. The living soul is that which brings the form into living.

Read it again. It's the breath or spirit of life that brings the form to life. God breathed into the man the breath of life, not a living soul.

His body, is a possession?
His soul, is a possession?
His spirit, is a possession?
His heart, is a possession?
His mind, is a possession?

But those things are not a person?

They're parts of a person.

It absolutely does have to be literal truth, when it comes out of the mouth of the Truth!

1Pet.2

1. [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

I asked;
The point is IS there ANYTHING that Jesus spoke that you believe is NOT TRUE?

Oops, that swinging door. You didn't answer.

I've already answered your question. I believe what Jesus said. However, He spoke in parables so not every word is literal. Jesus said to the Pharisees, 'you are of your father, the devil. Did the devil literally procreate with women to give birth to the Pharisees?

John 18:
[20] Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

Guess you missed the lesson, that many Jews rejected Jesus.

Clue:

Luke 23:
[21] But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him.

Col.2

1. [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

1. 
   
   

Sure, He taught in the temple growing up. We find that when Mary came looking for Him He was in the temple teaching. However, I asked for this teaching when He was an adult. However, once again you avoided the question. How do you know that Lazarus and the Rich Man is teaching?

 

[Aseyesee]

Was Lazarus dead? Jesus didn't say, Lazarus' body is dead, He said, Lazarus is dead.

Just a few unfinished thoughts ...

It appears to Jesus, that he was asleep (was this a lie, or a way of looking at something), it wasn't until they were like, why do we need to go all the way over there to wake him up, after all he has two sisters ... It almost seems he got tired of their whinning and was like, ok he's dead alright!

The dead (who just happen to be walking) live when they hear his voice, those alive can be woken up from sleep, yet even if Lazarus was dead, Jesus said God is the God of the living. (And Paul believed he preached to the dead held captive) and not to Abraham's bosom).

Lazarus was a picture of something, no different then a tree symbolized to the one who (held the money bag) hangs himself on.

 

[Butch5]

Just a few unfinished thoughts ...

It appears to Jesus, that he was asleep (was this a lie, or a way of looking at something), it wasn't until they were like, why do we need to go all the way over there to wake him up, after all he has two sisters ... It almost seems he got tired of their whinning and was like, ok he's dead alright!

The dead (who just happen to be walking) live when they hear his voice, those alive can be woken up from sleep, yet even if Lazarus was dead, Jesus said God is the God of the living. (And Paul believed he preached to the dead held captive) and not to Abraham's bosom).

Lazarus was a picture of something, no different then a tree symbolized to the one who (held the money bag) hangs himself on.

I agree there's symbolism, that's the whole point. SBC seems to think every word is literal. Thus the question, was Lazarus dead?

 

[Aseyesee]

I agree there's symbolism, that's the whole point. SBC seems to think every word is literal. Thus the question, was Lazarus dead?

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Perception is why disciples are put out ...

 

[Butch5]

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Perception is why disciples are put out ...

Were not discussing the disciples. The question is are the dead, dead or alive?

 

[Aseyesee]

Were not discussing the disciples. The question is are the dead, dead or alive?

And what does that not have to do with perception ... a thing relative to all, including God.

Is God a God of the dead, according to Jesus, no.

Was Lazarus literally dead, according to Jesus yes (not by his words initially, just as the maid).

There is the question about whether God was God, to Lazurus, after all, Lazarus heard his voice when he was dead (which would mean the literal dead literally hear) as seemed to be apparent with Saul and Samuel.

 

[Butch5]

And what does that not have to do with perception ... a thing relative to all, including God.

Is God a God of the dead, according to Jesus, no.

Was Lazarus literally dead, according to Jesus yes (not by his words initially, just as the maid).

There is the question about whether God was God, to Lazurus, after all, Lazarus heard his voice when he was dead (which would mean the literal dead literally hear) as seemed to be apparent with Saul and Samuel.

The literal dead literally hear? So, at a viewing the person in the coffin can hear everything that is going on? Is that the argument you're making?

The problem with the argument you guys are making is that you can't prove any on it. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches that the dead are anything other than dead. Those who make the arguments that you guys are making must do so with passages from which this idea is inferred. You see, these arguments are actually logical fallacies. Their Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning. Most people in the world believe that the dead are alive. Just look at secular movies. Look at how many non Christians speak of their loved ones watching over them. It's a common belief. So, people come to the Scriptures already believing that the dead are alive. Then when they see a parable like Lazarus and the rich Man they believe that the Bible is confirming their belief. This is Circular Reasoning. The come to the Scriptures with the premise that the dead are alive, look at the Scriptures and conclude that the dead are alive. They've simply assumed the premise in the conclusion. However, there is no such teaching in the Scriptures. Gen 2 tells us how man was created and what he was created with. Scripture also tells us what happens to each of his component parts when he dies. All of the parts are accounted for so there is nothing to live on after death. This idea that the dead aren't dead entered Christianity from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. It was a common belief among the Greeks in Jesus' day.

 

[Aseyesee]

The literal dead literally hear? So, at a viewing the person in the coffin can hear everything that is going on? Is that the argument you're making?

The problem with the argument you guys are making is that you can't prove any on it. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches that the dead are anything other than dead. Those who make the arguments that you guys are making must do so with passages from which this idea is inferred. You see, these arguments are actually logical fallacies. Their Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning. Most people in the world believe that the dead are alive. Just look at secular movies. Look at how many non Christians speak of their loved ones watching over them. It's a common belief. So, people come to the Scriptures already believing that the dead are alive. Then when they see a parable like Lazarus and the rich Man they believe that the Bible is confirming their belief. This is Circular Reasoning. The come to the Scriptures with the premise that the dead are alive, look at the Scriptures and conclude that the dead are alive. They've simply assumed the premise in the conclusion. However, there is no such teaching in the Scriptures. Gen 2 tells us how man was created and what he was created with. Scripture also tells us what happens to each of his component parts when he dies. All of the parts are accounted for so there is nothing to live on after death. This idea that the dead aren't dead entered Christianity from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. It was a common belief among the Greeks in Jesus' day.

My argument is Lazarus who was dead heard God and responded.

Though he be dead yet shall he live, for the soul, it is lose it to find it, which is death, unless one doesnt believe themselves to be dead, which is perception in relationship to soul.

 

[Butch5]

My argument is Lazarus who was dead heard God and responded.

Though he be dead yet shall he live, for the soul, it is lose it to find it, which is death, unless one doesnt believe themselves to be dead, which is perception in relationship to soul.

Where exactly do you get that idea from? How exactly would a dead person hear? The brain is no longer functioning so how would it be able to receive impulses from dead ears?

If one believes anything they are not dead. It takes a functioning mind to believe, thus a living mind, thus they are not dead. Perception has nothing to do with that.

 

[Aseyesee]

Where exactly do you get that idea from? How exactly would a dead person hear? The brain is no longer functioning so how would it be able to receive impulses from dead ears?

If one believes anything they are not dead. It takes a functioning mind to believe, thus a living mind, thus they are not dead. Perception has nothing to do with that.

So you use your perception to tell me perception has nothing to do with it.

Did Jesus say Lazarus was asleep? Was he lying?

People can be alive and not hear ...

Did Lazarus respond to a voice? do the dead hear him, see him, did he preach to them?

The body is just that, dust. It can't do anything by itself, outside of decaying, let alone interpret what can be heard.