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Featured Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by surrender1, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Eternal Torment

    33 vote(s)
    42.3%
  2. Annihilation

    16 vote(s)
    20.5%
  3. Universal Reconciliation

    10 vote(s)
    12.8%
  4. Probably annihilation but still hopeful of universal reconciliation

    5 vote(s)
    6.4%
  5. Not sure

    10 vote(s)
    12.8%
  6. Other

    4 vote(s)
    5.1%
  1. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    He obviously wasn't dead because he's alive.

    No, you've given passages that are figurative that you've interpreted literally even though that interpretation goes against the Scriptures, logic, and everyday experience.
     
  2. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    No, 2 Corinthians is NOT the same "context" as 1 Corinthians 5, or 1 Cor 3:15.

    Many of God's judgments are punitive to the one being punished.... and educational to the ones observing.
    God's chastening can lead to salvation.
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Not hardly! That is the opinion of a lot of folks. It is very easy to dismiss a passage as "figurative" when it doesn't fit one's assumptions/presuppositions but all the early church fathers who quoted or referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
    • Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
    Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
    1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
    ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    • Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
    On the Resurrection.
    This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
    • Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
    In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
    • Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
    9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
    Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
    • The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
    Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
    • Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
    But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
    And the Jews believed that Isaiah 14:9-11 was factual.
    Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
    When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them.(Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10.

    Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
     
  4. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    That merely adds to the list of doctrines they got wrong. Paul warned us repeatedly NOT to trust those you call "church fathers".

    The fact is, the Scriptures, especially Jesus, taught death is "sleep";
    John 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


    And, Jesus taught that ALL the dead, both the righteous and the wicked, are "sleeping" in the graves;

    John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    This agrees VERY harmoniously with ALL the rest of Scripture;

    Dan 12:2-3 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
    Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
    Eccl 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
    Ps 146:3-4 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
    Gen 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Someone saying essentially "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" does not address or refute anything I posted. Jesus did not teach that death was sleep.
    John 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
    This is an analogy that is why Jesus' disciples misunderstood and He had to tell them plainly that Lazarus was dead. Jesus used the word "death" 17 times, "dead" 31 times, "die " 10 times, "dieth" 3 times and the word "died" 1 time in the NT. He only used the word "sleep" with death 2 times.
    Eccl 9:5 is often used out-of-context by heterodox groups as proof of false doctrines. Some form of the phrase "under the sun" occurs 27 times in Eccl. 6 times in chap. 9.

    Ecclesiastes 9:3-9
    (3) This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
    (4) For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
    (5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    (6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
    Note "under the sun" occurs in vs. 3 and vs. 6. It is clear that that the phrase "the dead know not any thing" should be understood as "the dead know not any thing under the sun" unless you want to argue that even Christians have no more reward after death.
    In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

    Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
    9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    [ . . . ]
    22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
    In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. SA i said before the Jews understood this passage to be factual.
    Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

    Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

    Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
    18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
    19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
    20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
    21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

    22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
    Eze 32:30-31
    (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
    (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
     
  6. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    I agree. It is also true that the men you call "church fathers" have no more authority than you or I,. Please don't waste our time quoting them. If you don't have Scripture .... and you don't .... then just admit it, and we can move on.
    Someone saying essentially "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" does not address or refute anything I posted.
    Your theory doesn't explain away Jesus' obvious comparison between sleep and death.
    The phrase "under the sun" addresses EVERYTHING that happens on earth. The righteous NEVER go anywhere else. NO ONE has a reward "DURING" death. Death is "no thoughts".
    Dan 12:2-3 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
    Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
    Eccl 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
    Ps 146:3-4 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
    Gen 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
     
  7. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    1) God creates all body's (with all their natural parts)
    2) God made all souls
    3) God is life and imparts life into mankind

    For a man to LIVE eternally, requires a man to have faith in the Word of God, ie called Jesus; the man to repent of his sins; the man to give his body unto death (crucified with Christ).

    For a man to LIVE eternally, requires God to make such a man WHOLE.

    A man who IS made WHOLE;
    1) By God, is forgiven his sins
    2) By God, has his flesh body, cleansed, covered, kept with Christ
    3) By God, has his soul restored (ie saved)
    4) By God, is given a new heart (circumcision of the heart)
    5) By God, is given Gods Seed
    6) By God, has his spirit quickened (born again), By Gods Seed
    7) By God, is given Gods indwelling Holy Spirit.
    8) By God, accounted in Gods records to be redeemed.

    Is a man IN HELL, a man who is MADE WHOLE and given FOREVER LIFE?

    IF so, why wouldn't scripture teach, hell is the place everyone should be on the band-wagon to want to go there?

    IF not. How is a man forever tormented IF he has not forever LIFE in Him?
     
  8. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Without context; such teaching is incomplete and misleading.

    Scripture teaches how God teaches, which is using terms familiar to men to discuss spiritual things.

    Men understand sleep, because they experience sleep. Their body rests and their (senses) continue. They breath, feel, have thoughts, etc.

    Death is like a SLEEP. Their body rests, physically buried in a grave, rotting away, back to dust. Their living soul continues experiencing their (senses).

    Death is like a SLEEP. A SLEEP is expected to be temporary, that one will rise up from the SLEEP. All BODY'S shall rise up. And a body can not rise up, unless there is a LIVING soul in the body. Thus ALL living souls shall enter back into their body's.

    Some body's shall be risen up, BECAUSE Christ Jesus has come to REDEEM them.
    Which redeem means to CLAIM them, as belonging to Him. They have a appointment with the Judge and shall receive their rewards. These body's shall become changed, and remain forever living.

    Some body's shall be risen up, BECAUSE they have an appointment with the Judge; to be Judged and receive their Sentence. These body's shall not become changed, and shall be destroyed.

    Matt.10
    1. [28]..... fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  9. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Physically Dead Body's do not talk.
    However Living soul, departed out of their physically dead body's can and do talk.

    And scripture reveals that fact.

    Scripture which reveals Father Abraham IS DEAD.

    John.8
    [53] ... our father Abraham, which is dead

    Scripture which reveal Father Abraham's speaking to another, after both were body's dead and buried.

    Luke 16
    [25]
    But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    [26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  10. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Your attempt to artificially separate the person this way matches pagan beliefs, but conflicts with Scripture and reality.
    There is ZERO science in the 'immortal soul' theories, which is MUCH LESS significant than ....
    There is ZERO Scripture in the 'immortal soul' theories.
    By contrast; Jehovah specifically explained to Adam and Eve that THEY were made of dust, and THEY returned to dust. Gen 3:19 .. for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
    By contrast; Jehovah specifically told Hezikiah that he would die, and NOT LIVE ;
    Isa 38:1 .... Thus saith Jehovah, Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
    By contrast the Scriptures state there are NO THOUGHTS in death; Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
    Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    Eccl 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do (it) with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.

    By contrast the Scriptures state that ALL of the dead are in the graves, both the good and the evil;
    John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.
     
  11. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is NOT a teaching about death! It is teaching the Abrahamic promises (Abraham's bosom) being taken from the Jews (the rich man), and given to the Gentiles (Lazarus, the beggar)... and that Israel wouldn't believe even the resurrected Jesus.
    Your attempt to pit this one parable, against the VAST quantities of Scripture that state "dead is NOT alive", is not the least bit persuasive!

    The Scriptures teach there is life AFTER death ..... NEVER is their life DURING death.
    Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished.
     
  12. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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  13. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Translator bias in the 1600s was an issue at times;
    1 Kings 17:17-24

    17 Now it came about after these things that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became sick; and his sickness was so severe that there was no breath left in him. 18 So she said to Elijah, "What do I have to do with you, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my iniquity to remembrance and to put my son to death!" 19 He said to her, "Give me your son." Then he took him from her bosom and carried him up to the upper room where he was living, and laid him on his own bed. 20 He called to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, have You also brought calamity to the widow with whom I am staying, by causing her son to die?" 21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, I pray You, let this child's life return to him." 22 The Lord heard the voice of Elijah, and the life of the child returned to him and he revived. 23 Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house and gave him to his mother; and Elijah said, "See, your son is alive." 24 Then the woman said to Elijah, "Now I know that you are a man of God and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is truth."


    OT:5316 nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):


    Translated in KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead (-ly), desire, [dis-] contented, fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, would have it.

    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


    But, truly, you SHOULD have been able to discern this, given the VAST number of Scriptures that prove there IS NO LIFE DURING DEATH, and that RESURRECTION is the ONLY hope of escaping the SLEEP of death. That ALL dead people are in the graves, sleeping in the dust, WAITING for resurrection.... either to LIFE, or to DAMNATION;
    John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
     
  14. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    ALL teaching of JESUS, ARE TRUTHS REVEALED.

    JESUS' teaching in the style of "story telling", Scripturally called a PARABLE, is JESUS fulfilling a prophecy.

    Pss.78
    1. [2] I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
    Matt 13:
    1. [34] All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
    2. [35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
    That is clearly false. Luke 16 CLEARLY speaks of a rich man AND a beggar who died.


    Luke 16
    [19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
    [20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    Attempting to LIMIT JESUS' WHOLE truth, to "your limited understanding"; IS a corruption of Scripture.

    The Disciples point blank asked WHY Jesus spoke in parables, and Scripture reveals they were Answered.

    Matt 13

    [10] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    [11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    Do you get that?

    Jesus' parables reveal TRUTHS and MYSTERIES not always known by men.

    Do you get; ? those who trust and believe Jesus' parables are being given truths and mystery knowledge ?


    Do you get; ? those who do NOT believe Jesus' parables ARE TRUTHS revealed; ARE MYSTERIES revealed; are the same WHO walked away in disbelief; are the same WHO teach AGAINST trusting and believing Jesus' parables ARE TRUTHS and MYSTERIES revealed?

    You are teaching AGAINST Jesus' own word, when you say;



    BECAUSE ~ Jesus' teaching of the rich man and Lazarus CLEARLY teaches of their death! As well as many other things, that DO NOT require a man to cipher and guess; but rather to simply READ, TRUST and BELIEVE all Jesus says IS the TRUTH.

    If one ONLY "thinks and acknowledges" in the physical sense;
    they ONLY "understand" in the physical sense.

    Scripture teaches; of DEATH in the physical sense AND the spiritual sense.

    Rev 20:5 is speaking of:
    1) physical DEAD Body's, IN their grave, (NOT in Christ.)
    2) spiritually DEAD Body's (separated from God, NOT in Christ.)
    3) living souls, (waiting in hell in the torment of hell) for 1,000 years
    4) those living souls, are spiritually DEAD, (separated from God, because they were not
    SAVED souls)

    They are waiting FOR Judgement and waiting to receive their SENTENCING.
    Rev 20:5 reveals their WAIT shall be FOR at least 1,000 years.

    IF you believed the Parable of Jesus' in Luke 16, you would KNOW, many men have physically, bodily DIED, are buried, since the beginning of mankind, and many living souls have been sent to hell, to experience LIFE WITHOUT God, and are waiting for their Judgement and Consequence.

    If you believe Scripture, you would KNOW, there is more to a man, than just his outer flesh body that other men can see. There are Spiritual things within a man, that men can not SEE.

    If you believed Scripture you would KNOW, physical things (a body) and spiritual things (a soul, a spirit), DO NOT have the SAME LIFE.

    The LIFE of the PHYSICAL FLESH BODY IS its natural BLOOD.
    Lev.17
    [11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:

    The LIFE of the LIVING SOUL IS Gods LIFE, given the man.
    Gen 2
    [7] And the LORD God ....breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

    A physically DEAD BODY, does NOT affect the LIFE of a LIVING SOUL.

    Matt.6
    1. [25] Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
    Jesus asks; And the answer is YES. Man's LIFE IS more than meat and a covering.

    ALL Body's are sentenced to DEATH.

    However NOT ALL Living souls, are sentenced;
    TO...eternal separation from God
    OR sentenced;
    TO....destruction.

    God Bless,
    SBC



     
  15. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Men who discern the Body dies and returns to the earth from whence it came....
    AND
    the Living soul departed out of a DEAD Body....and returns to God in Heaven, from whence it came.....
    OR goes to Hell, because that which rejects God has no place in His Heaven, with Him.

    IS a man who has gained wisdom and understanding of the Scripture. :clap:

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  16. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Of course. That's not being debated. The PURPOSE of the parable is.
    The parable has nothing to do with death, any more than the parable about the "pearl of great price" is investment advice!
    Does the parable include the "deaths" of both the rich man, and Lazarus? Yes.
    BUT, this is merely a mechanism of the parable, and is figurative language. It in NO WAY matches the rest of Scripture regarding death as sleep, death as no LIFE, death as no thoughts or actions.
     
  17. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    This is an unholy blend of pagan beliefs, mixed with Scripture taken out of context.

    The dead are NOT ALIVE!!
    Isa 38:1 .. Thus saith Jehovah, Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
    Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished.

    The dead are ASLEEP!
    1 Cor 15:20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the first-fruits of them that are asleep.
     
  18. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    And a lot of Christians today believe it's factual. However, that belief doesn't make it so. There's a lot of figurative language used in Scripture. In Revelation Jesus is seen a lamb with 7 eyes having been slain. Death is seen as riding a horse. We see that Jesus used parables to speak to the Pharisees, which is who He was speaking to when He gave the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. How do we know it's a parable? Dead people don't speak.

    In addition to the obvious, the idea that the parable is literal doesn't even fit into the context of the passage.
     
  19. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Actually, a "Living" soul doesn't depart the body. The body is a part of the "living" soul. Therefore without the body, there is no longer a "living" soul. The idea of living apart from the body came into Christianity through Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. It's not a Biblical teaching. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man is just that, a parable. It's not a literal event. It's actually a rebuke of the Jewish leadership and the priesthood.
     
  20. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Good. Then of course, EVERYTHING said in Jesus' parables, we can trust IS TRUE! :)

    Whoops! Uh oh, Drats....you just undid, what you just claimed! :(

    The Parable has EVERYTHING to do with what IS spoken IN the Parable.
    The PURPOSE of Jesus' parables, is clearly revealed BY JESUS Himself.

    Correct. And precisely WHY, your comment;

    Is not true.

    UH, No! Man-made ideas and philosophies DO NOT supersede Jesus' Spoken Word.

    It is obvious you are trying to convey you DO NOT believe Jesus' parables are FACTUAL truths just as the words stand.

    I TRUST JESUS IS the TRUTH, and what He has spoken IS the TRUTH, "without" changing, undoing with "buts" and giving a "personal opinion"; AS IF, a man has the power to supersede Jesus' own spoken words.

    Understanding (according to God) is the KEY to understanding Scripture.

    Only God "opens" a man to His understanding.

    You are attempting to give your mindful understanding, then explain with your mindful thoughts, that Jesus is simply telling a story and the reader is left to guesswork and opinions to try and figure out what Jesus means.....WHICH is NOT what scripture teaches.

    I'll stick with; Jesus is the Truth and what He has spoken is the Truth.
    I am quite satisfied, that I do not have to guess, wonder, ponder, philosophize, etc. about what Jesus means. I am already told and believe, EVERYTHING Jesus said IS TRUE...Period!
     
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