Eternal Security

[Duvduv]

There are some things you don't understand. In the Jewish tradition there are the original sources which are the books of the Bible called the Tanach (an acronym for Torah, Navi/Prophets and Ketuvim/Writings). There were also oral traditions in the midrashic writings, and of course what is brought as historical material in the Talmud. One of the statements made in the Talmud is to clarify what happened in the book of Samuel, which is that David did not actually sin. He was a very holy person, and holy individuals are held to a higher standard than ordinary people, such that even an action that appears improper simply because of circumstances may be considered a reason for divine retribution. This occurs in many cases in Biblical history. The Talmud states "whoever claims that David actually sinned is making a mistake." After all, even Moses himself was subject to divine retribution simply for having struck the rock to bring out the water when he was supposed to have spoken to it. His sister Miriam, the prophetess, was subject to divine retribution of the spiritual disease called Tsaraat (incorrectly identified as leprosy) simply for having wondered aloud to Aaron about Moses separating from his wife. So it isn't unique to King David. But I don't want to move away from the focus of this thread, which is how anyone prior to the existence of Jesus under Original Sin had any salvation without Jesus. This is nowhere explained in Christian scripture.

 

[chilehed]

I have seen many attempts to explain how eternal security in the atonement of Jesus is no license to sin or not to repent of one's misdeeds, however the paradox remains. For if Jesus paid the penalty, why should a person worry about repenting, confessing about sinning since either way he is admitted to heaven?. In addition, how can one even ever know if ones faith is satisfactory to merit the atonement of Jesus since there is no empirical way of confirming it objectively?

Yes, these are among the serious problems with Protestant theology.

 

[Duvduv]

Could someone briefly clarify the Catholic view of salvation, grace and works in comparison with the Protestant view?
And how do Protestants deal with verses in the New Testament rhat suggest the need for works for salvation? Thanks

 

[Sanoy]

There are some things you don't understand. In the Jewish tradition there are the original sources which are the books of the Bible called the Tanach (an acronym for Torah, Navi/Prophets and Ketuvim/Writings). There were also oral traditions in the midrashic writings, and of course what is brought as historical material in the Talmud. One of the statements made in the Talmud is to clarify what happened in the book of Samuel, which is that David did not actually sin. He was a very holy person, and holy individuals are held to a higher standard than ordinary people, such that even an action that appears improper simply because of circumstances may be considered a reason for divine retribution. This occurs in many cases in Biblical history. The Talmud states "whoever claims that David actually sinned is making a mistake." After all, even Moses himself was subject to divine retribution simply for having struck the rock to bring out the water when he was supposed to have spoken to it. His sister Miriam, the prophetess, was subject to divine retribution of the spiritual disease called Tsaraat (incorrectly identified as leprosy) simply for having wondered aloud to Aaron about Moses separating from his wife. So it isn't unique to King David. But I don't want to move away from the focus of this thread, which is how anyone prior to the existence of Jesus under Original Sin had any salvation without Jesus. This is nowhere explained in Christian scripture.

I understand all about that, but there is no one in the Talmud who can speak first hand as to what happened in the reign of Kind David. It not only contradicts what the book of Samuel says, it leaves it as a book of lies. The Talmuds even contradict themselves, it's just commentary. Tanakh > Talmud

Adultery and Murder are not actions that appear improper, they are improper. David committed Pesha. Some Rabbi, writing centuries later doesn't change that fact. Being called a Rabbi doesn't give you the ability to pronounce the thoughts in your head as truth, especially when they directly contradict what scripture says. After G-d left the second temple and it was destroyed did it get rebuilt after Rabbinic Judaism? No, the location of the Temple still remains ruled by the gods of other nations. Why should it be rebuilt when Rabbinic Judaism is even further apostate from when G-d left the second temple. It twists scripture, and makes a liar of it.

 

[Duvduv]

I'm sorry. We're not talking about "some rabbi." Any more than you would want to say that Paul was someone whose existence has no corroboration in any Jewish text of the period
We are discussing an oral Jewish traditional teaching incorporated in writing.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm sorry. We're not talking about "some rabbi." Any more than you would want to say that Paul was someone whose existence has no corroboration in any Jewish text of the period
We are discussing an oral Jewish traditional teaching incorporated in writing.

If you are trying to understand the Bible and eternal security, you are going to take this seriously off topic by including the Talmud and oral traditions because what is in the Bible is the Old Testament. Period.

So are you sticking with the original topic and are going to start another thread or ??

 

[Duvduv]

LetdL get back to discussing the achievement of grace and salvation according to the New Testament before Jesus. But since according to the Gospel of John Jesus around since the beginning, where was his sacrifice for sin before the crucifixion???

 

[Sanoy]

I'm sorry. We're not talking about "some rabbi." Any more than you would want to say that Paul was someone whose existence has no corroboration in any Jewish text of the period
We are discussing an oral Jewish traditional teaching incorporated in writing.

What Rabbi says David only appeared to be an adulterer and murderer, and who is he that we should believe him over scripture which says the opposite? What Rabbi says G-d killed Davids son, brought calamity on his house, and infidelity among his wives because he remained faithful. I would like to know his name since he speaks for the adversary.

 

[Duvduv]

It is a tradition recorded from oral traditions in the Talmud when it was redacted around the fifth century. There many background stories recorded in the Talmud and midrashim on many subjects.

 

[Sanoy]

It is a tradition recorded from oral traditions in the Talmud when it was redacted around the fifth century. There many background stories recorded in the Talmud and midrashim on many subjects.

So you don't even know his name, but you believe him over scripture?

 

[Duvduv]

I don't think this is the right forum for this discussion

 

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as congregations birthed about in ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry.

One way to test to see if you have fell in with the Sardisean crowd is to threaten their salvation.

The Lord Jesus himself also addresses this...

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3

 

[Duvduv]

It seems anyway that the Wesleyans have a problem with their notion of lost grace / salvation. It leaves a person in a perennial state of anxiety not knowing at any given moment whether he is still under grace and salvation simply because there is no empirical way of knowing it. Whereas the Baptists simply assume that apparently no matter what a person does he is saved once he had faith the first time. At least the Catholics and Anglicans assume that salvation/grace is a continuous process and depends on repentance and compliance with observing commandments/sacraments. I suppose Lutherans are somewhere between Catholics and Baptists when it comes to their status of salvation.

 

[rockytopva]

We use to have a Methodist preacher who was pastor of a Baptist church come to our Pentecostal Holiness church to hold revival. People would ask him all the time how it was that a Methodist could pastor a Baptist church. His answer was the way he saw it the only difference between the two was that the Baptist did not believe in backsliding but the Methodist practiced it!

The advantage as I see it is that the Baptist are more steadfast, but the Methodist revival, if you can find one, richer in spiritual experience.

 

[Duvduv]

Still, I wonder how the Methodists determine whether they've repented enough to be saved, and how the Baptists feel about the fact that they get heaven and salvation regardless of behavior. I guess I don't know how the Pentecostals will think, probably it depends if they FEEL saved and speak in tongues and other so-called gifts.

 

[rockytopva]

Still, I wonder how the Methodists determine whether they've repented enough to be saved, and how the Baptists feel about the fact that they get heaven and salvation regardless of behavior. I guess I don't know how the Pentecostals will think, probably it depends if they FEEL saved and speak in tongues and other so-called gifts.

William Seymour was the architect of the Pentecostal revival. When the Holy Spirit did fall....

"They shouted three days and three nights. It was Easter season. The people came from everywhere. By the next morning there was no way of getting near the house. As people came in they would fall under God's power; and the whole city was stirred. They shouted until the foundation of the house gave way, but no one was hurt."

The Holy Spirit reportedly fell in 1906 at Azusa Street Mission in Los Angeles, CA. Smith Wigglesworth testified of receiving it in 1907. This is a revival that spread very fast around the world! Interesting thing is that William Seymour built his doctrine around the metaphor of the old Hebrew temple....

1. The Outer Court - Justification - Faith to enter in.
2. The Altar - Salvation through the cross at Calvary.
3. The Laver - The clean effects of sanctification.
4. Table of Showbread – Daily into the word of God
5. Light at the Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, joy, grace, love, warmth, etc. With sanctification came a sweet spirit!
6. The Golden Incense Altar - Prayer and Praise meetings.
7. The Holy of Holies - The Shekinah Glory and Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

When the old Hebrews of old got this right the Holy Spirit would fall in like manner....

13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord;
14 So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of God. - 2 Chronicles 5

And I also did a short video tribute....

 

[rockytopva]

If my interpretation on the seven churches is correct the Lord had this to say to the Wesleyan movement...

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. - Revelation 3:12

"No more go out." Like stories out of the book of Judges we were in and out of revival. But the Lord say, "him that overcometh." I believe therefore we can be out of revival and still retain our salvation. But there are limits, I believe, as an Arminian, that we can stretch the grace of God in our lives.

 

[Duvduv]

How does this explain the ability of Methodists or Baptists to empirically prove or determine their own salvation?

 

[rockytopva]

How does this explain the ability of Methodists or Baptists to empirically prove or determine their own salvation?

Experience... And I have two testimonial threads....

The Life of David Sullins
The Life of George Clark Rankin

I have captured the old RW Schambach revivals and made a youtube site out of them, which has done pretty good at 1.2 million views....

rockytopva

RW Schambach would be invited to preach at Jewish Synagogues and would preach there like he would at any other church.

 

[Duvduv]

I have read articles that present NT verses that contradiction the concept of "perseverance of the saints" or guaranteed salvation. I am curious as to how the supporters of the concept refute these claims regarding these verses.