Eternal Security

[Thisis Thend]

I have seen many attempts to explain how eternal security in the atonement of Jesus is no license to sin or not to repent of one's misdeeds, however the paradox remains. For if Jesus paid the penalty, why should a person worry about repenting, confessing about sinning since either way he is admitted to heaven?. In addition, how can one even ever know if ones faith is satisfactory to merit the atonement of Jesus since there is no empirical way of confirming it objectively?

So what is it that your trying to say? Are you saying there is a paradox? Are you seeing that something just DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE? Certainly you are! And certainly I see the same thing as you do.

And God gave us our mind for a reason. He gave us our reasoning for a purpose. He gave us the ability to think things through, so that we can understand. And what is at the very root of your confusion? It is this; "I believe Jesus Christ died for my sins, so that I believe I am saved!" Or; "By Jesus Christ, I am already good to go. I am certain I will someday enter Heaven." Yes, that is the very thing that causes the confusion, or the thing that DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. For without that belief, it WOULD make sense. Without that belief, people would stand in mortal fear of God, and in extreme fear for their salvation. Without that belief, they would be trying harder not to sin, and repenting more and more often when they did sin.

So, I would suggest, using the reason and rational thinking that God gave you. I would suggest, questioning this very belief. I know for myself, when something does not make any sense to me, but then I see a way that it does make sense, I am often persuaded go with believing the thing that does make sense. This is because my rational reasoning mind tells me not to believe things that don't make sense.

Now I suppose you have heard (and are about to hear), many explanations as to how it is that we are saved, but still concern ourselves with sinning. But if you look closely, and think them through with a sober mind of reason, you will find that none of them make any sense!

 

[Tayla]

For if Jesus paid the penalty, why should a person worry about repenting, confessing about sinning since either way he is admitted to heaven?

Sounds like a description of someone who had not really repented, and who does not really desire to be like Christ.

 

[Tayla]

how can one even ever know if ones faith is satisfactory to merit the atonement of Jesus since there is no empirical way of confirming it objectively?

I suppose your love for Jesus would overwhelm your worries about whether your faith was sufficient. The heart would overwhelm the head. For example, I don't worry about whether my wife loves me; I know the answer, even when she seems annoyed with me.

 

[dreadnought]

I have seen many attempts to explain how eternal security in the atonement of Jesus is no license to sin or not to repent of one's misdeeds, however the paradox remains. For if Jesus paid the penalty, why should a person worry about repenting, confessing about sinning since either way he is admitted to heaven?. In addition, how can one even ever know if ones faith is satisfactory to merit the atonement of Jesus since there is no empirical way of confirming it objectively?

We are saved from what Satan can do to us, but the Lord's discipline can be severe.

 

[Sanoy]

But ultimately a person gets into heaven whether he is a saint or a mass murderer as long as he testifies that he believes in Jesus.... anything else presents a theological contradiction.

David committed Adultery and Murder, and all he said was "I have sinned against the Lord" will he get into Heaven?

 

[redleghunter]

I am sorry, I don't see how your citations resolve the contradiction. If salvation provides a guarantee of heaven, then the rest is irrelevant. Even the Arminian view doesn't resolve it because no one can empirically know whether he is still under grace or not..

How much of the NT have you actually studied?

 

[A_Thinker]

David committed Adultery and Murder, and all he said was "I have sinned against the Lord" will he get into Heaven?

Davd wrote the entirety of the 51st Psalm in repentance for his sin with Bathsheba.

David knew and confessed that he was wrong ... and begged for the Lord's forgiveness.

David also suffered in his personal life ... as a consequence of his sin.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Davd wrote the entirety of the 51st Psalm in repentance for his sin with Bathsheba.

David knew and confessed that he was wrong ... and begged for the Lord's forgiveness.

David also suffered in his personal life ... as a consequence of his sin.

I believe that God took his son with Bathsheba.

 

[A_Thinker]

I have read all the replies, but the bottom line is simple: regardless of one's behavior one still goes to heaven.

Being on the path to heaven ... affects one's behavior ...

 

[A_Thinker]

Davd wrote the entirety of the 51st Psalm in repentance for his sin with Bathsheba.

David knew and confessed that he was wrong ... and begged for the Lord's forgiveness.

David also suffered in his personal life ... as a consequence of his sin.

I believe that God took his son with Bathsheba.

And promised David that he would have constant drama in his household ...

* David's eldest son Amnon raped his half-sister Tamar.
* Tamar's full brother Absolom killed Amnon.
* Absolom redelled against David (for his leniency with Amnon) and chased him out of Jerusalem.
* Absolom was killed by David's men, as they proceeded to recapture Jerusalem
* David's son, Adonijah, attempted to take the throne which was promised to Solomon.
* Solomon had Adonijah killed for his attempt to usurp the throne.

 

[Duvduv]

David committed Adultery and Murder, and all he said was "I have sinned against the Lord" will he get into Heaven?

Quite an interesting theological question. Because if it has been possible to acquire salvation to heaven without Jesus, then in fact it places into question the whole doctrine of Christianity.
As it happens this is not a big deal in Judaism at all. In fact according to tradition David committed no sin in this situation but was judged AS IF he had. The circumstances APPEARED superficially to be sinful, but in fact were not.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Quite an interesting theological question. Because if it has been possible to acquire salvation to heaven without Jesus, then in fact it places into question the whole doctrine of Christianity.
As it happens this is not a big deal in Judaism at all. In fact according to tradition David committed no sin in this situation but was judged AS IF he had. The circumstances APPEARED superficially to be sinful, but in fact were not.

I don't think that's true.

One of God's commandments was 'Thou shalt not kill' and David knew this.

I haven't met a Jewish person yet who would say what you said. It is a first.

 

[A_Thinker]

David committed Adultery and Murder, and all he said was "I have sinned against the Lord" will he get into Heaven?

Quite an interesting theological question. Because if it has been possible to acquire salvation to heaven without Jesus, then in fact it places into question the whole doctrine of Christianity.

As it happens this is not a big deal in Judaism at all. In fact according to tradition David committed no sin in this situation but was judged AS IF he had. The circumstances APPEARED superficially to be sinful, but in fact were not.

Why then does David confess and repent of that sin ???

 

[Duvduv]

They have not studied Jewish sourced. Regardless, the Christian scriptures have no explanation for salvation and forgiveness since Adam until the first century when Jesus appeared.

 

[Radagast]

I have seen many attempts to explain how eternal security in the atonement of Jesus is no license to sin or not to repent of one's misdeeds, however the paradox remains.

The definitive answer is Romans 6.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Why then does David confess and repent of that sin ???

In the hope that God would restore the “ joy “ of his salavation.Actual salvation was never in question.Just like us, Gods Grace covered his sins and David was considered righteous because of his faith.Davids earthly life was ruined.....people accuse OSAS Believers as desiring a life of sin because they can get away with it.I wonder if David felt like he got away with anything.

 

[redleghunter]

I have read all the replies, but the bottom line is simple: regardless of one's behavior one still goes to heaven.
And yet how can a person even have eternal security since there is no way in this world of knowing ehrthwr or not the faith was sufficient to merit salvation and heaven??

I highly recommend you read the entire epistle from Paul to the Ephesians.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 1 - Complete Jewish Bible

6 chapters but if you truly want to gain an understanding this is a start.

Salvation through Jesus Christ is not just a get out of jail free card. It's not about the individual but for the Glory of God. Why did God choose Abraham and by extension Israel as His chosen people/nation?

If you can answer that question, it will become apparent why God still chooses today.

 

[redleghunter]

I am sorry, I don't see how your citations resolve the contradiction. If salvation provides a guarantee of heaven, then the rest is irrelevant. Even the Arminian view doesn't resolve it because no one can empirically know whether he is still under grace or not..

You are operating from a false premise.

Abraham was given the promise of the land in Canaan and that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars. Did he just party it up at Sodom knowing he would receive the promise? No he walked with God and obeyed Him.

Remember the covenant with Abraham was unconditional unlike the Sinai covenant which was conditional on Israel's obedience to the Law.

 

[redleghunter]

No, I didn't miss that one either. The problem remains.

Actually the answer is in the Prophets, Ezekiel to be specific.

Ezekiel 36: NKJV
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

 

[Sanoy]

Quite an interesting theological question. Because if it has been possible to acquire salvation to heaven without Jesus, then in fact it places into question the whole doctrine of Christianity.
As it happens this is not a big deal in Judaism at all. In fact according to tradition David committed no sin in this situation but was judged AS IF he had. The circumstances APPEARED superficially to be sinful, but in fact were not.

This passage is exactly as we should expect for Christianity. In 2 Samuel 12:13 G-d says he put away Davids sin, not that it was forgiven. Where did that sin go? As I said in the other thread, it will go to Jesus. Without Blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Some parts of Judiaism have apostatized from the original course over the centuries, in some cases even allowing the word of the Rabbi to usurp scripture, such as this. There is no exegetical way to come to that conclusion, it is a complete fabrication that calls scripture a lie. It also makes G-d a monster in that he kills Davids son, brings calamity on his house and infidelity among his wives for a sin David never committed. Does G-d reward faithfulness with calamity?