Eternal Security

[Hog Red]

i think i may have lost my salvation reading this thread.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

As for the matter of losing salvation, I can quote one verse out of many others that say a Christian cannot lose his salvation. From the Book of John,

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:​

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is
able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.​

10:30 I and my Father are one.

There are many people who want to argue that Christians can lose their salvation despite scripture such as the one I referenced above. In other words, they teach that one from day to another, Christians can lose their salvation, gain their salvation, and lose it again. They enjoy saying that no man or thing (Romans, Chapter 8) can separate us from the love of God, but we can take outself out of the love of God, i.e. out of the salvation of God. You have to be discerning in these times.

There are many people who lack a Bible college or seminary education who want to argue all sorts of non-biblical doctrines and who claim that a Christian can lose his salvation one day and get it back the next, but the Bible teaches that once a man has lost his salvation, it is lost forever. Anyone who believes that God will continue to hold in His hand a Christian who has become an apostate needs to read what is written in Isa. 43 about the people in the hand of God. In v. 13, God says,

13. I am God, and also henceforth I am He;
there is no one who can deliver from my hand;
I work and who can hinder it?

However, Christians who read the rest of the chapter learn the fate of those very same people,

27. Your first ancestor sinned,
and your interpreters transgressed against me.
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling. (NRSV)

The very people whom God had held in His hand were given over by God to “utter destruction.”

 

[phoenixdem]

From your perspective, the Bible does not teach infant baptism, but from the perspective of Roman Catholicism and main-line Protestant theology, it does. Indeed, if I were to be placed into a debate on infant baptism in which the arguments could be based solely upon the Bible, I would be swimming upstream against a very strong current if I were to be on the side against infant baptism. Personally, I do not believe in infant baptism, but exclusively in the baptism of believers; and for that reason, I am a Baptist. However, that belief is based upon my personal experience and upon my observations as a Christian much more than it is upon the Bible. This is a Baptist forum, and therefore I shall not present the scriptural case for the baptism of infants, but I will say that anyone who is familiar with the New Testament knows for himself the Biblical foundation for belief in infant baptism, whether they agree with it or not. For those who are not familiar with the New Testament, I suggest that they study it. Furthermore, the basic teachings of Calvinism regarding Romans chapter five must be rejected if one is to come to the conclusion that the Bible does not teach infant baptism.



Numerous passages from the Bible pertinent to the doctrine of eternal security have been discussed in this thread, and it has been shown that not a single one of them teaches the doctrine of eternal security. Furthermore, it has been well documented that the doctrine of eternal security was given birth in the 16th century as a deductive conclusion based upon the false premise that God is absolutely sovereign. Simply saying that the Bible teaches the doctrine of eternal security when it has been shown that it does not does nothing to prove the assertion.



The Saint Joseph Edition of the New American Bible with the second edition of the New Testament (1986) has the following note on Romans 3:21-31,

These verses provide a clear statement of Paul’s “gospel,” i.e., the principle of justification by faith in Christ. God has found a means of rescuing humanity from its desperate plight: Paul’s general term for this divine initiative is the righteousness of God (21). Divine mercy declares the guilty innocent and makes them so. God does this not as a result of the law, but apart from it (21), and not because of any merit in human beings but through their forgiveness of their sins (24), in virtue of the redemption wrought in Christ Jesus for all who believe (22.24-25). God has manifested his righteousness in the coming of Jesus Christ, whose saving activity inaugurates a new era in human history.
​

The same Roman Catholic Bible has the following note on Rom. 4:3,

Jas 2, 24 appears to conflict with Paul’s statement. However, James combats the error of extremists who used the doctrine of justification through faith as a screen for moral self-determination. Paul discusses the subject of holiness in greater detail than does James and beginning with ch 6 shows how justification through faith introduces one to the gift of a new life in Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.
​

To state that Arminians teach salvation by works is either to willfully state a falsehood, or to demonstrate one’s ignorance of Arminian theology.

Neither John Calvin or a Romish Pope died on the cross for man's salvation. It is Christianity we should be teaching and that comes from the Holy Bible, not from tradition or a Pope's thoughts on the scripture.

 

[JuJube]

I wonder how many times Paul lost his salvation since he never attained perfection.

 

[His_disciple3]

There are many people who lack a Bible college or seminary education who want to argue all sorts of non-biblical doctrines and who claim that a Christian can lose his salvation one day and get it back the next, but the Bible teaches that once a man has lost his salvation, it is lost forever. Anyone who believes that God will continue to hold in His hand a Christian who has become an apostate needs to read what is written in Isa. 43 about the people in the hand of God. In v. 13, God says,

13. I am God, and also henceforth I am He;
there is no one who can deliver from my hand;
I work and who can hinder it?

However, Christians who read the rest of the chapter learn the fate of those very same people,

27. Your first ancestor sinned,
and your interpreters transgressed against me.
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling. (NRSV)

The very people whom God had held in His hand were given over by God to “utter destruction.”

as I have stated and will state again for your sake, "Utter destruction" can mean alot of things except Hell. death can be a physical death and not a spiritual death, when ever death, or to die or dead is in scripture it is not always a spiritual death , however this utter destruction is referring to the nation/tribe of Jacob and they were allowed to be utterly destroyed as a tribe, this is nothing about salvation, my body can be utterly destroyed but my soul preserved. even in moses time when the golden calf was made God gave israel another chance as a nation/tribe. and Moses said if you want to follow God come over here, and if not stay where you are and the earth opened up and swallow up those they stayed, but again show me in the Bible where these people were cast into hell.

if the utter destruction that jacob received was damnation then please explain this one, Oh Lord how many times will I have to post this one verse?? :

1 Corinthians 5:5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

now seeing your misunderstanding of "UTTER DESTRUCTION" I still will hang onto to that what I have been promised that I will never perish, and That I am sealed until the day of redemption, oh yeah let's not forget that His Mercy endureths FOREVER !!!!!! Thank you Jesus for not leaving my Salvation up to me, PTL!!!!!! HALLELUJAH!!!!!

 

[His_disciple3]

I wonder how many times Paul lost his salvation since he never attained perfection.

let me count the TIMES : 0 !!!!!!!!!!

at least that is what the Bible shows, I believe that would be the same number for either of the disciples also: even Peter!!!!!

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Neither John Calvin or a Romish Pope died on the cross for man's salvation. It is Christianity we should be teaching and that comes from the Holy Bible, not from tradition or a Pope's thoughts on the scripture.

True Christian teaching comes from a true interpretation of the Bible. New and novel interpretations of the Bible are not to be trusted. Indeed, any interpretation of the Bible that was first conceived in the 16the century or later and which expressly contradicts the interpretation of the Bible for 1,500 year is the consequence of interpreting the Bible within the framework of a new and radically different culture.

People who believe in new and novel doctrines like the doctrine of eternal security would do well to study the factors that have caused them to interpret the Bible is a manner that expressly contradicts the interpretation of it by the very early Fathers of the Church who were native Greek speakers and who lived in the same Hellenistic culture as the Apostolic Christians.

Let us never forget that accurately interpreting literature is dependent upon a thorough and accurate understanding of the time, culture, and language in which it was written. Accurately grasping the social, political, and religious views of the author and his intended audience is essential to understanding what the author wished to convey to his readers; and accurately grasping these things is dependent upon a very detailed knowledge of the author’s vocabulary and phraseology. It is for these reasons that our pastor’s spend much of their lives studying the Biblical languages and the cultural and religious background of each of the books in the Bible lest they misunderstand them and inaccurately preach them to their congregations.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

as I have stated and will state again for your sake, "Utter destruction" can mean alot of things except Hell. death can be a physical death and not a spiritual death, when ever death, or to die or dead is in scripture it is not always a spiritual death , however this utter destruction is referring to the nation/tribe of Jacob and they were allowed to be utterly destroyed as a tribe, this is nothing about salvation, my body can be utterly destroyed but my soul preserved. even in moses time when the golden calf was made God gave israel another chance as a nation/tribe. and Moses said if you want to follow God come over here, and if not stay where you are and the earth opened up and swallow up those they stayed, but again show me in the Bible where these people were cast into hell.

if the utter destruction that jacob received was damnation then please explain this one, Oh Lord how many times will I have to post this one verse?? :

1 Corinthians 5:5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

now seeing your misunderstanding of "UTTER DESTRUCTION" I still will hang onto to that what I have been promised that I will never perish, and That I am sealed until the day of redemption, oh yeah let's not forget that His Mercy endureths FOREVER !!!!!! Thank you Jesus for not leaving my Salvation up to me, PTL!!!!!! HALLELUJAH!!!!!

Utter destruction means utter destruction—it does not mean that the tribes were utterly destroyed but the people making up the tribes were not. The Jews who were securely in the hand of God but became apostate, renounced their faith in the only true God, and worshipped and served deities of wood and stone are not going to spend eternity in heaven with the holy and righteous God—they are going to spend eternity in hell; and so will Christians who become apostate.

The seal of which you write in your post is the seal of ownership—giving the owner of the property thus sealed the right to retain, sell, lease, give away, or destroy the property. God’s mercy endures forever, but his mercy on each individual is conditional upon that individual remaining faithful to Him. We see this to be true time and again in the Old Testament, and from the Old Testament we are to learn a lesson regarding God’s mercy to us, and our responsibility to be faithful to God.


Romans 11:16. If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18. do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21. for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. (NASB, 1995)

1 Cor. 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (NASB, 1995)

 

[phoenixdem]

I wonder how many times Paul lost his salvation since he never attained perfection.

Yes, Paul had quite a time with his imperfections, but he knew that The Lord was the victory over his corrupted nature.

 

[phoenixdem]

True Christian teaching comes from a true interpretation of the Bible. New and novel interpretations of the Bible are not to be trusted. Indeed, any interpretation of the Bible that was first conceived in the 16the century or later and which expressly contradicts the interpretation of the Bible for 1,500 year is the consequence of interpreting the Bible within the framework of a new and radically different culture.

People who believe in new and novel doctrines like the doctrine of eternal security would do well to study the factors that have caused them to interpret the Bible is a manner that expressly contradicts the interpretation of it by the very early Fathers of the Church who were native Greek speakers and who lived in the same Hellenistic culture as the Apostolic Christians.

Let us never forget that accurately interpreting literature is dependent upon a thorough and accurate understanding of the time, culture, and language in which it was written. Accurately grasping the social, political, and religious views of the author and his intended audience is essential to understanding what the author wished to convey to his readers; and accurately grasping these things is dependent upon a very detailed knowledge of the author’s vocabulary and phraseology. It is for these reasons that our pastor’s spend much of their lives studying the Biblical languages and the cultural and religious background of each of the books in the Bible lest they misunderstand them and inaccurately preach them to their congregations.

Are you saying that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church officials were correct? The writers of the Holy Bible knew what they were writing. It came from the Holy Spirit. The teachings were hijacked and tradition and opinions of the Roman Catholic leaders were taught. The Reformation restored the proper teachings of the Holy Bible that were taught in the beginning of the Church Age.

 

[NullByte]

A very nice discussion indeed. I was raised Baptist ever since I came out of my mom’s womb. I didn't challenge my belief till meeting some wonderful people through the facility I attended college, and then some places I have been contracted to work. Quite frankly I do not know what to believe. I am no bible scholar, nor have I attended a theology school.

Some days I believe that my salvation is safe, and then others not so much. I am a sinner who believes in Jesus Christ, yet I fail every day. I am either scared to pray in front of people I work with, or I am fighting lust sometimes losing, trying to not commit idolatry with common habits, and the list goes on and on.

I always ask for forgiveness, but I still stumble, all while fearing for my soul.

PrincetonGuy from what I have read so far you are more the Armenian than most here, and you seem to be very knowledgeable. You said that if someone loses their salvation, they can never gain it back? How do we identify these people who have lost their salvation? I have a father who went to church as a child, was saved and baptized, but he doesn't go to church anymore, nor is he a spiritual leader of the house. If you were to ask him, he would profess his belief in Jesus, but if you didn't ask him you may not realize it. Has he lost his salvation?

I have meet many Armenians who believe that losing salvation is as simple as taking their eyes of the lord and sinning; I often wonder how someone can have peace while living in human body?

 

[phoenixdem]

Utter destruction means utter destruction—it does not mean that the tribes were utterly destroyed but the people making up the tribes were not. The Jews who were securely in the hand of God but became apostate, renounced their faith in the only true God, and worshipped and served deities of wood and stone are not going to spend eternity in heaven with the holy and righteous God—they are going to spend eternity in hell; and so will Christians who become apostate.

The seal of which you write in your post is the seal of ownership—giving the owner of the property thus sealed the right to retain, sell, lease, give away, or destroy the property. God’s mercy endures forever, but his mercy on each individual is conditional upon that individual remaining faithful to Him. We see this to be true time and again in the Old Testament, and from the Old Testament we are to learn a lesson regarding God’s mercy to us, and our responsibility to be faithful to God.


Romans 11:16. If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18. do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21. for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. (NASB, 1995)

1 Cor. 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (NASB, 1995)

These verses are not saying that each one was baptized by the Holy Spirit unto Christ. They were one with Moses and went through the same trials as mentioned. No where does it say that every Hebrew became a child of God. Witness their actions in the desert. Do their actions look like a child of God. I don't think so.

 

[phoenixdem]

A very nice discussion indeed. I was raised Baptist ever since I came out of my mom’s womb. I didn't challenge my belief till meeting some wonderful people through the facility I attended college, and then some places I have been contracted to work. Quite frankly I do not know what to believe. I am no bible scholar, nor have I attended a theology school.

Some days I believe that my salvation is safe, and then others not so much. I am a sinner who believes in Jesus Christ, yet I fail every day. I am either scared to pray in front of people I work with, or I am fighting lust sometimes losing, trying to not commit idolatry with common habits, and the list goes on and on.

I always ask for forgiveness, but I still stumble, all while fearing for my soul.

PrincetonGuy from what I have read so far you are more the Armenian than most here, and you seem to be very knowledgeable. You said that if someone loses their salvation, they can never gain it back? How do we identify these people who have lost their salvation? I have a father who went to church as a child, was saved and baptized, but he doesn't go to church anymore, nor is he a spiritual leader of the house. If you were to ask him, he would profess his belief in Jesus, but if you didn't ask him you may not realize it. Has he lost his salvation?

I have meet many Armenians who believe that losing salvation is as simple as taking their eyes of the lord and sinning; I often wonder how someone can have peace while living in human body?

Having the ability to take yourself out from the salvation of God must put a terrible sense of paranoia and guilt on the person who believes that. They have put themselves under the Law and must work for their salvation which God assures us is a free gift from Him and cannot be gained from any work of man. Salvation is unmerited and comes from God, not man.

 

[His_disciple3]

These verses are not saying that each one was baptized by the Holy Spirit unto Christ. They were one with Moses and went through the same trials as mentioned. No where does it say that every Hebrew became a child of God. Witness their actions in the desert. Do their actions look like a child of God. I don't think so.

good point

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Are you saying that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church officials were correct? The writers of the Holy Bible knew what they were writing. It came from the Holy Spirit. The teachings were hijacked and tradition and opinions of the Roman Catholic leaders were taught. The Reformation restored the proper teachings of the Holy Bible that were taught in the beginning of the Church Age.

The teachings that distinguish Roman Catholic theology from Protestant theology were not conceived until well after the Council of Nicaea in the fourth century. We do not have any writings from this early period in which any passages in the Bible were interpreted to teach eternal security, but we do have many writings from this early period in which passages in the Bible were interpreted to teach conditional security. During the time between the Council of Nicaea and the 16th century, we have very numerous writings in which conditional security is taught, but we do not have any at all in which eternal security is so much as mentioned. If anyone of prominence had taught it, even if that person’s writings had eventually become lost, we would expect to find a number of theologians arguing against that view—but we do not. We do not find any extracanonical evidence of any kind that anyone interpreted any passage in the Bible to teach eternal security until the 16th century. Therefore, to say that “the Reformation restored the proper teaching of the Holy Bible is incorrect—what it did do is introduce to the Church five new and novel doctrines, all of which were given birth as a consequence of conclusions drawn through deductive reasoning based upon the faulty premise that God is absolutely sovereign. That premise is refuted by literally thousands of passages in the Bible, and until some Roman Catholic dissidents became outraged with the then current practices and teachings in the Roman Catholic and overreacted to them, that premise had not yet been conceived. Hence, the five new and novel doctrines that resulted from that premise had not yet been conceived.

Our earliest Baptist forefathers were Arminian in their theology until some Baptists heard these brand new doctrines that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and the doctrines very soon became so popular that they found their place in early Baptist confessions of faith. Since that time, the very large majority of Baptists have gradually come to reject as non-biblical one or more of these five doctrines that are know today as the Five Points of Calvinism. Personally, I reject all five of them for biblical reasons, and look forward to the day when all Baptists will reject all five of them for biblical reasons, and return to the teaching of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers and the our earliest Baptist forefathers.

 

[His_disciple3]

Utter destruction means utter destruction—it does not mean that the tribes were utterly destroyed but the people making up the tribes were not. The Jews who were securely in the hand of God but became apostate, renounced their faith in the only true God, and worshipped and served deities of wood and stone are not going to spend eternity in heaven with the holy and righteous God—they are going to spend eternity in hell; and so will Christians who become apostate.

The seal of which you write in your post is the seal of ownership—giving the owner of the property thus sealed the right to retain, sell, lease, give away, or destroy the property. God’s mercy endures forever, but his mercy on each individual is conditional upon that individual remaining faithful to Him. We see this to be true time and again in the Old Testament, and from the Old Testament we are to learn a lesson regarding God’s mercy to us, and our responsibility to be faithful to God.


Romans 11:16. If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18. do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21. for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. (NASB, 1995)

1 Cor. 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (NASB, 1995)

I see however you couldn't say anything scripturally against me praising Jesus for not leaving my salvation up to me. I mean if you want to believe and also you want to keep yourself saved then that is your soul at risk, but however you teaching this other gospel, others that buy into it from your teachings , they also will be on your hands, where is your Faith, or whom is your faith in? if we are lead to believe that we must do something to save ourself and also keep ourself saved, then our faith is in what we do , and not what Jesus has done for you. if you want to say Lord thank you for what you did or try to do for me, but now I must finish my salvation while I am here, then that's you, but as far as me and my house we will claim that we are:

Hebrews 12:2
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

you be your own finisher of our faith if you please, you seal your redemption, But I will leave mine up to Jesus Christ thank you!!
you twist scripture and say that whereever it says death or destruction that it is referring to hell, or damnation you ignore 1 Cor. 5:5 go ahead cut it out of your bible, also cut out the part where it says that a person saved, can have good works and bad works , but the bad are burned up but the man himself is saved, you ignore in Jude where that the Almighty is able to keep you from falling. you cause contradiction with these scriptures by twisted others, you have that pride of knowing that your salvation is in your control, that you are in charge of your fate, but you won't stop me from praying for you, that one day you will be able to humble yourself, and know that your righteousness is as filthy rags, that there is only one Good, and that, That "One Good" provided away for you to get to Him, for He knew that You would never make it on your own! For that One God instead of saying I'll have all them to work their way up to me, rather He said I will reach down to them , I will provide The Way, The Truth, and The Life, Through My Begotten Son, I will love them, even though some will reject that love, and say they must do this on their own, the nerve of some people saying that what Jesus did is not good enough, that we must add to that., Sir I will pray for you, but I am finished debating the Love of God, and the Power of God and the promises of God with you , you can even have the last word. But God has said That I will never perish, and this promised is based on what He has done for me, and not what I can do for Him or myself, if I work to get saved then my works are selfish works done for what I can get out of them, and not what I can give back to Him. I will defend the word of God with others but Sir me and you have tossed this one back far too many times already! May God bless you and Hope to see you in Heaven one day.


1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV

 

[PrincetonGuy]

A very nice discussion indeed. I was raised Baptist ever since I came out of my mom’s womb. I didn't challenge my belief till meeting some wonderful people through the facility I attended college, and then some places I have been contracted to work. Quite frankly I do not know what to believe. I am no bible scholar, nor have I attended a theology school.

Some days I believe that my salvation is safe, and then others not so much. I am a sinner who believes in Jesus Christ, yet I fail every day. I am either scared to pray in front of people I work with, or I am fighting lust sometimes losing, trying to not commit idolatry with common habits, and the list goes on and on.

I always ask for forgiveness, but I still stumble, all while fearing for my soul.

PrincetonGuy from what I have read so far you are more the Armenian than most here, and you seem to be very knowledgeable. You said that if someone loses their salvation, they can never gain it back? How do we identify these people who have lost their salvation? I have a father who went to church as a child, was saved and baptized, but he doesn't go to church anymore, nor is he a spiritual leader of the house. If you were to ask him, he would profess his belief in Jesus, but if you didn't ask him you may not realize it. Has he lost his salvation?

I have meet many Armenians who believe that losing salvation is as simple as taking their eyes of the lord and sinning; I often wonder how someone can have peace while living in human body?

Welcome to Christian Forums! I pray that we will be a blessing to you, and that our Lord will use us to help you to understand more accurately your present relationship with God and to improve upon it.

Becoming a Christian begins with belief in Christ, and our faith in Christ grows as we carefully and prayerfully read the Scriptures on a daily basis and give God praise for what Christ did for us on the cross, and for the very many other things that He has done for us.

Faith in Christ is not mere intellectual accent to the truthfulness of the gospel—faith in Christ is living our lives in submission to Him as best we know how, including during times when our “faith” may be less strong that we would like it to be. When Christians focus on themselves and their faith more than they focus on Christ and what He has done for us, it is easy for them to become discouraged.

There is a very wrong and very harmful belief circulating amongst many Baptists today that living victoriously for Christ is impossible. We see this belief reflected in the posts in this thread that portray Paul as a sinner struggling unsuccessfully against temptations to sin. This very wrong belief comes especially from Romans 7:14-25 in which we find Paul writing in the rhetorical first person and present tense to dramatically portray the unregenerate Jew who delights in the Law of God after the inward man, but who finds himself behaving contrary to the Law, unable to keep it. Indeed, this unregenerate Jew says of himself,

14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

Any Jew, indeed, any man, who attempts to please God by keeping the Law is going to fail and fail and fail! The ability to please God comes only through faith in Christ, what He has done for us on the cross, and continuing in His word.

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33. They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34. Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.”

Paul knew this promise, and he lived the life that Jesus promised for those who believe in Him and continue in His word. All too many Christians, however, like to believe that Paul lived a defeated Christian life just as they do. After all, such a belief does not require that they change their lifestyle and they can continue in the sins that they enjoy. They feel guilty at times because of those sins, but they find comfort in believing that Paul had the same problem with sin that they have. They believe in Christ on an intellectual level, but their lives betray a very shallow belief. They are saved, but what are they saved from? They live as though Christ came to forgive people of their sins but not to save them from their sins. They like to sweep under the rug the words spoken by an angel of the Lord to Joseph in Matthew 1:20-21,

20. But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21. “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

My precious brother in Christ, you believe in Christ. You have not lost your salvation. Read the Bible and take God at His word. Look to Him for strength and share with others what God has done for them in the person of His Son. I can remember a time many years ago when I was going through an exceedingly difficult time and I was so discouraged that I could barely get through the day, and the Lord brought into my path a man who very much needed to hear the gospel. I wanted to just ignore him, but with the very tiny bit of faith that I had, I opened my mouth and the Holy Spirit took over and the gospel poured out of my mouth with a burning passion and absolute confidence. As I heard the words coming forth out of my mouth, I was encouraged and strengthened, and the man with whom I shared the gospel believed it and was saved.

Pray for your father. Pray to God for your father’s faith to be strengthened. Let your Father see the truth of the gospel in your life.

People who believe that a Christian can lose his salvation without having committed actual apostasy are not Arminian in their belief.

(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995 update.)

 

[OzSpen]

i think i may have lost my salvation reading this thread.

So have you committed apostasy? Or, have you shipwrecked your faith?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The teachings that distinguish Roman Catholic theology from Protestant theology were not conceived until well after the Council of Nicaea in the fourth century. We do not have any writings from this early period in which any passages in the Bible were interpreted to teach eternal security, but we do have many writings from this early period in which passages in the Bible were interpreted to teach conditional security. During the time between the Council of Nicaea and the 16th century, we have very numerous writings in which conditional security is taught, but we do not have any at all in which eternal security is so much as mentioned. If anyone of prominence had taught it, even if that person’s writings had eventually become lost, we would expect to find a number of theologians arguing against that view—but we do not. We do not find any extracanonical evidence of any kind that anyone interpreted any passage in the Bible to teach eternal security until the 16th century. Therefore, to say that “the Reformation restored the proper teaching of the Holy Bible is incorrect—what it did do is introduce to the Church five new and novel doctrines, all of which were given birth as a consequence of conclusions drawn through deductive reasoning based upon the faulty premise that God is absolutely sovereign. That premise is refuted by literally thousands of passages in the Bible, and until some Roman Catholic dissidents became outraged with the then current practices and teachings in the Roman Catholic and overreacted to them, that premise had not yet been conceived. Hence, the five new and novel doctrines that resulted from that premise had not yet been conceived.

Our earliest Baptist forefathers were Arminian in their theology until some Baptists heard these brand new doctrines that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and the doctrines very soon became so popular that they found their place in early Baptist confessions of faith. Since that time, the very large majority of Baptists have gradually come to reject as non-biblical one or more of these five doctrines that are know today as the Five Points of Calvinism. Personally, I reject all five of them for biblical reasons, and look forward to the day when all Baptists will reject all five of them for biblical reasons, and return to the teaching of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers and the our earliest Baptist forefathers.

Have you compiled a list of quotes (with references) from the early church fathers who believed that salvation was conditional on continuing to believe?

Such a list of quotes would be helpful. I'll see if I can Google a few.

Have you completed an exposition of refuting the 5 Points of Calvinism that you could share with us? That would be very helpful.

In Christ, Oz

 

[phoenixdem]

i think i may have lost my salvation reading this thread.

Naw, it's ok. Once God accepts you, He's sorta stuck with you through thick and thin. Of course, there are those who would try to convince you otherwise, but they need wisdom. Don't worry about it.