Eternal Security

[faceofbear]

I've yet to see anyone here deny God's sovereignty on this thread. I've only seen people deny that God is deterministic. In other words, the disagreement is in the semantics of what sovereignty is. God can be sovereign with out forcing people to sin, He allows it -- that doesn't make Him any less sovereign. It just makes Him non-deterministic. Again, I can't even raise my hand without God. I don't know how much more clear I can make the understanding that God is sovereign without being deterministic. There's no bible verse that teach God is a god of determinism. To say people are denying God's sovereignty is to read what you want into other peoples post or not perceiving what the person is saying. Goodness. Heaven forbid someone disagree with a persons understanding of sovereignty. I guess semantical noise is non-existent in this world. It's clear why this debate never leads anywhere. People don't see the difference between sovereignty and determinism.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Outstanding I'm glad we agree on this passage because it is key. It tells us what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1 NIV
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Notice it says CONFIDENCE in what we hope for, ASSURANCE about what we don't see.

If we have faith we are confident Christ has saved us, we have assurance it is all true. Because that is the very definition of what faith is.

So we see, eternal security is indeed a biblical doctrine beyond a shadow of a doubt. God is awesome.

I believe that it is important for all Christians to be honest at all times, and that they make every reasonable effort to be sure that the things that they tell others are true and accurate. We all know that Hebrews 11:1 is a very difficult verse to translate into English and that published translations of it, therefore, vary considerably. This is especially true of the Greek word ὑπόστασις variously translated in this verse as “substance,” “assurance,” “title-deed,” “guarantee,” “realization,” “substantiating,” “sure confidence,” etc. The same Greek word is used in two other places in Hebrews, 1:3 and 3:14. In Hebrews 1:3, the NIV translates it as “reality,” the NASB, RSV, and the ESV as “nature,” the KJV and the NKJV as “person,” the ASV as “substance,” the NJV as “own being,” the NAB as “being,” the NRSV as “very being,” and Young’s Bible as “subsistence.” In Hebrews 3:14, the NASB translates it as “assurance,” the KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV, NRSV, NIV, NJB and others as “confidence,” the NAB as “reality,” and the Montgomery New Testament as “title deed.”

The cause of this variation is that we do not have in English a word that closely corresponds to the Greek word ὑπόστασις, and the precise use of the word in the Greek New Testament is not certain. We can see very clearly, however, from the use of the word in Heb. 1:3 that the word has much more to do with reality than it has to do with assurance. We also know that the concept that it has to do with assurance comes from Martin Luther’s translation of Heb. 11:1, and that it was Melanchthon who advised Luther to translate it as he did, in spite of the usage of the word in other Greek literature and its interpretation by the patristic and medieval interpreters. For Paul’s use of the word (only twice—2 Cor. 9:4 and 11:17), see the discussion by Helmut Köster of Harvard University in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 8, pp. 584-585, and the article in which this discussion is found, pp. 572-589.

Now let us take a look at Hebrews 3:14 in the NIV and the NASB,

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, (NASB, 1995)

Hebrews 3:14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. (NIV, 1984)

However we may translate and interpret the Greek word ὑπόστασις, this verse makes it explicitly clear that our partaking of Christ and the life that He has given to us is conditional upon our holding fast to the end that which we had in the beginning of our faith in Christ.

Now let us take a look at Hebrews 3:14 in the context in which it is found,

Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15. while it is said, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”
16. For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17. And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19. So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.


1 Cor 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, unless otherwise noted)

 

[DeaconDean]

Determination.

That is what this thread has turned into.

God is deterinalistic in a sense.

The decree appoints not only that they will exist, but also when and how they will come into being. Therefore we see, as in Acts 2:23 as above, or Acts 4:27,28 "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen." This appointing is a firm and unchangeable determination on the part of God. Therefore in the working of these acts we can see the unchanging nature of God. In everything he does He stands by His decree, Num 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfil?" Prov 19:21 "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails." (Other Scriptures are Rom 11:29 and Psalm 102:27.)

This will of God is most effective. In a certain sense this decree is the cause of things happening, Psalm 135:6 "The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths." His will brings all things ordained by Him into actual existence at the right time without fail. His creative will merely says, "Let it be" and it is, as in the first chapter of Genesis.

Therefore this will of God is the first cause of all things. If we seek out the reason why things are, back to the original cause, we must find it in the decree, and determined by God's will. There may be many instrumental and intermediate causes willed by God to carry out His decree, but the ultimate cause of all is that decree. This may be seen in the creation, Rev 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honour and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." This is the reason for the new birth, James 1:18 "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth..." This may be seen in the application of His mercy, Rom 9:18 "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." God is not motivated by something he sees ahead of time in the creature.

The Decrees of God

God determined that of the 12 disciples Jesus had, He would not lose any except the son of perdition so that scriptures would be fulfilled. (cf. Jn. 17:12)

And likewise, God has determined that He will not lose one of His precious sheep.

I am eternally secure.

Say what you guys will about me, but I know what you guys are saying, and I know what you mean.

When I came to the Lord, I was placed in the care of the Father's hand. And no one, not even myself, can take me out of His hand. (cf. Jn. 10:29)

If that ain't eternal security, then scriptures lie.

Plain and simple.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[faceofbear]

That's an example of sovereignty. Not determination. God didn't force Judas to betray Christ, Satan did, God allowed it. If you can show that God forced Judas to betray Christ by forcing Satan to enter Judas apart from Satan or Judas' will, then it becomes determination -- but if God forced Judas by Satan to betray Christ, the Father betrayed Christ, not Judas nor Satan, and surely we don't believe that. But if we say that God allowed Satan to enter Judas to fulfill a greater good, then it becomes sovereignty. We can say God decreed to allow Judas to betray Christ. But not that God decreed Judas to betray Christ by necessity and against his will, or else, as stated in Adam and Eve's case, the blame redounds to God. But I do believe God allowed Judas to betray Christ by allowing Satan by choice to possess Judas and God knew this before the foundations of the world, that God decreed to allow this, and that God used it for the redemption of man.

The issue isn't whether God decreed to enable this instance to occur (sovereignty). But whether God is directly to blame for the betrayal of Christ (determinism).

The perfect example of sovereignty but not determination is Job.

I'm not opposed to eternal security. I'm opposed to even as so much as hinting that God is directly or indirectly in anyway, shape, or form, a sinner. Eternal security doesn't matter so much to me, I think we can agree that whatever the case be, it's not a good thing if someone falls away.

 

[Hentenza]

I believe that it is important for all Christians to be honest at all times, and that they make every reasonable effort to be sure that the things that they tell others are true and accurate. We all know that Hebrews 11:1 is a very difficult verse to translate into English and that published translations of it, therefore, vary considerably. This is especially true of the Greek word ὑπόστασις variously translated in this verse as “substance,” “assurance,” “title-deed,” “guarantee,” “realization,” “substantiating,” “sure confidence,” etc. The same Greek word is used in two other places in Hebrews, 1:3 and 3:14. In Hebrews 1:3, the NIV translates it as “reality,” the NASB, RSV, and the ESV as “nature,” the KJV and the NKJV as “person,” the ASV as “substance,” the NJV as “own being,” the NAB as “being,” the NRSV as “very being,” and Young’s Bible as “subsistence.” In Hebrews 3:14, the NASB translates it as “assurance,” the KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV, NRSV, NIV, NJB and others as “confidence,” the NAB as “reality,” and the Montgomery New Testament as “title deed.”

The cause of this variation is that we do not have in English a word that closely corresponds to the Greek word ὑπόστασις, and the precise use of the word in the Greek New Testament is not certain. We can see very clearly, however, from the use of the word in Heb. 1:3 that the word has much more to do with reality than it has to do with assurance. We also know that the concept that it has to do with assurance comes from Martin Luther’s translation of Heb. 11:1, and that it was Melanchthon who advised Luther to translate it as he did, in spite of the usage of the word in other Greek literature and its interpretation by the patristic and medieval interpreters. For Paul’s use of the word (only twice—2 Cor. 9:4 and 11:17), see the discussion by Helmut Köster of Harvard University in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 8, pp. 584-585, and the article in which this discussion is found, pp. 572-589.

Now let us take a look at Hebrews 3:14 in the NIV and the NASB,

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, (NASB, 1995)

Hebrews 3:14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. (NIV, 1984)

However we may translate and interpret the Greek word ὑπόστασις, this verse makes it explicitly clear that our partaking of Christ and the life that He has given to us is conditional upon our holding fast to the end that which we had in the beginning of our faith in Christ.

Now let us take a look at Hebrews 3:14 in the context in which it is found,

Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15. while it is said, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”
16. For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17. And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19. So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.


1 Cor 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, unless otherwise noted)

I have to disagree with you regarding the meaning of ὑπόστασις. The word is a compound of ὑπό (a primary proposition meaning by or under) and ἵστημι (meaning to make a stand, to stand). It is literally a standing or setting under hence it describes a support, a confidence, a steadiness, a foundation (a ground in which something is built), an assurance.

In scripture it represents a solid and unshakable confidence in God and His promises. In secular Greek the word was used to describe that which stands under anything like a building, a contract, a promise. It was commonly used in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions or with the meaning of a title deed. The meaning of the word has much more to do with assurance or substance than with reality unless you consider the assurance to be the reality as I do.

Now, looking at Heb. 3:14 we see this assurance at play. The verb γεγόναμεν is used here in the perfect active indicative meaning a completed action not a future one. Basically we have become partakers (completed) if (ἐάνπερ conditional statement) we hold fast to our assurance from the beginning. So we don't stop being partakers in Christ if we don't hold on to our assurance but that we where never partakers of Christ because we never had the assurance from the beginning. If the verb were future then it would fit that we will not become partakers unless we hold fast. The opposite of the verse is that "if we do not hold fast to our beginning assurance then we have not become partakers in Christ."

 

[Hupomone10]

Say what you guys will about me, but I know what you guys are saying, and I know what you mean.

Great, a Christian mind-reader.



DD2008, I agree. let us have peace.

I do believe in the sovereignty of God; but that aside; I do want you to know that you have caused me to reflect more on the sovereignty of God through your posts.

Yours too, Dean.

Blessings,
H.

 

[DeaconDean]

I have to disagree with you regarding the meaning of ὑπόστασις. The word is a compound of ὑπό (a primary proposition meaning by or under) and ἵστημι (meaning to make a stand, to stand). It is literally a standing or setting under hence it describes a support, a confidence, a steadiness, a foundation (a ground in which something is built), an assurance.

In scripture it represents a solid and unshakable confidence in God and His promises. In secular Greek the word was used to describe that which stands under anything like a building, a contract, a promise. It was commonly used in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions or with the meaning of a title deed. The meaning of the word has much more to do with assurance or substance than with reality unless you consider the assurance to be the reality as I do.

Now, looking at Heb. 3:14 we see this assurance at play. The verb γεγόναμεν is used here in the perfect active indicative meaning a completed action not a future one. Basically we have become partakers (completed) if (ἐάνπερ conditional statement) we hold fast to our assurance from the beginning. So we don't stop being partakers in Christ if we don't hold on to our assurance but that we where never partakers of Christ because we never had the assurance from the beginning. If the verb were future then it would fit that we will not become partakers unless we hold fast. The opposite of the verse is that "if we do not hold fast to our beginning assurance then we have not become partakers in Christ."

I agree with you brother.

However, one word of warning.

Your expository of the Greek will fail. No matter what, you will be wrong.

Remember, you are arguing with a member who is a Greek "authority".

They know better then Mounce, Machen, the TDNT, and any lexicon.

I know, I been there.

I'm behind you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Great, a Christian mind-reader.

Say what you will, but I have been over this with you in the past.

So I know.

Folks, I offer this.

In Arthur W. Pink's work "Eternal Security" this is written as a foreword:

Eternal Security is the teaching that God shall with no uncertainty bring into their eternal inheritance those who are actually justified—delivered from the curse of the law and have the righteousness of Christ reckoned to their account—and who have been begotten by the Spirit of God. And further it is the teaching that God shall do this in a way glorifying to Himself, in harmony with His nature and consistent with the teaching of Scripture concerning the nature of those who are called saints. Why is this important? Why is it important for every Christian to know that once God has taken him for His own, He will never let him go? Arthur W. Pink gives many reasons for this in this book on Eternal Security. For one thing, it is necessary in order to strengthen young and fearful Christians in their faith—by safeguarding the honor and integrity of God and His Word. And it is also necessary in order to preserve one of the grand and distinctive blessings of the Gospel, which to deny is to attack the very foundations of the believer’s comfort and assurance.

Eternal Security is a doctrine that complements and completes other truths. It is the truth which establishes a Christian in assurance of salvation. The doctrine of election in itself cannot do this. Justification cannot do this. The doctrine of sanctification cannot do this. Not even the doctrine of glorification does so. Yet each of these is incomplete without Eternal Security. Election, Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification are all hypothetical—mere possibilities—until Eternal Security complements and completes them by showing how they are applied to specific individuals. And it is also practical because it brings believers to assurance of salvation, which according to many Scripture passages they are to have.

There is, however, the possibility of self-deception. Assurance of salvation must be based on a right understanding of what God’s Word teaches concerning Eternal Security. D. L. Moody told a story that illustrates the danger. A drunk stopped Moody one time and said, "Don’t you remember me? I’m the man you saved here two years ago." "Well," said Moody, "it must have been me, because the Lord certainly didn’t do it." Too many are "saved" by men, and not saved by God. In other words, one can have assurance of salvation — like the drunk —without being saved. We must contend for Eternal Security for those who are really saved — who are born anew, and have been changed within. This is what Arthur W. Pink explains so well in this book.

Foreword

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzFmekSO2k8

http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/eternalsecurity.html

http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/Oscar%20Mink/eternal_security.htm

I am...eternally secure!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hupomone10]

Say what you will, but I have been over this with you in the past.

So I know.

Folks, I offer this.

In Arthur W. Pink's work "Eternal Security" this is written as a foreword:

I am...eternally secure!

God Bless

Till all are one.

Thanks for the J.Vernon McGee and the Ironside articles. I have all of McGee's "Thru the Bible" commentaries. Ironside I like but don't have any.

I'll cut you a break, since with so many posts and people it is easy to forget; but maybe instead of being so confidently sure of yourself, you should put it in the form of a question. For you haven't been over eternal security with me in the past.

I know.

and,

I am eternally secure as well.

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day.

But you're welcome to produce such threads regarding a discussion of eternal security where I argued against it if you wish.

Blessings, and let us try to be at peace.
H.

 

[dobieman0488]

i believe in eternal security, because if thats not true, salvation is by works

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I have to disagree with you regarding the meaning of ὑπόστασις. The word is a compound of ὑπό (a primary proposition meaning by or under) and ἵστημι (meaning to make a stand, to stand). It is literally a standing or setting under hence it describes a support, a confidence, a steadiness, a foundation (a ground in which something is built), an assurance.

In scripture it represents a solid and unshakable confidence in God and His promises. In secular Greek the word was used to describe that which stands under anything like a building, a contract, a promise. It was commonly used in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions or with the meaning of a title deed. The meaning of the word has much more to do with assurance or substance than with reality unless you consider the assurance to be the reality as I do.

Dear brother,

Your statements are severely inaccurate. On or about Oct. 21st of this year, you posted a seriously incorrect meaning of the Greek word ἀπειθῶν in John 3:36 based on the incorrect assumption that compound Greek words mean the sum of their parts. In first or second semester Greek, however, we learn that very often they do not, and we are shown many examples to document this fact. The compound Greek word ὑπόστασις is one of those words.


The earliest known uses of the word are almost exclusively in medical or scientific contexts. In these contexts, we do find two or three examples where the word was used in the sense of “support.” For example, Hippocrates used the word in this sense when writing of a dislocated hip still being able to serve as a support for the body. The sense of “support,’ however, was not used beyond the field of anatomy.


The most widely used sense of the word in very early Greek literature is for “things that settle,” such as the sediment in urine, the sediment in stagnant pools of water, the sediment in the process of fermentation, the deposits formed in the smelting of iron ore, and even the cool, moist air that settles to near the surface of the earth.



The word later came to be used in the field of philosophy for being which has attained reality. We find this well documented in the writings of the stoic philosopher Posidonius. Aristotle uses the word with the sense of the “essence” and “reality” of things.


Polybius, the statesman and historian of Hellenism, also uses the word with the sense of “reality,” as did ancient Greek astrologers.


Philo and Josephus use the cognate verb of the word in the sense of “real existing” in contrast with that which only appears to be.


However, in papyri from the 3rd century B.C., the word is used in the sense of a “lease document” or a “title deed.” In the Septuagint, the word is used about 20 times to translate 12 different Hebrew words.


Therefore, the notion that the meaning of the compound Greek word ὑπόστασις is the sum of its parts is severely inaccurate. Indeed, we read in A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, “The sense ‘confidence’, ‘assurance’ must be eliminated, since examples of it cannot be found (acc. to Dörrie and Köster [below]). It cannot play a role in Hb. 11:1, where it has enjoyed much favor since Luther (also Tyndale, RSV; not KJ).” In Moulton and Milligan’s The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, we read, “For this important word we may begin by citing a few of the exx. of the common meaning ‘substance,’ ‘property,’ ‘effects’:” followed by the documentation for these meanings. They then suggest the following translation for its use in Heb. 11:1, “Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for.” For additional, detailed documentation, please see the works that I have cited above in this post, and Notes de lexicographie néo-testamentaire by Ceslas Spicq.



Whatever may be the precise meaning the author of Hebrews had in mind when he wrote the first verse of chapter eleven, the author tells us very plainly that faith is necessary in order to obtain that which is hoped for. Christians who abandon their faith in Christ thereby surrender their title-deed to that for which they had hoped.

Now, looking at Heb. 3:14 we see this assurance at play. The verb γεγόναμεν is used here in the perfect active indicative meaning a completed action not a future one. Basically we have become partakers (completed) if (ἐάνπερ conditional statement) we hold fast to our assurance from the beginning. So we don't stop being partakers in Christ if we don't hold on to our assurance but that we where never partakers of Christ because we never had the assurance from the beginning. If the verb were future then it would fit that we will not become partakers unless we hold fast. The opposite of the verse is that "if we do not hold fast to our beginning assurance then we have not become partakers in Christ."

Yes, the verb is in the perfect active indicative meaning a completed action, but it also means that the consequence of the completed action is currently present. However, those Christians who have become partakers of Christ remain in their current position if they hold fast to the faith that bought them to that position.


Now let us take another look at Hebrews 3:14 in the context in which it is found,


Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15. while it is said, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”
16. For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17. And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19. So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.


1 Cor 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.


The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews is warning Jewish Christians who have become partakers of Christ of the danger of apostasy from the Christian faith, and he illustrates that danger by reminding them of the apostasy of their forefathers in the wilderness and the consequence of that apostasy—they died in the wilderness and never reached the promised land! The Apostle Paul uses the same example as a warning to Gentile Christians and writes,


1 Cor 10:11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.


(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, unless otherwise noted)

 

[PrincetonGuy]

i believe in eternal security, because if thats not true, salvation is by works

“I believe that the animal in cage #3727 is a giraffe, because if that is not true, the animal is hippopotamus.” No, the animal in cage #3727 is a lion!

Christians are saved by grace through faith, not works by works of the Law. However, Christians who abandon their faith in Christ fall from grace and become eternally dammed to the fires of hell.

 

[DD2008]

However, Christians who abandon their faith in Christ fall from grace and become eternally dammed to the fires of hell.

No elect person will ever become un elect.

 

[faceofbear]

No elect person will ever become un elect.

Oh, okay. I finally get it now. Thanks for the clarification. Your opinion clears up everything. Finally. Gosh, I can't believe how dumb I am to miss your infallible interpretation of scripture in the other 23 pages of this thread. How idiotic of me, I guess I should highlight only verses on OSAS and tear out all the ones which teach contrary so I don't get confused again.

Luther was certainly right when he stated that instead of removing the Pope he created thousands of popes. I wish people weren't so dogmatic about their interpretation they'd at least realize the possibility that they might be wrong and avoid such redundant posts with no support and adding absolutely nothing to the conversation of this thread ( Kind of like this post -- my post, that is). Especially since I'd assume the response to my post would be something like, "Jesus believed in eternal security."

At any rate, yet again, it depends how you view election. Even as a Calvinist.

 

[DD2008]

Oh, okay. I finally get it now. Thanks for the clarification. Your opinion clears up everything. Finally. Gosh, I can't believe how dumb I am to miss your infallible interpretation of scripture in the other 23 pages of this thread. How idiotic of me, I guess I should highlight only verses on OSAS and tear out all the ones which teach contrary so I don't get confused again.

Luther was certainly right when he stated that instead of removing the Pope he created thousands of popes. I wish people weren't so dogmatic about their interpretation they'd at least realize the possibility that they might be wrong and avoid such redundant posts with no support and adding absolutely nothing to the conversation of this thread ( Kind of like this post -- my post, that is). Especially since I'd assume the response to my post would be something like, "Jesus believed in eternal security."

At any rate, yet again, it depends how you view election. Even as a Calvinist.

However, it really is that simple. The elect cannot become unelect because God elected them and he is immutable and sovereign.

So, this thread has at least had a positive turn out and hupo, dean, and I are at peace with that.

 

[faceofbear]

However, it really is that simple. The elect cannot become unelect because God elected them and he is immutable and sovereign.

Brother, I know I will make a ton of silly errors that I will regret. I do daily. I KNOW I'm fallible, and I know YOU are too, even if you're older than I. That is all I'm wishing to show you. The point of all my posting is to get to the point where we can agree to disagree in that the Bible is simply clear that it is not good to fall away. Whether we assume they are saved or not, truly, makes no difference. If you say someone falls away was never saved, that's horrible. If I say someone falls away lost their salvation, that is horrible as well. I have no quarrels about OSAS, honestly. I just have quarrels with suggesting that God is deterministic, directly, or indirectly (you seem to take the latter route), caused sin, provides no grace to anyone but His elect, and damns them. That's not sovereign, that is deterministic, and it completely defies and slaps God in the face of His just and loving character. If we wish to say God eternally saves those whom come to faith and repentance, so be it. That's wonderful. I'm grateful that God would keep us eternally. But let us not suggest that God is deterministic because this notion is completely unbiblical, and again completely removes God His goodness, loving, and just character and defames His glorious name by making Him a sinner! God is sovereign! God is immutable! But God is not a deterministic tyrant, and how dare any human even suggest it.

In regards to me being 22. Such a "argument," if that is what we want to call it, is a red herring. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything except to suggest you know more than I simply due to age. Which granted, I will give you that, because I think I am a sinful idiot who deliberately defies God daily and does not put enough study into His word. I spend more time reading fictitious books than I do the Bible. But I can show you men who were 22 that are far more, or were (deceased men) more intelligible and godly than myself or you. For starters: John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards.

So, this thread has at least had a positive turn out and hupo, dean, and I are at peace with that.

Brother, Bill (H) is probably the closest person I am to on this forum. H always got it as his theological stance is a Calvinist. The second person I am close to is Kitty, again, another low Calvinist. And the third is mrquglw who was banned and is a high Calvinist. Do I consider myself at peace with you and dean? Yes. I never considered us at "war." I simply defy suggesting that God is a sinner in anyway, and I defy arrogance in anyone who thinks that they are infallible. And you might not think you are, but it certainly comes off that way, especially in the post I last quoted you (not this one, but prior). I'm not against anyone here, in fact the opposite. I'm trying to show that there is a middle ground, that either side can easily be as deceived and we aren't going to simply win providing scripture quotes. Why? Because the Devil knows scripture better than us and can use it to bring divisions against us. It is possible that NEITHER positions are correct. This does not mean that scripture shouldn't be our go-to, but we should at least be accepting that we may be wrong. I don't believe I am doing harm, but preventing self-deception, yet people are unwilling to admit they might even be wrong in the slightest, which to me, is a dreadful thing.

Lastly, I remember you saying that things like sovereignty is so apparent in the bible, and I agree. But I do not believe that determinism is, and think if your definition of sovereignty includes determinism, that it's not a proper definition because it ruins the character of God. But that is not my point. You stated that one could make mistakes (when I referenced Calvin and Luther's sacramental stance), but that a deterministic sense of sovereignty (if indeed you believe God is deterministic), is too apparent to miss. However, so is salvation by grace through faith, not of works. Yet both their sacramental stances went against that, but perhaps no greater person taught a better salvation by grace through faith than Martin Luther. My point is, we can't just write people off because they disagree with one stance on the Bible that is apparent to you, and not another. What if in another 500 years people look back at this Calvinist/Arminian debate are like, "WOW! Look at how wrong they BOTH got it?" Certainly Luther and Calvin believed what they were teaching, but both were wrong.

I'm sorry I offended you, but the arrogance I sensed in that last post was offensive and in the very least demeaning to Princeton's posts.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

God bless.

 

[Hentenza]

Dear brother,

Your statements are severely inaccurate. On or about Oct. 21st of this year, you posted a seriously incorrect meaning of the Greek word ἀπειθῶν in John 3:36 based on the incorrect assumption that compound Greek words mean the sum of their parts. In first or second semester Greek, however, we learn that very often they do not, and we are shown many examples to document this fact. The compound Greek word ὑπόστασις is one of those words.

Well, I am not sure if I feel honored that you follow my posts or that you just accused me of error without providing evidence. I am leaning towards the latter because you did not include a link or explanation. Please provide a link to my grievous error so that I can defend myself. Once you provide it I will start a new thread to discuss it with you so as to not derail this thread.

The earliest known uses of the word are almost exclusively in medical or scientific contexts. In these contexts, we do find two or three examples where the word was used in the sense of “support.” For example, Hippocrates used the word in this sense when writing of a dislocated hip still being able to serve as a support for the body. The sense of “support,’ however, was not used beyond the field of anatomy.


The most widely used sense of the word in very early Greek literature is for “things that settle,” such as the sediment in urine, the sediment in stagnant pools of water, the sediment in the process of fermentation, the deposits formed in the smelting of iron ore, and even the cool, moist air that settles to near the surface of the earth.



The word later came to be used in the field of philosophy for being which has attained reality. We find this well documented in the writings of the stoic philosopher Posidonius. Aristotle uses the word with the sense of the “essence” and “reality” of things.


Polybius, the statesman and historian of Hellenism, also uses the word with the sense of “reality,” as did ancient Greek astrologers.


Philo and Josephus use the cognate verb of the word in the sense of “real existing” in contrast with that which only appears to be.


However, in papyri from the 3rd century B.C., the word is used in the sense of a “lease document” or a “title deed.” In the Septuagint, the word is used about 20 times to translate 12 different Hebrew words.


Therefore, the notion that the meaning of the compound Greek word ὑπόστασις is the sum of its parts is severely inaccurate. Indeed, we read in A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, “The sense ‘confidence’, ‘assurance’ must be eliminated, since examples of it cannot be found (acc. to Dörrie and Köster [below]). It cannot play a role in Hb. 11:1, where it has enjoyed much favor since Luther (also Tyndale, RSV; not KJ).” In Moulton and Milligan’s The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, we read, “For this important word we may begin by citing a few of the exx. of the common meaning ‘substance,’ ‘property,’ ‘effects’:” followed by the documentation for these meanings. They then suggest the following translation for its use in Heb. 11:1, “Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for.” For additional, detailed documentation, please see the works that I have cited above in this post, and Notes de lexicographie néo-testamentaire by Ceslas Spicq.

hupostasis lit., "a standing under, support" (hupo, "under," histemi, "to stand"), hence, an "assurance," is so rendered in Heb_11:1, RV, for AV, "substance." It here may signify a title-deed, as giving a guarantee, or reality. See CONFIDENCE, PERSON, SUBSTANCE.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

5287. hupostasis hoop-os'-tas-is from a compound of 5259 and 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively):--confidence, confident, person, substance.

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

a setting or placing under thing put under, substructure, foundation that which has foundation, is firm that which has actual existence a substance, real being the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution confidence, firm trust, assurance

Hupostasis - New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version

Hupostasis is a very common word from Aristotle on and comes from upisthmi (upo, under, isthmi, intransitive), what stands under anything (a building, a contract, a promise). See the philosophical use of it in 1 Thessalonians 1:3 , the sense of assurance (une assurance certaine, Mngoz) in 1 Thessalonians 3:14 , that steadiness of mind which holds one firm ( 2 Corinthians 9:4 ). It is common in the papyri in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions. "And as this is the essential meaning in Hebrews 11:1 we venture to suggest the translation 'Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for'" (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.).

Hebrews 11:1 - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament, Bible Commentary

Vincent (Word Studies In The New Testament – M. R. Vincent) says, “It is important that the preliminary definition be clearly understood, since the following examples illustrate it. The key is furnished by verse 27 , as seeing him who is invisible. Faith apprehends as a real fact what is not revealed to the senses. It rests on that fact, acts upon it, and is upheld by it in the face of all that seems to contradict it. Faith is real seeing.” The word “substance” deserves careful treatment. It is hupostasis, made up of stasis “to stand,” and hupo “under,” thus “that which stands under, a foundation.” Thus, it speaks of the ground on which one builds a hope. (Wuest Word studies, Logos).

Short Description: standing under, sediment, foundation. under, sediment, foundation; in Neoplatonism, hupostasis is a synonim of ousia, that means being, substance, existence; the three hupostaseis of Plotinus are three fundamental levels, or dimensions, of divine reality: the One, Intellect, and Soul.

Definition of "hupostasis" - The Dictionary of Spiritual Terms

Should I continue?

BTW- I do not see you citing any sources to support your opinions.

Whatever may be the precise meaning the author of Hebrews had in mind when he wrote the first verse of chapter eleven, the author tells us very plainly that faith is necessary in order to obtain that which is hoped for. Christians who abandon their faith in Christ thereby surrender their title-deed to that for which they had hoped.

Christians with saving faith do not abandon their faith. They have been born again, made into a new creation. One can not be unborn nor remade into the old creation since the old creation has passed away.

Yes, the verb is in the perfect active indicative meaning a completed action, but it also means that the consequence of the completed action is currently present. However, those Christians who have become partakers of Christ remain in their current position if they hold fast to the faith that bought them to that position.

If the verb is used as a completed action then it can not be uncompleted. We are partakers in Christ that is a completed action. If the verb was in the future tense then your interpretation would work but it is not. In addition, what do we need to hold fast to? τὴν ἀρχὴν τῆς ὑποστάσεως, the beginning of our assurance. If we never had a beginning to our assurance then we can not hold fast until the end. You can't ignore the grammar.

Now let us take another look at Hebrews 3:14 in the context in which it is found,


Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15. while it is said, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”
16. For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17. And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18. And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19. So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.


1 Cor 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.


The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews is warning Jewish Christians who have become partakers of Christ of the danger of apostasy from the Christian faith, and he illustrates that danger by reminding them of the apostasy of their forefathers in the wilderness and the consequence of that apostasy—they died in the wilderness and never reached the promised land! The Apostle Paul uses the same example as a warning to Gentile Christians and writes,


1 Cor 10:11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.


(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, unless otherwise noted)

1 Cor. 10
13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Nowhere in 1 Cor 10 does it even hint at loss of salvation. I disagree with your exegesis of Hebrews because you are basing said exegesis in the incorrect understanding of the grammar. I will stand by my exegesis.

 

[DD2008]

I have no quarrels about OSAS.

Good. Keep it that way. It's non negotiable. I don't think it should even be something allowed for debate in a baptist forum. Next to credo-baptism it's the number one things baptists are known for.

 

[faceofbear]

Good. Keep it that way. It's non negotiable. I don't think it should even be something allowed for debate in a baptist forum. Next to credo-baptism it's the number one things baptists are known for.

Weird. My uncle went to a baptist "bible" church who didn't believe in OSAS. In fact, they thought my uncle needed to become "resaved" because he had looked at various images on the PC after his salvation... pretty weird belief imho. My uncle also said if he needed help with the temptation of it that they wouldn't help him ever because it's some heinous sin (all sin is heinous but you know what I mean, I guess as a Catholic would put it, a "mortal sin").

Anyways. All I currently stand on OSAS is falling away = bad, no matter what.

 

[DeaconDean]

Well, I am not sure if I feel honored that you follow my posts or that you just accused me of error without providing evidence. I am leaning towards the latter because you did not include a link or explanation. Please provide a link to my grievous error so that I can defend myself. Once you provide it I will start a new thread to discuss it with you so as to not derail this thread.




hupostasis lit., "a standing under, support" (hupo, "under," histemi, "to stand"), hence, an "assurance," is so rendered in Heb_11:1, RV, for AV, "substance." It here may signify a title-deed, as giving a guarantee, or reality. See CONFIDENCE, PERSON, SUBSTANCE.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

5287. hupostasis hoop-os'-tas-is from a compound of 5259 and 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively):--confidence, confident, person, substance.

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

a setting or placing under thing put under, substructure, foundation that which has foundation, is firm that which has actual existence a substance, real being the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution confidence, firm trust, assurance

Hupostasis - New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version

Hupostasis is a very common word from Aristotle on and comes from upisthmi (upo, under, isthmi, intransitive), what stands under anything (a building, a contract, a promise). See the philosophical use of it in 1 Thessalonians 1:3 , the sense of assurance (une assurance certaine, Mngoz) in 1 Thessalonians 3:14 , that steadiness of mind which holds one firm ( 2 Corinthians 9:4 ). It is common in the papyri in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions. "And as this is the essential meaning in Hebrews 11:1 we venture to suggest the translation 'Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for'" (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.).

Hebrews 11:1 - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament, Bible Commentary

Vincent (Word Studies In The New Testament – M. R. Vincent) says, “It is important that the preliminary definition be clearly understood, since the following examples illustrate it. The key is furnished by verse 27 , as seeing him who is invisible. Faith apprehends as a real fact what is not revealed to the senses. It rests on that fact, acts upon it, and is upheld by it in the face of all that seems to contradict it. Faith is real seeing.” The word “substance” deserves careful treatment. It is hupostasis, made up of stasis “to stand,” and hupo “under,” thus “that which stands under, a foundation.” Thus, it speaks of the ground on which one builds a hope. (Wuest Word studies, Logos).

Short Description: standing under, sediment, foundation. under, sediment, foundation; in Neoplatonism, hupostasis is a synonim of ousia, that means being, substance, existence; the three hupostaseis of Plotinus are three fundamental levels, or dimensions, of divine reality: the One, Intellect, and Soul.

Definition of "hupostasis" - The Dictionary of Spiritual Terms

Should I continue?

BTW- I do not see you citing any sources to support your opinions.






Christians with saving faith do not abandon their faith. They have been born again, made into a new creation. One can not be unborn nor remade into the old creation since the old creation has passed away.






If the verb is used as a completed action then it can not be uncompleted. We are partakers in Christ that is a completed action. If the verb was in the future tense then your interpretation would work but it is not. In addition, what do we need to hold fast to? τὴν ἀρχὴν τῆς ὑποστάσεως, the beginning of our assurance. If we never had a beginning to our assurance then we can not hold fast until the end. You can't ignore the grammar.





1 Cor. 10
13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Nowhere in 1 Cor 10 does it even hint at loss of salvation. I disagree with your exegesis of Hebrews because you are basing said exegesis in the incorrect understanding of the grammar. I will stand by my exegesis.

You sir, are in error.

Your basis of Greek is erronious.

Your basis of scripture is in error, it is not the NASB.

I told you so.

God Bless

Till all are one.