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Eternal Security

PrincetonGuy

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there are several verses in the Word that proves if we are saved, then we are saved, but there are many that thought they have been saved but were not.
Ephesians 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
KJV
this says after we have believed, nothing about after we have worked all our life, we are sealed with the promise of God. Promise a Covenant of God if we believe, He will save you , how long does this last until we break that faith, until we quit working for our salvation, man says this But God says: Ephesians 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV

so to seal something is to close it then you seal it, so if God has sealed our salvation when we believe then:
Revelation 3:7
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
KJV

Ok I am saved, I received the promise because of my faith, salvation is sealed until the day of redemption, I can't even open that, for I am included in the number; and no man openeth. I am in this number I am man and God has said I can't open what he has closed. if you say different then you raise yourself mightier than God.

we work out our salvation not work for our salvation,

Jonah 2:9
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.
KJV

it is not of anything I have done least I boast, it is of the Lord!! anything that condradicts these verses are not the verses that contradict, for God is not the author of confusion. so it has to be man's intrepetation of others verses that contradict the Gospel. as V. Mcgee would say we just spell salvation different , you believe there is something you can do to earn salvation then you spell salvation: DO , I believe that Jesus has done all that needs to be done for my salvation so I spell salvation: DONE
done By the works and shed Blood of my Lord and Saviour, thank you Jesus Christ

In the Greek text, Ephesians 1:13 is a small fraction of a very long sentence that comprises vv. Eph. 1:3-14, the entire sentence being a doxology in which the main clause (an independent and autonomous unit of expression that can be correctly punctuated as a sentence) is “Blessed be the God and Father” found in v. 3. Everything else in this very long sentence is a lengthy series of subordinate phrases and clauses supporting the statement in the main clause. Therefore, Eph. 1:3-14 is not a series of objective theological statements that tell us the whole story, but only a small part of the story—a story that tells us what God has done for us, but does not tell us what we must do—that is, continue in our faith, or as Jesus put it, “abide” in Him.

In v. 13, we read that in Christ we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. The seal spoken of in this context is the seal of ownership, guaranteeing the owner of the seal the right to keep, sell, exchange, or give away the property or goods bearing his seal. Therefore, to suggest that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is like being sealed in a Mason jar is biblically incorrect. The only thing that the seal does is guarantee that we who are in the process of believing in Christ as our Lord and our Savior belong to the King. We do NOT own the King; the King owns us—and as our owner, He is free to do with us as He pleases. Therefore, for any Christian to claim that the King is obligated to keep us if we fall into disbelief and willful disobedience is not only to make an audaciously insubordinate claim, it is to outright deny of the holiness and majesty of God.

Eph. 4:30 speaks of the same kind of seal as does Eph. 1:13—a seal designating ownership and the rights of ownership. Rev. 3:7 has nothing to do with any kind of a seal, but only to do with the key of David—that is, the key to the city of David, the New Jerusalem. This prophesy is based upon Isa. 22:20-22,

20. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:
21. And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
22. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

The meaning of the passage in Rev. 3:7 is that Christ, and Christ alone, has the authority to allow or deny admission to the New Jerusalem. Let none of us ever forget that when we are saved, Christ retains the key and the authority to use it to either open or shut the door.

(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the KJV)
 
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phoenixdem

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Book of Romans

8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit
do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of
God.

8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye
have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the
children of God:

8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;
if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified
together.

8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy​
to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Thank you. is this also on your ignore list?

The context is eternal security.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or
distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or
sword?

8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are
accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him
that loved us.

8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor
principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to
separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:35-39 says absolutely nothing about eternal security. It tells us that God is faithful to us; it does NOT tell us that all Christians remain faithful to God.

We have the testimony of the Scriptures, the Early Church Fathers, and 2,000 years of Church history that prove that men who have been saved, born-again, and sanctified by the blood of Jesus have subsequently fallen away from the faith after years of faithful service, and have returned to their own vomit like a sow returns to wallowing in the mire. If we cannot know if a man is truly a saved Christian until he dies as a faithful Christian, there is no assurance of salvation for anyone. We, as Christians, are saved by grace through faith, but those Christians who fail to continue in that faith become severed from Christ and the life that is only found in Christ.

Colossians 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. (NASB, 1995)

Gal. 5:1. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (NASB, 1995)

Please also see post #38 in which faceofbear quotes a number of additional passages from the Bible that document the fact that abiding in Christ is necessary for our continued salvation.
 
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phoenixdem

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Romans 8:35-39 says absolutely nothing about eternal security. It tells us that God is faithful to us; it does NOT tell us that all Christians remain faithful to God.

We have the testimony of the Scriptures, the Early Church Fathers, and 2,000 years of Church history that prove that men who have been saved, born-again, and sanctified by the blood of Jesus have subsequently fallen away from the faith after years of faithful service, and have returned to their own vomit like a sow returns to wallowing in the mire. If we cannot know if a man is truly a saved Christian until he dies as a faithful Christian, there is no assurance of salvation for anyone. We, as Christians, are saved by grace through faith, but those Christians who fail to continue in that faith become severed from Christ and the life that is only found in Christ.

Colossians 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. (NASB, 1995)

Gal. 5:1. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (NASB, 1995)

Please also see post #38 in which faceofbear quotes a number of additional passages from the Bible that document the fact that abiding in Christ is necessary for our continued salvation.

Unless it has dropped through a crack, my response to faceofbear's post is above.

Of course God is faithful to us. Of course man isn't as faithful to God. If you do not wish to see that God's love will never be taken from His own which means He will keep His own chosen from damnation, then perhaps, this will be a bit clearer to you.

In the Book of John,

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is
able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
10:30 I and my Father are one.

So in the Book of John, Jesus Himself said His sheep would never perish. So, what about your quote? You claim it means the opposite of what Jesus said. Perhaps, your answer lies in the Parable about the wheat and the tares.


 
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DeaconDean

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Charles H. Spurgeon preached:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."—1 John 5:13.

Thank God much more if any part of it should be used of the Holy Ghost for your salvation. John is inspired of the Lord, and these things are written to you by the Spirit of God. Do you believe that Jesus is the anointed of God? Brethern, our evidence is the witness of God himself as here recorded. If you believe that Jesus is the Christ, you are born of God. John has thus positively declared the truth, that you may know that you have eternal life. Do you love God? Do you love his Only-begotten Son? Love to God in us is always the work of God's love towards us. Do you love Jesus? Ah, dear friends! John goes on to give another evidence: "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments." Do you love God? Listen to another word from the same apostle: "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren." I know I love the brethern: I can say unto my Lord,

Well, then, if I love the brethern, I love the Elder Brother. If I love the babes, I love the Father; and I know that I have passed from death unto life. We are told by the Holy Ghost that, if we love the brethren, we have passed from death to life. If you are living after your own will, and pay no homage to God, you are none of his. If you never think of the Lord Jesus as your Master, and never recognize the claims of God, and never wish to be obedient to his will, you are not in possession of eternal life. If you desire to be obedient, and prove that desire by your actions, then you have the divine life within you. Is the tenor of your life obedience or disobedience? No doubt some for a while obey the commands of God unwillingly. If God's commands are grievous to you, then you are a rebel at heart. We delight in the law of God after the inward man. Then, dear friends, you have eternal life, and these are the sure evidences of it. Obedience, holiness, delight in God never came into a human heart except from a heavenly hand. Wherever they are found they prove that the Lord has implanted eternal life, for they are much too precious to be buried away in a dead soul.
Has the Spirit of God quickened you, changed you, illuminated you, sanctified you? Does the Spirit of God dwell in you? Does the crucified Lord crucify your sins? Do you now long to perfect holiness in the fear of God? This proves that you have eternal life. If the Spirit of God be in you, he is the earnest of your eternal inheritance. If the water has washed you, then you are the Lord's. Jesus said to Peter, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part in me." But ye are washed, and therefore the Lord's. Read the ninth verse: the apostle puts our faith and assurance on the ground that we receive "the witness of God." I thank God that I believe everything that God has spoken, whether I am able to see its reason or not. If Jehovah says so, so it is. Do you accept the witness of God? If not, you have made him a liar, and the truth is not in you; but if you have received "the witnesses of God," then this is his witness, that "He hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." May we be enabled, from what John has written, to gather beyond doubt that we have the life of God within our souls.

Furthermore, John wrote that we might know our spiritual life to be eternal. The life of God in the soul is not transient, but abiding; not temporary but eternal. Some think that the life of God in the believer's soul may die out; but how, then, could it be eternal? If it die it is not eternal life. If it be eternal life it cannot die. We believe that "eternal" means endless, and that if I have eternal life, I shall live eternally, Brethren, the Lord would have us know that we have eternal life.

It must be eternal life, because it is "the life of God." Surely, this means, among other things, that we receive an undying life; for immortality is of the essence of the Life of God. If it be the life of God which is in a believer—and certainly it is, for he hath begotten us again—then that life must be eternal. As children of God, we partake of his life, and as heirs of God, we inherit his eternity. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Beloved, our Lord Jesus Christ calls the life of his people eternal life. It is not temporary life, not life which at a certain period must grow old and die, but everlasting life. "It shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." This is the life of Christ within the soul. "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." If our life is Christ's life, we shall not die until Christ dies. If our life is hidden in him, it will never be discovered and destroyed until Christ himself is destroyed. Mark again how our Lord has put it: "Because I live, ye shall live also." We are so one Christ that the challenge is given, "Who shall separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord?" John tells us in this very chapter, "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not." How earnestly do I long "that ye may know that ye have eternal life"! Hold fast to eternal salvation through the eternal covenant carried out by eternal love unto eternal life; for the Spirit of God has written these things unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life.

You have the milk of faith, but God wills that you should have this cream of assurance! He would increase your faith. Many a Christian man is narrow in the range of his faith from ignorance of the Lord's mind. It will be well for you if your faith also increases intensively. Oh for a boundless trust in the infinite God! We need more of a venturesome faith: the faith to do and dare. We need workshop faith, as well as prayer-meeting faith. We need faith as to the common things of life, and the trying things of death. We could do with less paint if we had more power. God give to you that you may believe on the name of the Son of God with a sound, common-sense faith, which will be found wearable, and washable, and workable throughout life.

If we would truly believe the promise of God, and rest in the Lord's certain fulfillment of it, we might be as happy as the angels. Will we never trust our God? The Lord give you such faith.

Will not a life of doubt tend to be a life of falsehood? Will you join in worship when your heart does not know that God is your God? Until the spirit of adoption enables you to cry, "Abba, Father," where is your love to God? Assurance of your salvation will bring you "the peace of God, which passeth all understanding." Oh, the blessedness of the man who knows that he has eternal life! Full assurance gives a man a grateful zeal for the God he loves. When we know that we have eternal life, we do not fret about the trials of this passing life. Assurance makes us strong to suffer.

The full-assurance man baffles the very devil. God make you so.Brethren, if you know that you have eternal life, you are prepared to live, and equally prepared to die. Brethren, a child of God may die in the dark. God grant that you may have this assurance, all of you!

Charles H. Spurgeon, The Blessing of Full Assurance, A Sermon, (No. 2023), Delivered on Lord's-day Morning, May 13th, 1888

Full sermon here: The Blessing of Full Assurance

The above is only 20% of the actual message.

I have assurance.

Do you?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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faceofbear

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I don't mean to be rude, but the post in which you responded to me is all distorted and I don't have the patience to figure out what you were trying to say. Simply put, you quote the end of Romans 8, but you forget what Paul said in the beginning of Romans 8.

12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul is clearly addressing brothers, not false believers, but believers and then states that if believers live according to the flesh, and not the Spirit (unless you believe a false believer has the potential to live in the Spirit without the Spirit), they will die.

Paul has made it clear that grace can be received in vain and that believers can taste of Spiritual things and fall away which makes it near impossible for them to be restored to repentance.

I am simply throwing out these disagreements, not necessarily because I believe them, but I believe too many people take such a dogmatic stance on things that they never consider the fact that they might be wrong. And proverbs has a lot to say about people who are dogmatic and believe they are right -- but are blind due to their own pride and arrogance.

Also, if as Paul says, love does not insist on it's own way, and nothing can separate a believer from God's love in Christ, and who's very nature is love, then why would God insist on keeping those who wish to depart from the faith?

I would also like to state that OSAS provides NO security for any believers. Why? Because a person can have a false profession, a false faith, and false fruits -- and then "were never truly saved." You might say, "Well, I know I'm saved -- I've had fruits, I have faith, I'm grounded in Christ." Yeah, but I'm sure countless others who fell away thought the same thing and you'd have the guts to say, "But they were never saved." I'm sorry, but I'll leave that for God to determine.

Again, I am not saying that these are my beliefs, but I believe it's a mistake to take such a dogmatic stance that you are simply opposed to every other alternative and making a mockery out of those who disagree with you in stating that they are calling God a liar. I am certain there are many faithful Arminians to scripture, just as their are Calvinists, and this debate has been going over centuries. I highly doubt you'll simply persuade someone quoting Romans 8, because there are just as many verses that show us one CAN lose their salvation -- and to disagree with that is to read your own doctrine into scripture and to deny what scripture says so plainly.

Galatians 6:9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Again, if we insist that only "true" believers persevere, then what you are insisting is in fact that Paul says in Galatians 6:9, "True Believers don't become weary, nor give up, and reap a harvest at the proper time." However, I see Paul teaching something conditional. Not unconditional.

In regards to my beliefs, I used to be a high Calvinist, but I am being persuaded a little less from my Calvinism roots as I see the majority of the early church and very faithful people to the scriptures were synergists, not mongergist -- and not pelagian, either. But as of now, to be sure, I am a Calvinist -- but again, as I read scripture literally for what it says, it's beginning to change... if not already.

However, to be completely honest, I do not believe scripture alone, in this case, is particularly useful because scripture alone has been the debate over this for a long time. I honestly believe it is either a combination of the two -- as paradoxical as that sounds, or will be needed to be resolved by logic, or not until Heaven. But I don't agree with stating that someone is calling God a liar simply because they disagree with my interpretation of scripture. In fact, that is all they are doing. Calling your interpretation wrong, which is not an unbiased objective look at scripture. So at worst, they're calling you're interpretation a lie... not God.
 
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phoenixdem

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faceofbear,

Let me see if I can do something about that post.

Much of what you posted to be proof of losing salvation can be attributed to the Parable of the wheat and tares. The Parable of the Prodigal Son is also useful to remember. The Holy Bible also teaches about the Sovereignty of God and perseverance of the saints. Do your referenced verses talk about people losing their salvation or a temporary wandering through the wilderness like the Prodigal Son who is welcomed back after a time of sinning and squandering of his portion of the family wealth. Is the fatted calf killed for the wandering son or the son who stayed with his father?

“Apparently people can have their faith destroyed? How come that wasn't mentioned in your Romans verse?”

It wasn’t mentioned in the Romans verse and mentioned in the second Book of Timothy because Paul had his purpose to fulfill in giving scripture and Timothy had his. We are to read all of the scripture, not one Book.

I don’t think that John was confused. It wouldn’t have been John who was confused anyway as the Holy Scripture was given by God, not the individual writers of the Books of the Holy Bible. I have seen explanations of the Book of Revelations 22nd Chapter Verse 19 to include that these people aren’t saved but are those who intentionally pervert the meaning of the scripture. There are different versions of the Holy Bible being published now that seem to be good examples of twisting the scripture. Other commentaries don’t touch on your specific question about that verse. There are many verses that teach about the perseverance of the Saints and scripture doesn’t teach one thing in one place and the opposite in another place. God isn’t the author of confusion, right? Satan certainly is, but not God. If you want me to list those references for you, please let me know.

]“Apparently (in the Book of Romans Chapter 8 is a different Paul speaking than in the rest of the Epistles and Gospels. Remaining in Christs love is conditioned by abiding in Christ through faith -- as Paul said, IF you stand firm to what you first believed it is able to save you.”

Well, I don’t think that Paul contradicted himself in any of his writings. I just happened to see that Peter endorsed the writings of Paul. I don’t think that Peter was confused nor was Paul. There was also a warning in Peter’s endorsement.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.knowing these things beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness.But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

In Verse 17 above, does “ye fall from your own stedfastness” mean a loss of salvation or wandering through the wilderness on another trip as all of us do from time-to-time and God has to go looking for His lost sheep again? Sheep are very dumb and have to be led around by a Shepherd. God’s sheep have a good shepherd and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.

These are the words of the Good Shepherd,

In the Book of John Verse 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, these bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.I and the Father are one.

Each and every Christian has the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is what is meant by living in the spirit. Those who live in the flesh are the lost.

Book of Romans,

8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit
of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of his.

8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the​
Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Why would God want to keep someone who doesn't want to live in faith with Him? I imagine the lost have their own ideas. They are the children of Satan. It is the lost whom we are talking about now.
 
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faceofbear

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So then why does Paul give the believers to possibility of living either A) after the flesh or B) after the Spirit? As much as I tend to, or used to, strongly agree with Calvinistic doctrine, some of it's teachings simply do not make logical sense in scripture and require a lot of warping of the various meanings of passages. For me, it came down to asking myself: If I wrote to a group of believers and told them that they could be severed from Christ, would I mean: A) That you could be severed from Christ, or B) That true believers can't be severed from Christ. Then I also had to figure the context. Christians were being persecuted and didn't have hundreds of years to figure out what Paul meant so I believe Paul was as direct as possible and if he meant to say something else, he would have. But not only that, if I throw aside Calvinism and all that reformed Calvinists and high Calvinistic teachers have taught me and showed me, do I at all find Calvinisitic doctrines in the Bible? If I was reading the Bible literally for the first time in my life, what would I find? It definitely doesn't seem like OSAS would exist.

I do not believe Paul was contradicting, but I also don't believe Romans 8 proves eternal security whatsoever. The parable of the wayward Son could be argued that one was saved, became lost, and became saved. Why? Because he was lost and then found. Loss of salvation does not deny the sovereignty of God, nor does it deny the goodness of Christ. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. It would be loving of Christ to let those go who wish to go, but to continue after them and be long suffering towards them in hopes they are restored to repentance like the wayward son.

Look, as I've mentioned, this thread isn't going anywhere by "proof" texts. Calvinistic points can easily be refuted, as can Arminian points. The issue is what boils down to interpretation. You see God as sovereign and adjust His loving nature accordingly, an Arminian sees God as loving and adjust His sovereignty accordingly. When the matter is God is both sovereign and loving, and again, as a loving Father, love does not insist on it's own way. If I choose to leave the faith, it does not mean that God loses His sovereignty, no less than it denies the sovereignty of God when I pass the salt at the table. But I also cannot say that God is supremely sovereign, and I'd be willing to bet neither are you. Why? Because to say God is supremely sovereign is to say that God wills sin and wills people to go to hell, which we know is contrary to scripture -- and to be quite frank, there is no denying this no matter what one may say... and to be honest, that is quite depressing and quite a saddening thought, no matter how wicked men may be. We might say, "But man has free will, but only the free will to sin." Yes, but who gave man their will? And who only gave them the free will to sin (Oh, and before you accuse me, or someone else does, of pelagianism, I do believe in total depravity :) )?

But I have no right to accuse you, or anyone else, of calling God a liar for simply disagreeing with my interpretation of scripture.

However: Until Heaven, I agree with Paul...

The saying is trustworthy, for: If we [Christians] have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself. Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

If a Christian denies Christ and does not repent, they are not saved. And if you say, "But a Christian wouldn't deny Christ." Look no further than Peter -- and to say otherwise would be to say a Christian is nullified from all the exhortations of scripture because they are OSAS and all exhortations are thereby useless.

However, it's not worth debating over. IMHO, God is loving, and sovereign and has given man freewill. Can I explain it? No. But I can't explain the trinity either. All of this to say the point I've been stressing: telling someone they called God a liar simply because they disagree with your interpretation of scripture is rather rude, disrespectful, harmful, and not necessarily giving the loving correction suggested in scripture. At any rate: It wouldn't be the first paradoxical truth found in scripture.
 
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faceofbear

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Oh yes, and I don't believe God is the author of confusion which is why I stand by saying that OSAS beliefs offer no assurance, but only confusion. Want proof? Look no further than myself, 98critw (sp?), RobertZ, Kitty, and various others I know (if any of these people want me to remove their name let me know -- sorry if you wish to not be mentioned). But again, OSAS can only provide skepticism. You might disagree, but I can say, prove to me your saved (as James would seemingly say). And you'd say, "I'll show you my works." Okay, great. But I'll show you greater people who have done greater works who have fallen from the faith and a OSAS advocate would say, "But they were never saved." So the only security you have of salvation is dependent on that you persevere because your faith can be a false faith, your works false works, your love false love, and your doctrine false doctrine. But even if you persevere, there's no guarantee you weren't self-deceived. However, I see the Bible telling me I can know I'm saved. Not that I have to be guessing whether my works, faith, etc. are genuine "saving faith." Instead the Bible says if I have works, I'm saved, if I have faith, I'm saved. Why? Because Christ is in me. Not that there is a false faith, nor a false work.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Unless it has dropped through a crack, my response to faceofbear's post is above.

Of course God is faithful to us. Of course man isn't as faithful to God. If you do not wish to see that God's love will never be taken from His own which means He will keep His own chosen from damnation, then perhaps, this will be a bit clearer to you.

In the Book of John,

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is
able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

10:30 I and my Father are one.

So in the Book of John, Jesus Himself said His sheep would never perish. So, what about your quote? You claim it means the opposite of what Jesus said. Perhaps, your answer lies in the Parable about the wheat and the tares.

Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)

Here it is in context,

22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many readers. Compare these two passages:

Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)

Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety in it. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.

1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.” (NASB, 1995)

In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and made promises to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithful abiding in Christ.
 
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phoenixdem

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We know about the times that Israel sinned against God and went their own way. God punished them and Israel was restored to their proper place worshipping the one true God. It happened over and over. The last time Israel was scattered to the nations in AD70. Well, we all know where they are now, back in their own land. Scripture tells us there will be a time when all of the nations of the world will bring tribute to New Jerusalem. These matters are well known to Christians.

You said that Christians have done the same thing as Israel. What Christians are these that did the same thing as Israel and were cast out from God's protection?
 
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His_disciple3

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In the Greek text, Ephesians 1:13 is a small fraction of a very long sentence that comprises vv. Eph. 1:3-14, the entire sentence being a doxology in which the main clause (an independent and autonomous unit of expression that can be correctly punctuated as a sentence) is “Blessed be the God and Father” found in v. 3. Everything else in this very long sentence is a lengthy series of subordinate phrases and clauses supporting the statement in the main clause. Therefore, Eph. 1:3-14 is not a series of objective theological statements that tell us the whole story, but only a small part of the story—a story that tells us what God has done for us, but does not tell us what we must do—that is, continue in our faith, or as Jesus put it, “abide” in Him.

In v. 13, we read that in Christ we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. The seal spoken of in this context is the seal of ownership, guaranteeing the owner of the seal the right to keep, sell, exchange, or give away the property or goods bearing his seal. Therefore, to suggest that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is like being sealed in a Mason jar is biblically incorrect. The only thing that the seal does is guarantee that we who are in the process of believing in Christ as our Lord and our Savior belong to the King. We do NOT own the King; the King owns us—and as our owner, He is free to do with us as He pleases. Therefore, for any Christian to claim that the King is obligated to keep us if we fall into disbelief and willful disobedience is not only to make an audaciously insubordinate claim, it is to outright deny of the holiness and majesty of God.

Eph. 4:30 speaks of the same kind of seal as does Eph. 1:13—a seal designating ownership and the rights of ownership. Rev. 3:7 has nothing to do with any kind of a seal, but only to do with the key of David—that is, the key to the city of David, the New Jerusalem. This prophesy is based upon Isa. 22:20-22,

20. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:
21. And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
22. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

The meaning of the passage in Rev. 3:7 is that Christ, and Christ alone, has the authority to allow or deny admission to the New Jerusalem. Let none of us ever forget that when we are saved, Christ retains the key and the authority to use it to either open or shut the door.

(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the KJV)


well ok then If you want to put your faith in yourself and what you can do for your salvation , go ahead, I will trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done for mine!!
 
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PrincetonGuy

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We know about the times that Israel sinned against God and went their own way. God punished them and Israel was restored to their proper place worshipping the one true God. It happened over and over. The last time Israel was scattered to the nations in AD70. Well, we all know where they are now, back in their own land. Scripture tells us there will be a time when all of the nations of the world will bring tribute to New Jerusalem. These matters are well known to Christians.

Hundreds of thousands of individual Israelites rebelled against God and became eternally separated from Him.

You said that Christians have done the same thing as Israel. What Christians are these that did the same thing as Israel and were cast out from God's protection?

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. However, the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Pe[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. But the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him, this man or woman is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith.


Because of the extreme severity of the word “impossible” in this verse, many very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now solid and its warning is stern. Christians who fight tooth and nail to detract from the warning of this passage shall have the blood upon their hands of those who lose their salvation because they were told the warning did not apply to them and they got careless as a result.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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well ok then If you want to put your faith in yourself and what you can do for your salvation , go ahead, I will trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done for mine!!


My faith is in Christ and what the Scriptures teach that He did for me; my faith is not in what some people mistakenly claim He did for me.

I believe with every ounce of my being that the historical teaching of salvation is true, and if I am wrong (but of course I am not), so was every Christian for 1,500 years, including the very men whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon. If I am wrong, the New Testament was so very poorly written that no one, not even the most gifted scholars, were able to understand the doctrine of salvation for 1,500 years; and if that is true, the New Testament was so very poorly written that it cannot possibly be the inspired Word of God but is merely junk literature written by men with extremely poor writing skills. If I am wrong, the New Testament was so very poorly written and thus so very poorly understood that we have absolutely no assurance that anyone correctly understands any of it today. Therefore, if I am wrong, we have absolutely nothing upon which to base our Christian faith but 27 books of poorly written junk literature.

I am not wrong—and neither was the entire Christian church wrong for 1,500 years, and the New Testament and the rest of the Bible are the inspired Word of God.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Irenaeus tells us something of great importance about the very early Church, and that is that there was very much uniformity and consistency in what the churches taught and that the churches that the apostles themselves ministered in and to were still present and that should a question of doctrine arise, these genuinely apostolic churches could be consulted for definitive answers.
Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book III
Chap. IV. — The Truth Is to Be Found Nowhere Else but in the Catholic Church, the Sole Depository of Apostolical Doctrine. Heresies Are of Recent Formation, and Cannot Trace Their Origin up to the Apostles.

1. Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?
It is absolutely essential for readers to understand that when this work was written, sometime between the years of 182-188, the “Catholic” church was NOT the Roman Catholic Church that we have today and that none of the doctrines that distinguish the Roman Catholic Church from our Protestant churches had yet been introduced into the Church. Gnosticism, however, was attempting to make inroads into the Church and Irenaeus was especially concerned with refuting the heresies of Gnosticism and keeping them out of the Church. Irenaeus very strictly adhered to the teachings of the genuinely apostolic churches that were still present in his day, and those teachings included the teaching of conditional security. I am going to quote a fairly lengthy portion from the writings of Irenaeus so that you can see clearly that not only did Irenaeus teach conditional security, but that he understood Paul to have taught it, and so that you can see for yourselves how Irenaeus defended the doctrine of conditional security.
Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book IV
Chap. XXVII — The Sins of the Men of Old Time, Which Incurred the Displeasure of God, Were, by His Providence, Committed to Writing, That We Might Derive Instruction Thereby, and Not Be Filled with Pride. We Must Not, Therefore, Infer That There Was Another God Than He Whom Christ Preached; We Should Rather Fear, Lest the One and the Same God Who Inflicted Punishment on the Ancients, Should Bring Down Heavier upon Us.

1. As I have heard from a certain presbyter, who had heard it from those who had seen the apostles, and from those who had been their disciples, the punishment [declared] in Scripture was sufficient for the ancients in regard to what they did without the Spirit’s guidance. For as God is no respecter of persons, He inflicted a proper punishment on deeds displeasing to Him. As in the case of David, when he suffered persecution from Saul for righteousness’ sake, and fled from King Saul, and would not avenge himself of his enemy, he both sung the advent of Christ, and instructed the nations in wisdom, and did everything after the Spirit’s guidance, and pleased God. But when his lust prompted him to take Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah, the Scripture said concerning him, “Now, the thing (sermo) which David had done appeared wicked in the eyes of the Lord;” and Nathan the prophet is sent to him, pointing out to him his crime, in order that he, passing sentence upon and condemning himself, might obtain mercy and forgiveness from Christ: “And [Nathan] said to him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds; but the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe-lamb, which he possessed, and nourished up; and it had been with him and with his children together: it did eat of his own bread, and drank of his cup, and was to him as a daughter. And there came a guest unto the rich man; and he spared to take of the flock of his own ewe-lambs, and from the herds of his own oxen, to entertain the guest; but he took the ewe-lamb of the poor man, and set it before the man that had come unto him. And David’s anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die (filius mortis est): and he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he hath done this thing, and because he had no pity for the poor man. And Nathan said unto him, Thou art the man who hast done this.” And then he proceeds with the rest [of the narrative], upbraiding him, and recounting God’s benefits towards him, and [showing him] how much his conduct had displeased the Lord. For [he declared] that works of this nature were not pleasing to God, but that great wrath was suspended over his house. David, however, was struck with remorse on heating this, and exclaimed, “I have sinned against the Lord;” and he sung a penitential psalm, waiting for the coming of the Lord, who washes and makes clean the man who had 499 been fast bound with [the chain of] sin. In like manner it was with regard to Solomon, while he continued to judge uprightly, and to declare the wisdom of God, and built the temple as the type of truth, and set forth the glories of God, and announced the peace about to come upon the nations, and prefigured the kingdom of Christ, and spake three thousand parables about the Lord’s advent, and five thousand songs, singing praise to God, and expounded the wisdom of God in creation, [discoursing] as to the nature of every tree, every herb, and of all fowls, quadrupeds, and fishes; and he said, “Will God whom the heavens cannot contain, really dwell with men upon the earth?” And he pleased God, and was the admiration of all; and all kings of the earth sought an interview with him (quaerebant faciem ejus) that they might hear the wisdom which God had conferred upon him. The queen of the south, too, came to him from the ends of the earth, to ascertain the wisdom that was in him: she whom the Lord also referred to as one who should rise up in the judgment with the nations of those men who do hear His words, and do not believe in Him, and should condemn them, inasmuch as she submitted herself to the wisdom announced by the servant of God, while these men despised that wisdom which proceeded directly from the Son of God. For Solomon was a servant, but Christ is indeed the Son of God, and the Lord of Solomon. While, therefore, he served God without blame, and ministered to His dispensations, then was he glorified: but when he took wives from all nations, and permitted them to set up idols in Israel, the Scripture spake thus concerning him: “And King Solomon was a lover of women, and he took to himself foreign women; and it came to pass, when Solomon was old, his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God. And the foreign women turned away his heart after strange gods. And Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord: he did not walk after the Lord, as did David his father. And the Lord was angry with Solomon; for his heart was not perfect with the Lord, as was the heart of David his father.” The Scripture has thus sufficiently reproved him, as the presbyter remarked, in order that no flesh may glory in the sight of the Lord.

2. It was for this reason, too, that the Lord descended into the regions beneath the earth, preaching His advent there also, and [declaring] the remission of sins received by those who believe in Him. Now all those believed in Him who had hope towards Him, that is, those who proclaimed His advent, and submitted to His dispensations, the righteous men, the prophets, and the patriarchs, to whom He remitted sins in the same way as He did to us, which sins we should not lay to their charge, if we would not despise the grace of God. For as these men did not impute unto us (the Gentiles) our transgressions, which we wrought before Christ was manifested among us, so also it is not right that we should lay blame upon those who sinned before Christ’s coming. For “all men come short of the glory of God,” and are not justified of themselves, but by the advent of the Lord, — they who earnestly direct their eyes towards His light. And it is for our instruction that their actions have been committed to writing, that we might know, in the first place, that our God and theirs is one, and that sins do not please Him although committed by men of renown; and in the second place, that we should keep from wickedness. For if these men of old time, who preceded us in the gifts [bestowed upon them], and for whom the Son of God had not yet suffered, when they committed any sin and served fleshly lusts, were rendered objects of such disgrace, what shall the men of the present day suffer, who have despised the Lord’s coming, and become the slaves of their own lusts? And truly the death of the Lord became [the means of] healing and remission of sins to the former, but Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, “For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.”

3. Thou wilt notice, too, that the transgressions of the common people have been described in like manner, not for the sake of those who did then transgress, but as a means of instruction unto us, and that we should understand that it is one and the same God against whom these 500 men sinned, and against whom certain persons do now transgress from among those who profess to have believed in Him. But this also, [as the presbyter states,] has Paul declared most plainly in the Epistle to the Corinthians, when he says, “Brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and were all baptized unto Moses in the sea, and did all eat the same spiritual meat, and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them; and the rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. These things were for our example (in figuram nostri), to the intent that we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted; neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them, as it is written: The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them also did, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. But all these things happened to them in a figure, and were written for our admonition, upon whom the end of the world (saeculorum) is come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.”
 
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DeaconDean

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I'm not gonna argue any more.

But I will say what Baptists in America for the last 268 years have said:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by the Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved,

philadelphia confession-chapter 17

We believe that all those who are chosen by the Father, redeemed by the Son, and sanctified by the Spirit, shall certainly and finally persevere, so that not one of them shall ever perish, but shall have everlasting life.

goat yard delcaration of faith

We believe all those who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world are, in time, effectually called regenerated, converted, and sanctified; and are kept by the power of God, through faith, unto salvation.

1806 Mississippi Baptist Confession | The Reformed Reader

We believe in election from eternity, effectual calling by the Holy Spirit of God, and justification in his sight only by the imputation of Christ's righteousness. And we believe that they who are thus elected, effectually called, and justified, will persevere through grace to the end, that none of them be lost.

Principles of Faith of the Sandy Creek Association | The Reformed Reader

Of the Perseverance of Saints We believe that such only are real believers as endure unto the end; that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors; that a special Providence watches over their welfare; and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith | The Reformed Reader

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

abstract of principles contents

We believe (a) that such only are real believers as endure unto the end; (b) that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors; (c) that a special providence watches over their welfare; and (d) that they are kept by the power of God through faith unto eternal salvation.

Articles Put Forth by the Baptist Bible Union of America | The Reformed Reader

All real believers endure to the end. Their continuance in well-doing is the mark which distinguishes them from mere professors. A special Providence cares for them, and they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

1925 Baptist Faith and Message

All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the State of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the cause of Christ, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

faith and message

This is what Baptist have believed. This is what we wrote down in our historic Baptist Confessions. And this is what I believe, preach, and teach.

And...I can think of one person long before the Reformers who taught this doctrine.

A TREATISE ON THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE, by AURELIUS AUGUSTIN, BISHOP OF HIPPO, THE SECOND BOOK. ADDRESSED TO PROSPER AND HILARY. AD. 428 OR 429

Found here: Reformation Files

And Augustine said:

Now, moreover, when the saints say, “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them,-which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him,-that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received.

-Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance 9

And he also said:

For we are speaking of that perseverance whereby one perseveres unto the end, and if this is given, one does persevere unto the end; but if one does not persevere unto the end, it is not given, which I have already sufficiently discussed above. Let not men say, then, that perseverance is given to any one to the end, except when the end itself has come, and he to whom it has been given has been found to have persevered unto the end… But since no one has perseverance to the end except he who does persevere to the end, many people may have it, but none can lose it.

-Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance 10

He says further:

Let the inquirer still go on, and say, “Why is it that to some who have in good faith worshipped Him He has not given to persevere to the end?” Why except because he does not speak falsely who says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, doubtless they would have continued with us.” Are there, then, two natures of men? By no means. If there were two natures there would not be any grace, for there would be given a gratuitous deliverance to none if it were paid as a debt to nature. But it seems to men that all who appear good believers ought to receive perseverance to the end. But God has judged it to be better to mingle some who would not persevere with a certain number of His saints, so that those for whom security from temptation in this life is not desirable may not be secure. For that which the apostle says, checks many from mischievous elation: “Wherefore let him who seems to stand take heed lest he fall.” But he who falls, falls by his own will, and he who stands, stands by God's will. “For God is able to make him stand;” therefore he is not able to make himself stand, but God.

-Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance 19

Going back a little further, it is recorded:

"Then there is the placing the wool on the tree. This means that the kingdom of Jesus is on the cross, and that they who set their hope on Him shall live for ever." -Barnabus, 8:5

And in another place he says:

"This He saith, because we go down into the water laden with sins and filth, and rise up from it bearing fruit in the heart, resting our fear and hope on Jesus in the spirit. And whosoever shall eat of these shall live forever; He meaneth this; whosoever, saith He, shall hear these things spoken and shall believe, shall live forever." -Barnabus, 11:11

So I know someone who before the 1500's taught this, and I know two somebodies who taught this from the first century and from the fifth.

And having said that, I am going to bow out gracefully.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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