Eternal Security

[dies-l]

for those that believe you can fall away:

if you are saved then you can't fall away or jump yourself out of His hands:

Jude 24-25
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
KJV

He is able to keep you from falling, you believe that He is able to save you but He is not able to keep you, then you will fall away because you never really had faith in Him to save you. for you have been taught that it is up to you to keep yourself saved, this is another gospel:

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
KJV

But now to preach that one can call upon the Name of the Lord, and continue in their old lifestyle is also another gospel, old things pass away, all things become new. however that passing from the old to the new is a maturity, as new born babes on milk, and as in real life in the spiritual side some mature faster than others, some fruits trees bear fruit faster than others. the first time you see a little baby steal candy do you throw them in jail or cast them our of your home and forbid them never to come back because they stole from you?? NO !!! you teach it that this is wrong to steal. so where is the corrections/discipleship in the churches, or what is the first thing taught in most discipleship classes? TITHE, give me your pocketbook this is the first thing you must do now that you are a Christian!! ok if we love God we will give with a cheerful heart. but giving is something learned, we are choking the babes, by telling them if the Love God they will give to the church, instead of telling them to love God with all their heart to die to self and walk in the spirit. we have made it a financial gospel/a gospel that can be bought. now if you give meat to a babe and it chokes and dies or even chokes enough to cause brain damage(that it don't know what to do the rest of it's life), who is responsible, for this mishap, you that gave it , or the Babe that eat it???

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
KJV

NEVER PERISH. No man is able to pluck them out, no man includes yourself. however if we are His we will follow!!!

So, what of people who do fall away? As Jesus said there would be some, and experience shows that there are many. Are you saying that they are saved nonetheless or are you saying that they were never really saved to begin with? I would say that the former is flatly contrary to sound biblical teaching and the latter is a far better answer, but I don't think it is the most biblically sound answer. But, ultimately, this really seems to come down to the same tired predestination/election/Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, and I doubt that it is possible to convince a die-hard Calvinist to consider my position without first convincing them that Calvinism (at least in its most extreme forms) is problematic. And, I acknowledge that I am not going to convert anyone out of Calvinism (nor do I really care to) on thread on the internet about Eternal Security.

So, I am content to accept that, so long as you are not teaching the damnable "sinner's prayer" heresy that insists that so long as you have said the "sinner's prayer" (or had some other genuine conversion "experience") and really meant it, then you have eternal assurance of salvation, I will not try to change your mind.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Eternal Security is simply this: If you really believe in Christ it is because you were predestined to salvation. You couldn't believe unless you were regenerated by the work of God because you are naturally dead in your sins. Since if you believe, that means you are already regenerated that means that you were effectually called and saved by the power of God. Since it is God who predestined you to salvation nothing can take that gift away from you.

There are two kinds of people in the visible church, saved and unsaved. All of those passages that speak of falling away are examples of people in the visible church who are not saved. So you see a lot of baptized people falling away from the level of grace they have been given. Those who are predestined to salvation, however, can never fall away because that would thwart the plans of God and that isn't possible.

So, if you really have faith in Christ, you've been saved by the power of God. He has chosen you to be alive with him forever.

There are five major (and very many lesser) problems with this view.

1. It is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

2. It is a doctrine of arrogance—I have been chosen by God, but you have not. Jesus chose to die for my sins, but not for yours. I am saved, one of God’s elect, but you were born into this world damned to hell. God loves me, but he reviles you. I am righteous in Christ, but you are a totally depraved sinner with no hope of redemption.

3. God did not pick and choose who to save, hating some and loving others—“God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” Calvin did not change what the inspired word of God says—he wrongly interpreted it and convinced multitudes of others to believe His gravely wrong interpretation of the Scriptures.

4. The Bible, the Early Church Fathers, and 2,000 years of Church history tell of countless thousands of men and woman who had a true, genuine and proven faith in Christ but who subsequently abandoned their faith in Christ.

5. God is infinitely holy, and, therefore, for men to sin has never been a part of God’s plan. Every time a Calvinist or any other man or woman, boy or girl, sins, the plan of God for man is thwarted. God, in accord with His sovereign will, chose to create man with a free will and the freedom to love him or hate Him, serve Him or rebel against Him. Adam sinned in the garden and was cast out of it a sinner, but his free will and his ability to choose good or evil was left intact.

Deut. 30:19. “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
20. by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Joshua 24: 14. “Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.”

There is not the slightest hint in these passages of Scripture that suggest that the persons being addressed, a multitude of persons, had anything other than a free will to choose between loving God and serving Him, or setting Him aside and serving other gods. Are we to formulate our soteriology on the basis of what Calvin taught; or are we to formulate our soteriology on the basis of the Scriptures in which we find the prophets, Jesus, and the New Testament writers pleading with their audience to repent and believe, a pleading that makes no sense whatsoever unless the audience had the freedom to respond positively to it if they so chose. And indeed, some did choose to respond to it positively, and others chose not to.


Ecclesiasticus 15:14. It was he who created humankind in the beginning,
and he left them in the power of their own free choice.
15. If you choose, you can keep the commandments,
and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
16. He has placed before you fire and water;
stretch out your hand for whichever you choose.
17. Before each person are life and death,
and whichever one chooses will be given.
18. For great is the wisdom of the Lord;
he is mighty in power and sees everything;
19. his eyes are on those who fear him,
and he knows every human action.
20. He has not commanded anyone to be wicked,
and he has not given anyone permission to sin. (Apocrypha, New Revised Standard Version)

Although Ecclesiasticus, also known as the Book of Sirach, is regarded by Protestants, including myself, to be an Apocryphal book, it is theologically sound and was included in the Old Testament Canon until it was removed during the Protestant Reformation. Indeed, the Book of Sirach came to be known as the Liber Ecclesiasticus, meaning the “Church Book,” because it was extensively used by the very early church to teach moral behavior.

(All quotations are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)

 

[DD2008]

There are five major (and very many lesser) problems with this view.

1. It is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

It is taught all over the bible.

Romans 8:29-30 NIV
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4-11 NIV
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

The above passages are quite explicit. The rest of the bible teaches that God is absolutley sovereign.

Try this: The Sovereignty of God

Your other 4 assertions all fail because your first assertion is the falsehood holding them together.

 

[phoenixdem]

Deacon Dean

"But proceed if you wish."

No, there comes a time when it is better to stop discussing a matter.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

It is taught all over the bible.

Romans 8:29-30 NIV
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4-11 NIV
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

The above passages are quite explicit. The rest of the bible teaches that God is absolutley sovereign.

Try this: The Sovereignty of God

Your other 4 assertions all fail because your first assertion is the falsehood holding them together.

I do not have the time at the moment to respond in any detail to what you incorrectly allege about Romans 8:29-30, but the falseness of your claim that the passage is “quite explicit” is manifested by the fact that it was never so interpreted during the first 1,500 years of the church, and it has not been so interpreted by the large majority of the Church during the most recent 500 years. Indeed, recent Biblical scholarship has been responsible for Calvin’s interpretation to increasingly lose favor among New Testament scholars.

Hundreds of commentaries have been published on the Epistle to the Romans (I have about 240 of them in my personal library), scores of them on the Greek text of the epistle (I have most of these in my personal library), and Romans 8:29-30 has been the subject of thousands of academic studies and countless debates and arguments. The meaning of it may be explicitly clear to you, but it most certainly is not clear to the scholars who have studied it.


In the Greek text, Ephesians 1:4-11 is a portion of a very long sentence that comprises vv. Eph. 1:3-14, the entire sentence being a doxology in which the main clause (an independent and autonomous unit of expression that can be correctly punctuated as a sentence) is “Blessed be the God and Father” found in v. 3. Everything else in this very long sentence is a lengthy series of subordinate phrases and clauses supporting the statement in the main clause. Therefore, Eph. 1:3-14 is not a series of objective theological statements that tell us the whole story, but only a small part of the story—a story that tells us what God has done for us, but does not tell us what we must do—that is, continue in our faith, or as Jesus put it, “abide” in Him.

 

[DD2008]

[/b]

I do not have the time at the moment to respond in any detail to what you incorrectly allege about Romans 8:29-30, but the falseness of your claim that the passage is “quite explicit” is manifested by the fact that it was never so interpreted during the first 1,500 years of the church, and it has not been so interpreted by the large majority of the Church during the most recent 500 years. Indeed, recent Biblical scholarship has been responsible for Calvin’s interpretation to increasingly lose favor among New Testament scholars.

First of all, you are always talking about the first 1500 years of the church. The facts are that the church was polluted with false teachers right from the start, and was already dealing with them while the new testament was being written. That's why we had a reformation. To get back to the scriptures. The kingdom of God is within us, and those who still hold to man made doctrines such as infant baptism, and a mutable God haven't taken the scriptures to heart and reformed enough. They are still following the traditions of men formed to weild power over the ignorant.

Hundreds of commentaries have been published on the Epistle to the Romans (I have about 240 of them in my personal library), scores of them on the Greek text of the epistle (I have most of these in my personal library), and Romans 8:29-30 has been the subject of thousands of academic studies and countless debates and arguments. The meaning of it may be explicitly clear to you, but it most certainly is not clear to the scholars who have studied it.

Head knowledge of competing ideas does not equate to heart knowledge. I don't care what 30 different people striving for recognition said. I will read the scriptures myself, pray to the Lord myself, discuss it with Christians I trust in my local church, and consider commentaries of only those who exhibit real faith in Christ such as I have experienced.

In the Greek text, Ephesians 1:4-11 is a portion of a very long sentence that comprises vv. Eph. 1:3-14, the entire sentence being a doxology in which the main clause (an independent and autonomous unit of expression that can be correctly punctuated as a sentence) is “Blessed be the God and Father” found in v. 3. Everything else in this very long sentence is a lengthy series of subordinate phrases and clauses supporting the statement in the main clause. Therefore, Eph. 1:3-14 is not a series of objective theological statements that tell us the whole story, but only a small part of the story—a story that tells us what God has done for us, but does not tell us what we must do—that is, continue in our faith, or as Jesus put it, “abide” in Him.

It clearly proves an elect is predestined to salvation. That elect will live by the examples laid out in scripture if they are indeed elect. God's elect cannot become non elect because God is immutable.

As evidenced here:

Malachi 3:6 NIV
"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

The Lord tells us himself that he doesn't change and since he doesn't change but abides by his purpose and plan he isn't driven by emotion to change his mind and destroy the wicked right now. Since he doesn't change that means those who he elected in eternity past are still elected in eternity future.

 

[Hupomone10]

I know I can't debate in this forum since I'm not Baptist...but I just wanted to ask this question...

The Pentecostal says someone lost their salvation...the Baptist says they were never really saved to begin with...can someone explain to me what the difference is in these two statements?

I'm a Baptist presently attending a Bible church.

Yeah, no difference. They're both wrong.

Blessings,
H.

 

[Hupomone10]

Oh yes, and I don't believe God is the author of confusion which is why I stand by saying that OSAS beliefs offer no assurance, but only confusion. Want proof? Look no further than myself, 98critw (sp?), RobertZ, Kitty, and various others I know (if any of these people want me to remove their name let me know -- sorry if you wish to not be mentioned). But again, OSAS can only provide skepticism.

(By the way, your post is great; I'm quoting only the part I wanted to respond to)

I submit that it is some of the emphases of the 5-Point Calvinist philosophy that have caused you this confusion, not the part of God's Word that gives assurance that He will keep those committed to Him.

Jesus said "come to Me" for a reason. He didn't say "sit back and I'll draw you if I want you to come." Our assurance was never to be because we think God sovereignly elected us. In the end there is no assurance in that; for it is arbitrary at best, presumption at worst. You can tell your conscious mind all day long that God chose you and gave you faith, but if you haven't chosen to flee to the cross and meet Christ there in faith as an act of your will, your subconscious knows better and it will be your worst enemy (or best friend, depending).

FaceofBear, I know my statements will be attacked, but that's ok. I'm not writing it for them, but for you and the group you mentioned. Please consider whether 5-Point Calvinism was helpful or detrimental to your growth and to freedom from sinful strongholds.

I'm also interested in whether this different perspective is helpful in these areas.

Blessings,
H.

 

[DD2008]

I'm a Baptist presently attending a Bible church.

Yeah, no difference. They're both wrong.

Blessings,
H.

It's not possible for them to both be wrong so the AOG is wrong. A person is either saved or he isn't. So, if a person claims to have been saved and lives like the devil, "chances are" he was never saved. If he had been saved he wouldn't live like the devil and he would still be saved because a person who is saved cannot become unsaved because that means they were never saved to begin with. If you are saved, it means just that, you are saved, safe in the arms of Christ and it is unchangeable. Saved people love God and the things of God, unsaved people don't, they love worldly things. Many unsaved claimed to be saved but the truth is they are really just self absorbed and have tried to purchase spiritual fire insurance. A real saved person will love Jesus and follow him.

 

[Hupomone10]

(the list)... Mark Dever ...
God Bless

Till all are one.

Thanks, Dean. I have a friend who is Arminian partly, and he has a very passionate heart for the Lord. I have accepted and moved beyond God's acceptance of me in Christ and eternal security so long that I no longer have any references on it on my shelf (most of mine are books, not internet.)

I saved Mike's posts, and I thank you for this list of resources.
Just so you know sometimes what you do is appreciated.

Blessings,
H.

 

[DD2008]

FaceofBear, I know my statements will be attacked, but that's ok. I'm not writing it for them, but for you and the group you mentioned. Please consider whether 5-Point Calvinism was helpful or detrimental to your growth and to freedom from sinful strongholds.

Actualy these people are confused because the anti calvinists attack their assurance with ideas that attack the sovereignty of God.

Let me say this to you. There is no assurance of salvation outside of the sovereignty of God. If God isn't sovereign and in control he can't be trusted to do what he says he will do, his prophecies can't be trusted to come true, and you can't trust him to save you. But if he really is omnipotent, omnicient, omnipresent, immutable, and sovereign, you can trust without a shadow of a doubt that he is in charge, nothing will stay his word and all he says will come to pass, so when he says "I will raise you up on the last day." You know it will happen, because he is God.

 

[faceofbear]

"you believe your interpretation is as infallible as scripture itself, and I mean that as kind as possible. "

I believe my interpretation and that of countless others is correct. I believe Christ when He tells us that His sheep will never be lost.


I believe that putting salvation in the hands of man rather than in God's is dishonoring Him. What do you believe?

Yes, but you also ignore Christ stating that there are some in Him who do not bear fruit and will be thrown into the fire.

I do not believe that salvation is in the hands of man, nor have I ever said so. Salvation belongs to God but it does not nullify that man must abide.

Let me illustrate what you are saying.

If I say, "A bunker will provide shelter from a bomb." You still have the responsibility of abiding in the bunker. Just because you abide in the bunker, doesn't mean you saved yourself. The bunker saved you. We have a responsibility of abiding in Christ, but that doesn't mean we saved our self. But you are saying a person saves them self, which is contrary to scripture. Paul taught that he entrusted Christ with something and that God was able to keep it. But does that mean Paul saved Himself by entrusting Himself to God? OR is God saving Him through Paul's entrusting. I am saved through faith, not by faith. So when I choose to place my faith in Christ, I am still saved by grace.

Your basically arguing that if someone gave you a gift and you had to reach out and accept it, that you yourself earned the gift simply because you accepted it. Such thinking is philosophically illogical and theologically corrupted.

"Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
-Jesus

 

[faceofbear]

Actualy these people are confused because the anti calvinists attack their assurance with ideas that attack the sovereignty of God.

In regards to this, when I was a high Calvinist, God's sovereignty did bring much humility, thankfulness, and some assurance. However, I disagree with the overall statement. Calvinism, though they believe in assurance, cannot provide assurance because they hold the belief that God gives people a false faith, assurance, and works. I've read books by people on assurance. John MacArthur has books on assurance. But the issue is simple. You either have fruits, and you're saved because you have genuine faith, or you don't. This is what most Christians believe, including Calvinists, and it is fairly biblical. However, it doesn't provide assurance because I can have fruits for 5 years and then fall away and then I was "never truly saved." Therefore, what if someone died before their fruits died? What if your fruits are false fruits and your faith false faith and your assurance false assurance? Because if you believe that someone can believe yet not be saved because they have a false belief, there is nothing separating you from such a person. There are few Calvinists who disagree with this doctrine, Don Fortner (who is one of my more favorite preachers -- and ironically is probably borderline hyper Calvinist) being one of them.

And I think you'll find that many people who consider themselves Calvinists, really don't believe what Calvin believed. They believe eternal security, but they don't understand a synergistic view to interpreting the Bible -- which is compatible, and I find that most people who consider themselves Calvinist -- apart from the High and Hyper Calvinists (such as Dean, JM, and mrquglw -- forgive me if I spoke wrongly of any of you, and correct me, but I think my judgment is fairly accurate), are more along the lines of an Arminian view with a belief in OSAS. Or if not Arminian, synergist. The misunderstanding is that people mistake syngerism for pelagianism.

In fact, talking to many people who consider themselves "reformed," "monergist," or "Calvinist," I find that their beliefs are actually more along the lines of early protestant Arminianism close to Arminius himself or Wesleyan, not pelagian. It's just many books and various people misrepresent the view because of liberalized pelagian views which could be said to come from an Arminian stand point, but there's also liberalized Calvinistic views which distort classical Calvinism as well.

 

[His_disciple3]

It is taught all over the bible.

Romans 8:29-30 NIV
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

But it is also clear that with God there is no respect of persons, with God it is impossible to please Him without faith, So He foreknew the ones that would use that measure of faith that He gave to every man, and with that foreknowledge He predestined those by their faith. why it is so hard for calvinist to understand that if they say that God can not allow someone to choose Him, is telling a Sovereign God what he can do and not do, which is the very same thing that they accuse us free-willed.
If God had not wanted us to have a choice then He would not have given us this commandment:

Exodus 34:14
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
KJV

we have a choice, that us given to us by a Sovereign God,

 

[DD2008]

In regards to this, when I was a high Calvinist, God's sovereignty did bring much humility, thankfulness, and some assurance. However, I disagree with the overall statement. Calvinism, though they believe in assurance, cannot provide assurance because they hold the belief that God gives people a false faith, assurance, and works. I've read books by people on assurance. John MacArthur has books on assurance. But the issue is simple. You either have fruits, and you're saved because you have genuine faith, or you don't.

Assurance simply comes from knowing Christ. It's part of salvation.

 

[DD2008]

It is taught all over the bible.

Romans 8:29-30 NIV
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

But it is also clear that with God there is no respect of persons, with God it is impossible to please Him without faith, So He foreknew the ones that would use that measure of faith that He gave to every man, and with that foreknowledge He predestined those by their faith. why it is so hard for calvinist to understand that if they say that God can not allow someone to choose Him, is telling a Sovereign God what he can do and not do, which is the very same thing that they accuse us free-willed.
If God had not wanted us to have a choice then He would not have given us this commandment:

Exodus 34:14
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
KJV

we have a choice, that us given to us by a Sovereign God,

Everyone makes his choice according to his nature. The natural man always chooses against God the regenerated man always chooses for God.

 

[Hupomone10]

It's not possible for them to both be wrong so the AOG is wrong. A person is either saved or he isn't. So, if a person claims to have been saved and lives like the devil, "chances are" he was never saved. If he had been saved he wouldn't live like the devil and he would still be saved because a person who is saved cannot become unsaved because that means they were never saved to begin with. If you are saved, it means just that, you are saved, safe in the arms of Christ and it is unchangeable. Saved people love God and the things of God, unsaved people don't, they love worldly things. Many unsaved claimed to be saved but the truth is they are really just self absorbed and have tried to purchase spiritual fire insurance. A real saved person will love Jesus and follow him.

I understand where you're coming from, brother. This is what doctrinally seems like it should be the case. And it's an easy pat answer. But when we deal with the lives of people we know, they fall somewhere in between. I know people who because of personal trials and conflicts fell into adultery, porn, alcoholism, and had a hard time pulling out of it. All the while they were habitually sinning. They were saved before, they fell away from faith in the sense of walking by faith, became to all outward appearances a reprobate, then later came back to the Lord, followed Him by faith and yet had no interim salvation experience.

That's what I'm talking about. They didn't lose it. They were not cases that were not ever saved to start with, for they do not now believe in the Lord Jesus Christ any more than they did before. The difference is that they have fallen in their walk, gotten back up, and have grown in their walk.

I am one of those. I am no more saved right now than I was 10 years ago.

Blessings,
H.

 

[faceofbear]

Assurance simply comes from knowing Christ. It's part of salvation.

And there is no telling a false assurance from true assurance. Hence the command to work out your salvation with fear and trembling and to make sure of our call and election sure. But this isn't possible if God grants false faith, works, and assurance.

 

[His_disciple3]

to DD2008 concerning your quote:

Everyone makes his choice according to his nature. The natural man always chooses against God the regenerated man always chooses for God.

I don't agree with this statement, For Paul Himself said; what he should do he did not and what He shouldn't do He did. one fine example of this was in acts when he wanted to go back to Jerusalem to observe the passover/ the tradition he had always kept as a Jew. The Holy Ghost told him not to go, even sent a Prophet to Him to warn him that he would be bound up if he went. paul was regenerated and choose to go against God for traditions of the law. if the regenarated man always chose God then we wouldn't need Chastisement, for He only chastises those that He loves , if the regenerated always went with God there would be no chastisement.

 

[phoenixdem]

"Yes, but you also ignore Christ stating that there are some in Him who do not bear fruit and will be thrown into the fire."

Let's talk for a moment about the good and bad seed. The Holy Bible, Book of Matthew, tells you what the meaning is of the good and bad seed. In Chapter 13 of Matthew,

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the
kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;​

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of
the world; and the reapers are the angels.​

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it​

be in the end of this world.


"I do not believe that salvation is in the hands of man, nor have I ever said so. Salvation belongs to God but it does not nullify that man must abide."

If there is anything that man must do for his salvation, he is part of that salvation. If one of God's sheep wanders from the flock, God knows where that sheep is and will bring him back to that fold. Go back to the idea of the Shepherd and the sheep. It is the Shepherd who tend the sheep, the sheep don't tend themselves.

"Let me illustrate what you are saying.

If I say, "A bunker will provide shelter from a bomb." You still have the responsibility of abiding in the bunker. Just because you abide in the bunker, doesn't mean you saved yourself. The bunker saved you. We have a responsibility of abiding in Christ, but that doesn't mean we saved our self. But you are saying a person saves them self, which is contrary to scripture. Paul taught that he entrusted Christ with something and that God was able to keep it. But does that mean Paul saved Himself by entrusting Himself to God? OR is God saving Him through Paul's entrusting. I am saved through faith, not by faith. So when I choose to place my faith in Christ, I am still saved by grace."

Salvation is an unmerited gift of God to His people. I repeat unmerited. There is nothing in man himself that makes him sinless. We are saved by faith, a gift of God. It isn't something we are born with. Do you believe that man is born with a sin nature from Adam? Can a sin nature save the sinner. Even the Law of Moses cannot save the sinner. In fact, the Law convicts the sinner of his sins and renders that sinner impotent in the face of his condemnation.

Your basically arguing that if someone gave you a gift and you had to reach out and accept it, that you yourself earned the gift simply because you accepted it. Such thinking is philosophically illogical and theologically corrupted.

This is not true. There is nothing in the Grace of God or in anything I have said that would logically give you that impression. Accepting a gift and going to God for your salvation when you are dead in your sins, which the Holy Bible tells us in the Book of Ephesians 2 is the case, are two entirely different things.

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;​

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this
world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit​

that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

"Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
-Jesus

When you read in the Book of John that none of Christ's will perish, what do you understand? Do you think there is a misinterpretation or well, Christ didn't know what He was saying. Your cited verse are the words of Christ and so are mine. How do they fit together? Here is my cited verse from the tenth chapter of John,

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:​

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,​

neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Is "they shall never perish" not a true translation? Ok, this citation is from the King James Version. Let's try the American Standard Version.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:​

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,​

neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

No, that isn't it. The words are the same. I think I will believe what God Himself tells us about the security of His sheep. So, then those who will perish must not belong to Him.