Eternal Security

[phoenixdem]

I'm not gonna argue any more.

It does seem a little like beating one's head on a wall, but we are told to contend for the faith.

When I read from the Book of John, these verses, and others besides,

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is
able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
​

10:30 I and my Father are one.

The Lord does seem to be saying His sheep have eternal life forevermore, and I wouldn't want to tell God He doesn't know what He is doing or tell Him that He cannot do what He proposes. I will let others do that if they so desire.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

The fact that the doctrine of eternal security has not been found in any document written earlier than the 16th century has caused unspeakable embarrassment to the advocates of Reformed theology and to Baptists who hold to either Reformed theology or the doctrine of eternal security as it has come to be taught in the large majority of Baptist churches today. Therefore, we should not doubt but what some less than scrupulous persons would attempt to deceive others into believing that the doctrine of eternal security was taught by some Christians prior to the 16th century. Some time ago, in another thread, John Gill was quoted in which he quoted out of context from the writing of the Early Church Father to make it appear that they taught the Reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. Therefore, I quoted in context the very same Early Church Fathers in which they explicitly taught the doctrine of conditional security.

It has also been falsely alleged by some that the Epistle of Barnabas teaches the Reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints even though that could not possibly be further from the truth. Indeed, the Epistle of Barnabas is cited by scholars to show that the very early Church believed in the conditional security of the saints. The epistle does teach that Christians have eternal life so long as they remain faithful, but it also teaches that our salvation in conditional upon our continued faith in, and obedience to, Christ. Here are some quotes from the epistle, as translated by J. B. Lightfoot, to document this fact:

Barnabas 1:3
Wherefore also I the more congratulate myself hoping to be saved, for that I truly see the Spirit poured out among you from the riches of the fount of the Lord. So greatly did the much-desired sight of you astonish me respecting you.

Barnabas 2:8
Nay, this was My command unto them, Let none of you bear a grudge of evil against his neighbor in his heart, and love you not a false oath.

Barnabas 2:9
So we ought to perceive, unless we are without understanding, the mind of the goodness of our Father; for He speaketh to us, desiring us not to go astray like them but to seek how we may approach Him.

Barnabas 2:10
Thus then speaketh He to us; The sacrifice unto God is a broken heart, the smell of a sweet savor unto the Lord is a heart that glorifies its Maker. We ought therefore, brethren, to learn accurately concerning our salvation, lest the Evil One having effected an entrance of error in us should fling us away from our life.

Barnabas 3:6
To this end therefore, my brethren, He that is long-suffering, foreseeing that the people whom He had prepared in His well-beloved would believe in simplicity, manifested to us beforehand concerning all things, that we might not as novices shipwreck ourselves upon their law.

Barnabas 4:1
It behooves us therefore to investigate deeply concerning the present, and to search out the things which have power to save us. Let us therefore flee altogether from all the works of lawlessness, lest the works of lawlessness overpower us; and let us loathe the error of the present time, that we may be loved for that which is to come.

Barnabas 4:2
Let us give no relaxation to our soul that it should have liberty to consort with sinners and wicked men, lest haply we be made like unto them.

Barnabas 4:9
But though I would fain write many things, not as a teacher, but as becometh one who loveth you not to fall short of that which we possess, I was anxious to write to you, being your devoted slave. Wherefore let us take heed in these last days. For the whole time of our faith shall profit us nothing, unless we now, in the season of lawlessness and in the offenses that shall be, as becometh sons of God, offer resistance, that the Black One may not effect an entrance.

Barnabas 4:12
The Lord judgeth the world without respect of persons; each man shall receive according to his deeds. If he be good, his righteousness shall go before him in the way; if he be evil, the recompense of his evil-doing is before him; lest perchance,

Barnabas 4:13
if we relax as men that are called, we should slumber over our sins, and the prince of evil receive power against us and thrust us out from the kingdom of the Lord.

Barnabas 4:14
Moreover understand this also, my brothers. When ye see that after so many signs and wonders wrought in Israel, even then they were abandoned, let us give heed, lest haply we be found, as the scripture saith, many are called but few are chosen.

Barnabas 5:4
Now the scripture saith; Not unjustly is the net spread for the birds. He meaneth this that a man shall justly perish, who havingthe knowledge of the way of righteousness forceth himself into the way of darkness.

Barnabas 7:11
But what meaneth it, that they place the wool in the midst of the thorns? It is a type of Jesus set forth for the Church, since whosoever should desire to take away the scarlet wool it behoved him to suffer many things owing to the terrible nature of the thorn, and through affliction to win the mastery over it. Thus, He saith, they that desire to see Me, and to attain unto My kingdom, must lay hold on Me through tribulation and affliction.

Barnabas 19:7
Thou shalt be subject unto thy masters as to a type of God in shame and fear. Thou shalt not command in bitterness thy bondservant or thine handmaid who set their hope on the same God, lest haply, they should cease to fear the God who is over both of you; for He came not to call with respect of persons, but to call those whom the Spirit hath prepared.

Barnabas 21:6
And be ye taught of God, seeking diligently what the Lord requireth of you, and act that ye may be found in the day of judgment.

Let us all be careful when reading what others have to say, lest we find ourselves believing that which is not true.

 

[phoenixdem]

"The fact that the doctrine of eternal security has not been found in any document written earlier than the 16th century"

Where do you think the quote from John came from, the Armenian Home Shopping Catalog?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

It does seem a little like beating one's head on a wall, but we are told to contend for the faith.

When I read from the Book of John, these verses, and others besides,

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:​

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is
able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.​

10:30 I and my Father are one.

The Lord does seem to be saying His sheep have eternal life forevermore, and I wouldn't want to tell God He doesn't know what He is doing or tell Him that He cannot do what He proposes. I will let others do that if they so desire.

Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified! I have already addressed this matter in this thread, but I shall attempt in this post to make what I wrote above more clear.

John 10:27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)

Here it is in context,

John 10:22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many readers. Compare these two passages:

Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

Wisdom 3:1. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God,
and no torment shall touch them. (NAB, 1986)

Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety in it. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.

1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.” (NASB, 1995)

In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and made promises to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithful abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

You just can't stop, can you? God also killed many Hebrews in the Sinai on the way to the promised land and on many other occasions. Different people, different covenant. were those people given the gift of the Holy Spirit? Come on, you should know better than this.

1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. (NASB, 1995)

 

[phoenixdem]

I

 

[His_disciple3]

My faith is in Christ and what the Scriptures teach that He did for me; my faith is not in what some people mistakenly claim He did for me.

I believe with every ounce of my being that the historical teaching of salvation is true, and if I am wrong (but of course I am not), so was every Christian for 1,500 years, including the very men whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon. If I am wrong, the New Testament was so very poorly written that no one, not even the most gifted scholars, were able to understand the doctrine of salvation for 1,500 years; and if that is true, the New Testament was so very poorly written that it cannot possibly be the inspired Word of God but is merely junk literature written by men with extremely poor writing skills. If I am wrong, the New Testament was so very poorly written and thus so very poorly understood that we have absolutely no assurance that anyone correctly understands any of it today. Therefore, if I am wrong, we have absolutely nothing upon which to base our Christian faith but 27 books of poorly written junk literature.

I am not wrong—and neither was the entire Christian church wrong for 1,500 years, and the New Testament and the rest of the Bible are the inspired Word of God.

I, I, I, I, and I. sure hear alot I's in that, go ahead trust I, as far as me and My House we will trust the Lord God, The great I am, if anyone could had earned they way into heaven then Jesus would not had to die. But He did die, so If His death is not good enough for me. then I will not Fool myself in to thinking there is something I can do, for salvation is the Gift of God, through Jesus Christ, My faith is in God alone, not God and I is My salvation. But rather God is my salvation,

Galatians 2:17-21
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
KJV

these next scriptures are about some people that thought they could get in by their own merits, see how they believed they should be allowed in for what they had done, we have done this and done this, now these weren't saved and walked away, for Jesus clearly said "I NEVER KNEW YOU" why, for they had served Him, done mighty works in His Name, So why did Jesus saith He never knew them, because they trusted what they did for their Salvation and Not what he had done.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV


so if I trust in God to save me, then I will trust in God to keep me saved.

Jude 24-25
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
KJV

 

[phoenixdem]

If you want "Christian Unity" you need to stop trying to convince people of things not supported by facts.

 

[phoenixdem]

I, I, I, I, and I. sure hear alot I's in that, go ahead trust I, as far as me and My House we will trust the Lord God, The great I am, if anyone could had earned they way into heaven then Jesus would not had to die. But He did die, so If His death is not good enough for me. then I will not Fool myself in to thinking there is something I can do, for salvation is the Gift of God, through Jesus Christ, My faith is in God alone, not God and I is My salvation. But rather God is my salvation,

Galatians 2:17-21
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
KJV

these next scriptures are about some people that thought they could get in by their own merits, see how they believed they should be allowed in for what they had done, we have done this and done this, now these weren't saved and walked away, for Jesus clearly said "I NEVER KNEW YOU" why, for they had served Him, done mighty works in His Name, So why did Jesus saith He never knew them, because they trusted what they did for their Salvation and Not what he had done.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV


so if I trust in God to save me, then I will trust in God to keep me saved.

Jude 24-25
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
KJV

You're absolutely correct. The Holy Bible tells us that salvation is by faith through the grace of God. We can do nothing to earn salvation. We don't deserve salvation and we are lost in our sins until God reaches down to us and pulls us out of the mire.

 

[faceofbear]

If you want "Christian Unity" you need to stop trying to convince people of things not supported by facts.

I didn't realize my disagreeing with your interpretation of "facts" provides reason for insulting other Christians. Again, Arminian theology can be just as easily supported by scripture. People equally or more spiritual and intellectual than either you or myself have both faithfully examined scripture and have arrived at either Calvinism or Arminianism and have supported their beliefs by equal amounts of scripture, but it does not mean either of them are right -- nor that either of them are wrong. And it by nowise means that one view is completely heretical and damning. Paradoxes are found all over scripture, God's nature being one of them, but that doesn't devoid the truthfulness of His nature that is unimaginable by human reason. Just because you disagree with another interpretation doesn't mean that yours then becomes factual. Such a view is like saying, "Either the Earth is flat or it is quadrant," and leaving no room for the Earth being spherical.

However, I can tell you insulting other Christians, providing red herrings, and calling people blatant liars for disagreeing with you is no way to provide unity or to win believers in Christ or to your side. In fact, to be quite honest, many Calvinists are quite rude believing they are more intelligible than all other Christians. It's one of the very reasons I've question my Calvinistic beliefs -- not that Arminians have been too nice either.

And by the way, who said I was trying to convince anyone? All I am doing is showing that there are alternatives and that I am open to advice and an acceptance that I might be wrong because scripture tells me I'd be a fool to think I am right, but that the Lord will judge my heart.

What spiritual good has the dissension and insulting provided practically for you and its hearers? It seems to me that Paul would say that it provides no good for its hearers, but maybe that's just my false interpretation of scripture. To be quite frank, it just seems to me that you believe your interpretation is as infallible as scripture itself, and I mean that as kind as possible. Have you ever thought that many people, just as earnest as you about your interpretation, don't agree with you but believe they are being just as faithful to scripture?

 

[phoenixdem]

"you believe your interpretation is as infallible as scripture itself, and I mean that as kind as possible. "

I believe my interpretation and that of countless others is correct. I believe Christ when He tells us that His sheep will never be lost.


I believe that putting salvation in the hands of man rather than in God's is dishonoring Him. What do you believe?

 

[DeaconDean]

Assurance of Grace and Salvation
Bob Burridge - Subjective Soterioloty (Lesson 10)

Thoughts on the Assurance
Augustus Toplady

Calvin's Doctrine of the Assurance of Faith
David B. McWilliams

Christian Assurance: A Balanced Trust
Kevin Hartley

Assurance & Humility
A.A. Hodge

Assurance of Grace and Salvation
R.L Dabney

The Assurance of Salvation
Carl Haak

Assurance of Salvation
William J. Baldwin

Personal Assurance That One Is Among The Elect
Loraine Boettner

The Full Assurance of Hope to the End
John Piper - Hebrews 6:9-12

Note on Assurance That God Loves Us
John Piper

Tests of Assurance from 1 John - Part 1
John MacArthur, Jr. - 2 Peter 1:5-11

Tests of Assurance from 1 John - Part 2
John MacArthur, Jr. - 2 Peter 1:5-11

Tests of Assurance from 1 John - Part 3
John MacArthur, Jr. - 2 Peter 1:5-11

The Agonizing Problem of the Assurance of Salvation
John Piper

Does Assurance belong to the Essence of Faith?
Joel R. Beeke

Can I Know that I Am Saved?, or the Doctrine o Assurance
S. Lewis Johnson (mp3)

Assurance of Salvation
RBC Ministries (online Pdf booklet)

The Witness of the Spirit
Michael E. Lodahl - Questions of Clarification for Wesley's Doctrine of Assurance

Justified but Unregenerate?
Scott Kisker - The Relationship of Assurance to Justification and Regeneration in the Thought of John Wesley

Assurance of Salvation: An Examination of Works in a Christian's Faith
Eric Schumacher

Faith & Assurance in the Theology of Theodore Beza
Shane Rosenthal

Peace with God and False Peace: Assurance-Romans 5:1,2
Martyn Lloyd-Jones

Assurance of Grace & Salvation
A.A. Hodge

I Am Not Ashamed of the Gospel - Assurance Through the Gospel of Jesus Christ Alone
Bernie L. Gillespie

Assurance of Grace and Salvation
William Plummer

Assurance of Grace & Salvation
A.A. Hodge

Roman Catholicism: Assurance of Salvation (Part 8)
Robert S. Rayburn

Subjective Soteriology: The study of the application of salvation
Bob Burridge

Calvin's Doctrine of the Assurance of Faith
David B. McWilliams

The Holy Spirit and Assurance - The Scottish Reformation 2006 (MP3)
Iain Murray - Grace Presbyterian Church, PCA

What Is a Biblical Christian? (4 MP3 Lectures)
R. W. Glenn

Perseverance and Assurance (MP3)
Dr. Joel Beeke - CVCRT 2007

The Assurance of Salvation: A Calvinistic Approach to Certainty
David R. Bickel

The Full Assurance of Hope
John Piper - Hebrews 6:9-11

Reflections on Assurance (.pdf)
D.A. Carson

The Foundations of Assurance (MP3)
Joel R. Beeke - CVCRT 2007

The Importance and Lack of Assurance (MP3)
Joel R. Beeke - CVCRT 2007

Our Greatest Confidence (Assurance 1) (MP3)
Joel R. Beeke - Stornoway Free Church of Scotland

Our Greatest Confidence (Assurance 2) (MP3)
Joel R. Beeke - Stornoway Free Church of Scotland

Matthew 13:44-46 - Parables of Atonement and Assurance
Jeffrey A. Gibbs

Hebrews: Assurance of Hope (MP3)
Bill Webster - Grace Bible Church

Biblical Assurance Part 1 (MP3)
Paul Washer - HeartCry Missionary Society

Biblical Assurance Part 2 (MP3)
Paul Washer - HeartCry Missionary Society

Biblical Assurance Part 3 (MP3)
Paul Washer - HeartCry Missionary Society

Biblical Assurance Part 4 (MP3)
Paul Washer - HeartCry Missionary Society

Biblical Assurance Part 5 (MP3)
Paul Washer - HeartCry Missionary Society

1 Timothy 3:8-13 - How to Gain Excellent Standing and Great Assurance
Geoff Thomas

The Reformation's Teaching on Assurance in the Heidelberg (MP3)
Ronald Cammenga - Heidelberg Reformation Association 2008 Bible Conference

Hebrews 5:11-6:12 - The Doctrine of Perseverance: The Earnest Pursuit of Assurance
John Piper

Hebrews 6:9-11 - The Full Assurance of Hope
John Piper

Hebrews 6:9-12 - The Full Assurance of Hope to the End
John Piper

Faith and Assurance (MP3)
Tom Schreiner - Oak Hill Theological College

2 Peter 1:16-18 - Evidence and Assurance of the Truth
Gil Rugh

Can I focus too much on myself for assurance of salvation? (MP3)
John Piper - Ask Pastor John

1 John 2:12-14 - A Word of Assurance
J. Ligon Duncan, III

1 John 5:13-21 - Examination for Assurance
J. Ligon Duncan, III

1 John 5:13 - Helps to Full Assurance
C.H. Spurgeon (pdf)

1 John 5:13 - The Blessing of Full Assurance
C.H. Spurgeon (pdf)

Christian Assurance (MP3)
Eric Alexander - Sermonindex

Biblical Assurance (MP3 Series)
Paul Washer

Amos - God in a Box, or Assurance Versus Complacency: Amos 5:16-27 (ZIP MP3)
S. Lewis Johnson - The SLJ Institute

Assurance of Growth in Grace
Samuel Hayward

Comfort and Assurance: Richard Sibbes (1577-1635) (MP3)

Continued...

 

[DeaconDean]

Mark Dever - The Christian Institute Can I Have Assurance?
R. Scott Clark Assurance (MP3) [/font]
Joel Beeke - Evangelical Movement of Wales How Can You Have Assurance? (MP3)
Paul Washer - Granted Ministries Assurance MP3 Series
Tom Morrison - URC Learning Obedience to Christ Gives Assurance of the Truth of His Doctrines
Archibald Alexander Assurance
J.C. Ryle Why Predestination? How Our Union With Christ Gives Us Assurance - Ephesians 1:3-6 (MP3)
Bryan Chapell - Covenant Seminary Assurance MP3 Series
Reformed Baptist Churches Malaysia Assurance and the Struggle with Sin (MP3)
Phil Johnson - The GraceLife Pulpit Assurance (MP3)
Joel R. Beeke - Evangelical Movement of Wales Tests for Biblical Assurance of Salvation - 1 John MP3 Series
Paul Washer - Grace Community Church Assurance - Heaven on Earth (MP3)
Carl Muller | CCFC 1999 Plenary Assurance (MP3)
Roger Fellows | CCFC 1991 The Holy Spirit and Our Assurance - Romans 8:1-17
Peter Bowley - Grace Church, Bristol, UK Assurance of Salvation in Romans 8
David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas The Holiness of God and Assurance That I Am a Christian (.pdf)
Tom Wells, Reformation & Revival 4:2 (Spring 1995): 63-71. The Federal Vision’s Roman Catholic Doctrine of Assurance
Wes White Assurance and the Man in Romans 7 with guest Dr. Kim Riddlebarger
Lane Chaplin Assurance and Perseverance (.pdf)
Augustus Toplady, J.C. Ryle, C.H. Spurgeon, William Gurnall
The Doctrine of Assurance (.pdf)
A.W. Pink

To equate that a certain doctrine was not taught before a certain time, or because the EFC's didn't teach it is to say that all revelation was stopped in AD 365.

Don't scriptures say that the Holy Spirit will guide us to all truth?

Evidently not, for if there is no evidence of anybody teaching it prior to the ECF's or the Nicene Council, the Holy Spirit must have not taught others after a certain time period.

Perhaps the Church of Christ is correct.

Since we have the canon of scripture (that which is perfect), the Holy Spirit does not guide anybody to all truth anymore.

Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli and others, were evidently not led by the Holy Spirit like the Apostles, and the ECF's.

And it is also funny that the teachings of the ECF's are being propogated as authoritative here in the Baptist area.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

, I, I, I, and I. sure hear alot I's in that, go ahead trust I, as far as me and My House we will trust the Lord God, The great I am, if anyone could had earned they way into heaven then Jesus would not had to die. But He did die, so If His death is not good enough for me. then I will not Fool myself in to thinking there is something I can do, for salvation is the Gift of God, through Jesus Christ, My faith is in God alone, not God and I is My salvation. But rather God is my salvation,

Galatians 2:17-21
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
KJV

This passage from Galatians is irrelevant to this thread and the topic of eternal versus conditional security because this passage from Galatians is speaking of persons who attempt to be justified before God by keeping the Law. The doctrine of conditional security has nothing at all to do with attempting to be justified before God by keeping the Law.

these next scriptures are about some people that thought they could get in by their own merits, see how they believed they should be allowed in for what they had done, we have done this and done this, now these weren't saved and walked away, for Jesus clearly said "I NEVER KNEW YOU" why, for they had served Him, done mighty works in His Name, So why did Jesus saith He never knew them, because they trusted what they did for their Salvation and Not what he had done.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV


so if I trust in God to save me, then I will trust in God to keep me saved.

I am very surprised to see this verse interpreted to support the doctrine of eternal security because it is used by Roman Catholics as a proof text that the doing of works are essential for our ultimate salvation. Perhaps you are unaware that the Greek word translated in v. 21 as “doeth” is a present participle indicating not something done and completed in the past, but continuous, ongoing action. Therefore, this verse is saying that the person who shall enter into the kingdom of heaven is the person who is continuously doing the will of the Father. This passage says nothing at all about those Christians who cease to do the will of the Father, but other passages in the Bible (as quoted in posts above) do.

We are saved (from our life of sin and the consequences of that life) by grace through faith (in Christ and his atoning death on the cross), and given a new life; that is, we are born again through our faith. That new life includes our willful, faithful obedience to Christ. Those people who have been washed clean of their sins in the blood of Jesus and given this new life but subsequently return to wallowing in the mire of sin and degradation surrender their new life for their old one.

Some people attempt to get into heaven without first coming to the cross of Christ, dying to their sins, and being born again. These people may do all sorts of good works, but they are still clothed with the guilt of their sins rather than the righteousness of Christ and, therefore, Christ never knew them. These are the people of whom Jesus was speaking. The Early Church Fathers whom it please God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Cannon and who believed in and taught the doctrine of conditional security made no attempt whatsoever to get into heaven without first coming to the cross of Christ, dying to their sin, and being born again; and to imply that they did so is a sin.

Jude 24-25

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
KJV

Jude 24-25 is a doxology. Doxologies are not composed of a series of objective theological statements that tell us the whole story, but only a small part of the story—a story that tells us what God has done and can do for us, but does not tell us what we must do—that is, continue in our faith, or as Jesus put it, “abide” in Him.


Interpreting passages of Scripture in the absence of the context in which they are found and ignoring the genre of literature to which they belong can produce results that are catastrophically incorrect.

 

[DD2008]

Eternal Security is simply this: If you really believe in Christ it is because you were predestined to salvation. You couldn't believe unless you were regenerated by the work of God because you are naturally dead in your sins. Since if you believe, that means you are already regenerated that means that you were effectually called and saved by the power of God. Since it is God who predestined you to salvation nothing can take that gift away from you.

There are two kinds of people in the visible church, saved and unsaved. All of those passages that speak of falling away are examples of people in the visible church who are not saved. So you see a lot of baptized people falling away from the level of grace they have been given. Those who are predestined to salvation, however, can never fall away because that would thwart the plans of God and that isn't possible.

So, if you really have faith in Christ, you've been saved by the power of God. He has chosen you to be alive with him forever.

 

[His_disciple3]

So, would it be fair to say that your position is that the seed on the thorns and the seed on the rocky ground represents people who were never really saved? If so, I don't think that to be an unreasonable position, even though I don't completely agree with it. The reason I ask is that there are different versions of OSAS. The version that I have a real problem with is the "say this prayer, and as long as you really mean it, then you are saved." My disagreement with the version of OSAS that I think you are talking about, the "if you fall away, then that is evidence that you were never saved to begin with", is more academic than anything. For the purposes of this thread, this is not the position that I am arguing against, and I am not really interested in arguing against that position, because I accept that it is a viable position.

for those that believe you can fall away:

if you are saved then you can't fall away or jump yourself out of His hands:

Jude 24-25
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
KJV

He is able to keep you from falling, you believe that He is able to save you but He is not able to keep you, then you will fall away because you never really had faith in Him to save you. for you have been taught that it is up to you to keep yourself saved, this is another gospel:

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
KJV

But now to preach that one can call upon the Name of the Lord, and continue in their old lifestyle is also another gospel, old things pass away, all things become new. however that passing from the old to the new is a maturity, as new born babes on milk, and as in real life in the spiritual side some mature faster than others, some fruits trees bear fruit faster than others. the first time you see a little baby steal candy do you throw them in jail or cast them our of your home and forbid them never to come back because they stole from you?? NO !!! you teach it that this is wrong to steal. so where is the corrections/discipleship in the churches, or what is the first thing taught in most discipleship classes? TITHE, give me your pocketbook this is the first thing you must do now that you are a Christian!! ok if we love God we will give with a cheerful heart. but giving is something learned, we are choking the babes, by telling them if the Love God they will give to the church, instead of telling them to love God with all their heart to die to self and walk in the spirit. we have made it a financial gospel/a gospel that can be bought. now if you give meat to a babe and it chokes and dies or even chokes enough to cause brain damage(that it don't know what to do the rest of it's life), who is responsible, for this mishap, you that gave it , or the Babe that eat it???

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
KJV

NEVER PERISH. No man is able to pluck them out, no man includes yourself. however if we are His we will follow!!!

 

[His_disciple3]

Eternal Security is simply this: If you really believe in Christ it is because you were predestined to salvation. You couldn't believe unless you were regenerated by the work of God because you are naturally dead in your sins. Since if you believe that means you are already regenerated that means that you were effectually called and saved by the power of God. Since it is God who predestined you to salvation nothing can take that gift away from you.

There are two kinds of people in the visible church, saved and unsaved. All of those passages that speak of falling away are examples of people in the visible church who are not saved. So you see a lot of baptized people falling away from the level of grace they have been given. Those who are predestined to salvation, however, can never fall away because that would thwart the plans of God and that isn't possible.

So, if you really have faith in Christ, you've been saved by the power of God. He has chosen you to be alive with him forever.

but who are predestined :

Matthew 18:13
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
KJV

Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
KJV

so the predestined would be those: By His foreknowledge of those that has used that measure of faith. unless we want to think of ourself more highly to think that we were called out and some weren't. but then that would go against Romans 12 :3 now wouldn't it??

1 Peter 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
KJV

 

[DD2008]

but who are predestined :

Matthew 18:13
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
KJV

Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
KJV

so the predestined would be those: By His foreknowledge of those that has used that measure of faith. unless we want to think of ourself more highly to think that we were called out and some weren't. but then that would go against Romans 12 :3 now wouldn't it??

1 Peter 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
KJV

It doesn't say God forknew you would do something to merit salvation. It just says forknowledge. It simply means God knew beforehand who HE wanted to spend eternity with so he predestined them to salvation. We are created to please God.

 

[His_disciple3]

This passage from Galatians is irrelevant to this thread and the topic of eternal versus conditional security because this passage from Galatians is speaking of persons who attempt to be justified before God by keeping the Law. The doctrine of conditional security has nothing at all to do with attempting to be justified before God by keeping the Law.

I am very surprised to see this verse interpreted to support the doctrine of eternal security because it is used by Roman Catholics as a proof text that the doing of works are essential for our ultimate salvation. Perhaps you are unaware that the Greek word translated in v. 21 as “doeth” is a present participle indicating not something done and completed in the past, but continuous, ongoing action. Therefore, this verse is saying that the person who shall enter into the kingdom of heaven is the person who is continuously doing the will of the Father.

If I continue to believe that God has saved me then I am doing and am continueing to do the will of God, it is His will that NONE of these little ones perish( That includes me) . Sir to believe that one can save themselves or even keep themselves saved by their works, goes against the Bible itself, All have come short, none will prevail without the Shed Blood, and the shed blood was provided by the Grace Of God, not by your merits before of after the blood was applied.
John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV





This passage says nothing at all about those Christians who cease to do the will of the Father, but other passages in the Bible (as quoted in posts above) do.

We are saved (from our life of sin and the consequences of that life) by grace through faith (in Christ and his atoning death on the cross), and given a new life; that is, we are born again through our faith. That new life includes our willful, faithful obedience to Christ. Those people who have been washed clean of their sins in the blood of Jesus and given this new life but subsequently return to wallowing in the mire of sin and degradation surrender their new life for their old one.

Some people attempt to get into heaven without first coming to the cross of Christ, dying to their sins, and being born again. These people may do all sorts of good works, but they are still clothed with the guilt of their sins rather than the righteousness of Christ and, therefore, Christ never knew them. These are the people of whom Jesus was speaking. The Early Church Fathers whom it please God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Cannon and who believed in and taught the doctrine of conditional security made no attempt whatsoever to get into heaven without first coming to the cross of Christ, dying to their sin, and being born again; and to imply that they did so is a sin.



so Why would paul/saul try and serve God if this is what was taught in the scriptures Because it was Paul Himself that recorded whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved ( Romans 10). this was taught by the prophet joel in his second chapter after God pours out His Spirit on all flesh that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, and Peter confirmed this prophecy of Joel in acts 2. however it was paul himself that said he did what he wasn't suppose to do, and what He should do he did not.
But yet still considered Himself to be saved, Wow! I guess what you see as scriptures only applied to you and not Paul, for Paul didn't see it the same as you. he was disobedient in areas but was still saved. For Paul later said that he would even become accursed himself if possible, that his kinsman would be saved.


Jude 24-25 is a doxology. Doxologies are not composed of a series of objective theological statements that tell us the whole story, but only a small part of the story—a story that tells us what God has done and can do for us, but does not tell us what we must do—that is, continue in our faith, or as Jesus put it, “abide” in Him.
than this is not a DOXOLOGIES as you say for it does say the whole story:

Jude 20-21
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
KJV

I didn't post this earlier not to deceive, but the point of that post was that one can not fall away. What can keep us from His Love: accept Our faith, without faith it is impoosible to please Him, We love Him for He first loved us, so the only way that we can fall from His love is to lose faith that He loves us.

Romans 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
KJV
so take note Please, Here is what happens I Lose a Child to death, I put all my faith In God that My child would get better and not die , but She dies, so I lose my faith to the point That God just lets me walk away, right into the pits of hell. No way, no how Brother it ain't going to happen, God has promised if we believe on Him, we will never perish. so here is the truth. same story My child dies , I am mad, hurt and destroyed, all my faith was riding on God healing my child. so I am right on the edge of walking away from God right into the pits of hell, But His mercy endures forever, so God takes me out or allows something to take me out before I can walk away, so He allows my body to be destroyed, that my soul might be saved. that's just the kind of Loving Father He is , I was mad I didn't deserve His mercy, not now not ever. But He just pours it and continues to pour it out for me, Little ole me. and He will do the same for you, if only you would believe .

1 Corinthians 5:5
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV


Interpreting passages of Scripture in the absence of the context in which they are found and ignoring the genre of literature to which they belong can produce results that are catastrophically incorrect.

what is catastrophically incorrect, is believing that what Christ did on the way to the cross and what He did on the Cross, is not good enough for our Salvation/Everlasting Life. My salvation is of the Lord!!!!!! not anything I have done or can do least I boast!!!!!!!

 

[DD2008]

what is catastrophically incorrect, is believing that what Christ did on the way to the cross and what He did on the Cross, is not good enough for our Salvation/Everlasting Life. My salvation is of the Lord!!!!!! not anything I have done or can do least I boast!!!!!!!

Correct. Faith in Christ and assurance of salvation go hand in hand. We trust Christ to save us not us to save ourselves. So if we really believe Christ then we really believe we are saved by him because he said we are saved if we have faith in him. Faith in Christ is a gift that is given in various measures to God's elect.