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Eternal Security

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
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..never...? There's not a particular course happening that will remain that the fervent prayers of a righteous man cannot alter, in effect pleading for God to move in a direction that wasn't going to happen before, in turn changing God's "mind"? This is called fatalism I think...

Nah, God answers prayer at His pleasure and will. He has answered plenty of my prayers. However, God is not contingent on anything or anyone otherwise He could not be perfect because He would lack knowledge. Thy will (God's) be done not mans. :)
 
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MrJim

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Nah, God answers prayer at His pleasure and will. He has answered plenty of my prayers. However, God is not contingent on anything or anyone otherwise He could not be perfect because He would lack knowledge. Thy will (God's) be done not mans. :)

We have not because we ask not~~if we ask not we don't receive but if we ask then God can give...He changes His mind and rewards our asking. Hard to understand how people think this somehow diminishes His divinity:doh:
 
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faceofbear

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We have not because we ask not~~if we ask not we don't receive but if we ask then God can give...He changes His mind and rewards our asking. Hard to understand how people think this somehow diminishes His divinity:doh:

You said the word "reward." Uh, oh. Be prepared to get flamed for legalism, even though the writer of Revelation and Hebrews used the same word in a similar context. Some here *cough* monergist *cough* ;) would lead us to believe that God doesn't reward anyone. Because rewards are contrary to grace, apparently.

Just playin', sort of. There's always some truth in sarcasm and joking.
 
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Hentenza

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We have not because we ask not~~if we ask not we don't receive but if we ask then God can give...He changes His mind and rewards our asking. Hard to understand how people think this somehow diminishes His divinity:doh:

If you think that God changes or can change His mind then are you ready to take it to its logical conclusion and say that God can change His mind about the cross?
 
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DeaconDean

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Lets listen to the words of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

"And he said, A certain man had two sons: And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf. And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." Luke 15:11-32 (KJV)

Ask yourself this: When at any time during the time the prodigal son was out living a "riotous living" did he cease to be the son of his father?

When you are "born-again" are you not born into God's family?

Are you not a son?

When you were born into your family, when you were out sinning, when did you cease to be a part of your family?

My grandfather told my mother this when she was growing up:

You were born a Sanders, you'll always be a Sanders. No matter what you do, I'll always love you and you'll always be a part of this family. The same applies to the parable of the prodigal son.

Nuff said.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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faceofbear

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If you think that God changes or can change His mind then are you ready to take it to its logical conclusion and say that God can change His mind about the cross?

God can't change His mind about what has been done. 1) It defies His nature. 2) It's impossible for Him to lie. 3) Because it's impossible to lie, those who trust Him cannot be put to shame -- changing His mind about the cross would imply that God lied about that. 4) Saying God can't change His mind is limiting His sovereignty. 5) The Bible says the prayer of someone righteous can accomplish much, so either that is A) Because the prayer can influence God or B) Because God decreed to answer that prayer according to His foreknowledge or C) God doesn't give a rip about the prayer of a righteous person and is a dictator who works against human will which though He is sovereign, is contrary to the whole message of the Bible of a theistic God who is very personal with human beings and is willing to sacrifice His Son for them to reveal His mercy and cares deeply about human wants and needs -- even that of the wicked. 6) God can potentially change His mind, but has most likely "changed His mind" when He decreed what to decree based on a foreknowledge, which is entirely biblical.

Rather of stating that God can change His mind about the cross, He can change about the mind of the one who stops trusting. Because though we are saved by grace, it is through faith. Much like a person must be a recipient of a gift -- faith holds the gift. If one stops trusting it is essentially giving the gift back. This does not make man his savior, but Christ His Savior whom He must continually trust. Because it is the one who believes that is saved, not the one who believed.

And before anyone accuses me of teaching the sovereignty of man and a manology, I'm not. Rather, I'm arguing for the sake of the sovereign God's very nature which is love of which Paul writes: [Love] (i.e. God -- who is love) is not self-seeking. Which is blatantly clear through the revelation of Christ.
 
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His_disciple3

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Romans 8:35-39 says absolutely nothing about eternal security. It tells us that God is faithful to us; it does NOT tell us that all Christians remain faithful to God.

We have the testimony of the Scriptures, the Early Church Fathers, and 2,000 years of Church history that prove that men who have been saved, born-again, and sanctified by the blood of Jesus have subsequently fallen away from the faith after years of faithful service, and have returned to their own vomit like a sow returns to wallowing in the mire. If we cannot know if a man is truly a saved Christian until he dies as a faithful Christian, there is no assurance of salvation for anyone. We, as Christians, are saved by grace through faith, but those Christians who fail to continue in that faith become severed from Christ and the life that is only found in Christ.

Colossians 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. (NASB, 1995)

Gal. 5:1. It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (NASB, 1995)

Please also see post #38 in which faceofbear quotes a number of additional passages from the Bible that document the fact that abiding in Christ is necessary for our continued salvation.
Romans 8 has everything to do with
eternal salvation , just because you can't see it, don't make it less so. well only in your eyes . so what can separate us From the Love of God, almost every power is listed here so are you stronger than all these powers listed. can you pull away from the greatest power ever, the Love of God, truth is the one thing that keeps us from receiving eternal life is the rejection of this Love, if you never believe/ faith that God loves you that is what keeps from His Mercy, if you believe once that God has loved you then you are saved, now you may think that He has stop loving you, you may think that you have done some evil thing and that you have walked away from that love, Satan may try to convince you that God no longer loves you. BUT HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER!!!! FOREVERRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! 1 Cor , says that he will turn the flesh over to satan for the destruction of it , that the spirit will be saved, He will not let His Children be destroyed by the enemy, HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER, IF you are saved, you have received His mercy. and His MERCY ENDURES FOREVER, nothing will ever contradict His Mercy
 
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DD2008

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Rather of stating that God can change His mind about the cross, He can change about the mind of the one who stops trusting. Because though we are saved by grace, it is through faith. Much like a person must be a recipient of a gift -- faith holds the gift. If one stops trusting it is essentially giving the gift back. This does not make man his savior, but Christ His Savior whom He must continually trust. Because it is the one who believes that is saved, not the one who believed.

Your assertion just made salvation totally dependent upon man. Your assertion gave God no choice who to save, you left it entirely up to man and left God taking the gift back if his "child" didn't want it. This insults the character of God in his fatherhood. It makes him a bad father who disowns his children and a bad shepherd who loses his sheep. A good father never disowns his children, a good shepherd never loses his sheep. So if God is a good father and a good shepherd those lost could never have been his children or his sheep to begin with. The bible clearly teaches contrary to your assertion in every way.

The Lord doesn't change.
The Lord doesn't lie.
The Lord saves by grace through the conduit of faith that's how the saved know they are saved, they have faith in Jesus that they are saved by his work. That's what saving faith is.
The Lord said no one can snatch the saved from his hand (that includes the saved). Because the Lord knows what's best and will keep us.
The Lord had written that he will bring to completion the good work he began in us.
The Lord inspired the scriptures to be written that clearly and explicitly teach that God's people are predestined to salvation. It is never taught that man becomes un predestined. It is simply taugtht to make your calling and election sure (to yourself and others), it is already sure to God. That just means live your faith outwardly. If you have faith you have assurance period. If not, it's either you don't have faith at all or - Oh ye of little faith...etc.

God is the father of the saved. He will not disown them nor will he take away their faith. If he has given them faith he will preserve them to the end. That is promised in scripture. I certainly would not want to ever be in a position to have to trust myself to keep my salvation. I know I would fail. Salvation must be a work of God from beginning to end or it isn't possible because man can't do it on his own. The scriptures teach it is a work of God. The scriptures put man in his proper place and I am very pleased to be in that place, because I know that God can be trusted and his word will come to pass.

Isaiah 55:10-11 NIV
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
 
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Aibrean

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Teaching that one can lose their salvation can discourage people from getting saved and can also keeps them from trusting the Lord Jesus Christ alone. The people that teach that salvation can be lost, teach that you have to do works along with faith to be saved and to keep yourself saved. This thinking can lead people to hell.

I am not here to debate - only to clarify.

We do not believe in OSAS, but Lutherans do not believe in works-based salvation. Works (living a godly life) can ONLY be done with the Holy Spirit and is a result of faith - not a requirement of it. The only thing that you can do to lose salvation is to reject Christ.

LCMS.org said:
Saving faith is not contingent upon the amount of works one does, but is a gift of the Holy Spirit through the Gospel. Trust in Jesus above all for forgiveness and life eternal.

We believe the only one who can save is Christ. Not us, or other people. Christ leads us to himself through the Holy Spirit by hearing the gospel. We receive faith - our power to believe comes from Christ. We can reject it - that is what prevents us from being saved. Once again, I'm not here to debate...only to clarify. I am not here to promote my view or argue against OSAS. I am just here to clarify that not everyone who doesn't believe in OSAS fits into that quote. I don't like blanket assumptions.
 
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JCFantasy23

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MOD HAT ON

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There have been a few posts violating the rules and going over the line. Staff has issued a thread clean-up. Remember the following rules when posting:

Flaming
You will not insult, belittle, mock, use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members, or personally attack other members or groups of members. Do not goad another member or start call-out threads. Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian. Avoid using sarcasm to attempt any of the above.


If you are flamed, do not respond in-kind. Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button.

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faceofbear

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Your assertion just made salvation totally dependent upon man. Your assertion gave God no choice who to save, you left it entirely up to man and left God taking the gift back if his "child" didn't want it. This insults the character of God in his fatherhood. It makes him a bad father who disowns his children and a bad shepherd who loses his sheep. A good father never disowns his children, a good shepherd never loses his sheep. So if God is a good father and a good shepherd those lost could never have been his children or his sheep to begin with. The bible clearly teaches contrary to your assertion in every way.

The Lord doesn't change.
The Lord doesn't lie.
The Lord saves by grace through the conduit of faith that's how the saved know they are saved, they have faith in Jesus that they are saved by his work. That's what saving faith is.
The Lord said no one can snatch the saved from his hand (that includes the saved). Because the Lord knows what's best and will keep us.
The Lord had written that he will bring to completion the good work he began in us.
The Lord inspired the scriptures to be written that clearly and explicitly teach that God's people are predestined to salvation. It is never taught that man becomes un predestined. It is simply taugtht to make your calling and election sure (to yourself and others), it is already sure to God. That just means live your faith outwardly. If you have faith you have assurance period. If not, it's either you don't have faith at all or - Oh ye of little faith...etc.

God is the father of the saved. He will not disown them nor will he take away their faith. If he has given them faith he will preserve them to the end. That is promised in scripture. I certainly would not want to ever be in a position to have to trust myself to keep my salvation. I know I would fail. Salvation must be a work of God from beginning to end or it isn't possible because man can't do it on his own. The scriptures teach it is a work of God. The scriptures put man in his proper place and I am very pleased to be in that place, because I know that God can be trusted and his word will come to pass.

Isaiah 55:10-11 NIV
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
x

Apparently you don't understand what I said. I give up. Read about synergism before you making weird accusations of which I thoroughly disagree with everything you charged against me -- which is common among many Calvinist because they misrepresent a synergist view and accuse it of pelagianism and works-based, which is solely a misunderstanding of synergism.

However, you're still not understanding who God's sheep are. God's sheep are those who follow Him, if you cease to follow Him, are you His sheep? Not according to scripture, nor according to Christ. Christ Himself taught the necessity for the sheep to continue to abide in Him or He would not remain in them nor would they remain in Him. And Paul who also taught that men could fall from grace and be cut off from Christ. And the same with John. Oh, and the majority of the Old Testament, which as you've said, God doesn't change. That's not placing salvation in the hands of man. Salvation is solely by grace. Ironically, Calvin taught the same thing I am teaching, just that those who abide in Christ can never not abide. So, if you wish to accuse me of a man salvation, understand Calvin taught the same thing, just that those who once abide in Christ, continue to abide in Christ and never do not abide in Christ, hence perseverance. But I side with Christ who stated that we need to abide in Him and that we have the ability to no longer abide. The only difference is you believe they who backslide were never saved and believe that God gives them a false salvific understanding, which is completely contrary to the Biblical Gods nature who does everything in order to bring all men unto Himself by grace in order that they might be saved.

Do I believe God is sovereign? Yes, but I interpret His sovereignty based upon His love because His very nature is love. But a Calvinist interprets it the opposite way by suggesting God offers grace only to the elect and denies His prevenient grace provided to all men so that all can be saved if they place their faith in Christ. But that God forces people to believe in Him and forces people to be saved by warping their wills and destining others to Hell by indirectly decreeing them to sin and decreeing them not to place their faith in Christ because the death of Christ only helps those God forces to believe in Him. If you disagree with that assessment, you're not a Calvinist. And I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like the God revealed in scripture to me. So, if you want to say I believe contrary to the nature of God, perhaps you should understand what you're teaching about God first of all of which is 100% contrary to the definition Paul gives of love. If God is that way, so be it, He is God. But the God I worship, the God of the Bible, is a God of goodness and love to all men. Not just those He forces to believe on Him.

But please, before you go on misrepresenting a synergistic view, at least read more about it from a non-biased Calvinist view which views everyone but themselves as complete heretics not belonging to the protestant faith.

While we're quoting the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 18
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. 27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

Apparently Israel thought it was unjust of God for a righteous person (one justified by faith in our case) to be counted as unrighteous (a person no longer with faith in our case) and all of their righteousness (their faith -- as Paul would seemingly say) remembered no more.

At any rate, I'm done responding to your replies as well, no offense. I just don't care to debate with people who are completely disregarding scripture against their own doctrines and completely warp the meanings of entire chapters of scripture. I guess we'll find out in Heaven who's right :) But until then, I suppose what matters is that one is sure of their calling and election. This certainly isn't helping salvific issues... anyways God bless.
 
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DD2008

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Apparently you don't understand what I said. I give up. Read about synergism before you making weird accusations of which I thoroughly disagree with everything you charged against me -- which is common among many Calvinist because they misrepresent a synergist view and accuse it of pelagianism and works-based, which is solely a misunderstanding of synergism.

Do you really think I haven't read about synergism. I have. Synergism is a false man made teaching that is not grounded in scripture.

However, you're still not understanding who God's sheep are. God's sheep are those who follow Him, if you cease to follow Him, are you His sheep? Not according to scripture, nor according to Christ. Christ Himself taught the necessity for the sheep to continue to abide in Him or He would not remain in them nor would they remain in Him. That's not placing salvation in the hands of man. Salvation is solely by grace.

God's sheep will follow him. All of those are examples of who the sheep are not people who were once sheep who lost their sheephood.

Ironically, Calvin taught the same thing I am teaching, just that those who abide in Christ can never not abide. So, if you wish to accuse me of a man salvation, understand Calvin taught the same thing, just that those who once abide in Christ, continue to abide in Christ and never do not abide in Christ, hence perseverance. But I side with Christ who stated that we need to abide in Him and that the elect have the ability to no longer abide. The only difference is you believe they were never saved and believe that God gives them a false salvific understanding, which is completely contrary to the Biblical Gods nature.

If a person was elected to salvation by God, was regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit, repented and placed his faith in Christ, he is saved. He may sin from time to time, but God will not let him unelect himself.

Do I believe God is sovereign? Yes, but I interpret His sovereignty based upon His love because His very nature is love. But a Calvinist interprets it the opposite way by suggesting God offers grace only to the elect and denies His prevenient grace provided to all men so that all can be saved if they place their faith in Christ. But that God forces people to believe in Him and forces people to be saved by warping their wills and destining others to Hell by indirectly decreeing them to sin and decreeing them not to place their faith in Christ because the death of Christ only helps those God forces to believe in Him. If you disagree with that assessment, you're not a Calvinist. And I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like the God revealed in scripture to me. So, if you want to say I believe contrary to the nature of God, perhaps you should understand what you're teaching about God first of all of which is 100% contrary to the definition Paul gives of love. If God is that way, so be it, He is God. But the God I worship, the God of the Bible, is a God of goodness and love to all men. Not just those He forces to believe on Him.

God who is love, loves his elect and hates the reprobate. He must hate that which is contrary to love and the reprobate is contrary to love. They are evil. The bible never once says that God loves everyone who ever lived. He does indeed give a well meant offer to all who hear the gospel message, those who accept it are the saved, those who reject it are not. It is a blessing to the elect and a curse to the reprobate.

But please, before you go on misrepresenting a synergistic view, at least read more about it from a non-biased Calvinist view which views everyone but themselves as complete heretics not belonging to the protestant faith.

The synergistic view is false. Salvation is of the Lord not of a decision made by man. If you include yourself as an agent that effects the plans of God you are clearly going against scripture because the scriptures are emphatically clear that salvation is by grace dependent upon the will of God not of man.

Check out this clip, Jesus shall not fail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_0WIEMroww
 
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MrJim

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If you think that God changes or can change His mind then are you ready to take it to its logical conclusion and say that God can change His mind about the cross?

As faceofbear stated it has to do with the individuals~not the plan. The plan doesn't change but if at some point I decide to turn away, in essence repent of being Christian, then my name can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

Salvation is by grace through faith, unless I believe in the calvingod that says each individual is actually a lottery ticket that, if the calvingod scratches off and it's a winner, then that person gets his golden ticket to heaven and if calvingod scratches it and it's a loser then it's the hot place for you sorry 'bout your luck.

See, there is no faith there, just an arbitary roll 'o the dice and maybe your ticket will get punched, and if calvingod is real I'd rather go to hell.
 
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DD2008

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if calvingod is real I'd rather go to hell.

Well, if that's the way you really feel all scriptural evidence says that you'll get your wish. Hell is a place for God haters, and if someone dies hating the sovereign God he will indeed experience hell. Thats the same choice the devil made, if God gets things his way the devil would rather go to hell. That's why he's damned.
 
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MrJim

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Well, if that's the way you really feel all scriptural evidence says that you'll get your wish. Hell is a place for God haters, and if someone dies hating the sovereign God he will indeed experience hell. Thats the same thing choice the devil made, if God gets things his way the devil would rather go to hell. That's why he's damned.

I did the Calvin/Reformed thing for a while~~and I thank GOD that He opened my eyes of it.

...and with that I'll depart from this thread and from the Baptist forum..I really don't belong here...I find that I have more in common with mennonites, weslyans, lutherans, and catholics than I do with calvingod baptists.

farewell...
 
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DD2008

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I did the Calvin/Reformed thing for a while~~and I thank GOD that He opened my eyes of it.

...and with that I'll depart from this thread and from the Baptist forum..I really don't belong here...I find that I have more in common with mennonites, weslyans, lutherans, and catholics than I do with calvingod baptists.

farewell...

Farewell.
 
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Hupomone10

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...God who is love, loves his elect and hates the reprobate. He must hate that which is contrary to love and the reprobate is contrary to love. They are evil. The bible never once says that God loves everyone who ever lived.
Since the reprobates - the evil ones - are God's enemies, how is it that God commands US to love OUR enemies, if He supposedly hates them?

Is the picture of God to the 5-Pointer a "do as I say, not as I do" God?

Of course, the answer to the first question is that God would NEVER command us to do something He was unwilling to do or didn't do Himself. I encourage you to reconsider what you've heard or read if it includes such doctrine as your above comments, brother.

Matt 5:44-48 NASB
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR, and hate your enemy.'

44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, ...

45 in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;...

46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same?

48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

We are to be as the Heavenly Father is, and that is perfect. If He commands us to love our enemies, we can be sure it is because He does the same.

I know you used to be a low to moderate Calvinist, have you converted to 5-Point in the last few months?

Blessings,
H.
 
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DD2008

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Since the reprobates - the evil ones - are God's enemies, how is it that God commands US to love OUR enemies, if He supposedly hates them?

Because we're not God and have no right to judge. That is a major error that most synergists make. They put man on par with God in many ways, when he is above us. God can judge righteously because he knows everything and is sovereign, we can't because we're not.

God is wholly other and has a divine right we do not. At the end God is going to pour out his wrath upon the wicked. That's what hell is, suffering the just wrath of God. It's not his children he's destroying, it's the devil and his children.

Remember what Jesus said:

John 8:42-44 NIV
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Vengeance is a holy thing when done by the sovereign and just God:

Revelation 6:9-11 NIV
9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

Romans 12:19 NIV
19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[a] says the Lord.




I know you used to be a low to moderate Calvinist, have you converted to 5-Point in the last few months?



I am the same. I am a five pointer. I never denied limited atonement. I just understand that the atonement is sufficient for everyone but ony effective for the elect because it is only applied to the elect. So it is limited in application. That makes me a moderate to low calvinist. I believe the death of Christ is a blessing to the elect and a curse to the reprobate.
 
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faceofbear

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Do you really think I haven't read about synergism. I have. Synergism is a false man made teaching that is not grounded in scripture.

I don't mean to sound rude, really, I'm trying to say this in the most gentle tone possible (though there is no "tone" on the net), you're knowledge of synergism is very lacking and Calvinistic biased. You really don't seem to understand synergism at all because the things you've accused me of and assume I am teaching is not what synergism teaches. So, either it's that you didn't understand the theology behind it (a lot of people warp the true teaching of it or don't understand it themselves), or you were reading pelagian theology hidden under the name of synergism. However, none of the things you've accused synergists of is even close to accurate, so whatever it is, I suggest re-learning it with an open mind to another interpretation of scripture. Honestly, I see why some people are Calvinists, and I also see why people are Arminians.

God's sheep will follow him. All of those are examples of who the sheep are not people who were once sheep who lost their sheephood.

I agree with the first part, but disagree with the second part. There are many examples in the Bible of people who fell from their faith. And I think Jesus taught clearly that there are those who are found, then lost.

If a person was elected to salvation by God, was regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit, repented and placed his faith in Christ, he is saved. He may sin from time to time, but God will not let him unelect himself.

I don't believe God will let someone unelect himself, I believe God won't accept those who choose to depart from the faith because if Christians deny Him, He will deny them, and the old testament reveals that those who were counted as righteous will be credited as unrighteous if they return to their filth, which is also consistent in many new testament teachings.

God who is love, loves his elect and hates the reprobate. He must hate that which is contrary to love and the reprobate is contrary to love. They are evil. The bible never once says that God loves everyone who ever lived. He does indeed give a well meant offer to all who hear the gospel message, those who accept it are the saved, those who reject it are not. It is a blessing to the elect and a curse to the reprobate.

Okay. So, what you're saying is that you are not evil? Are you saying that you were not once ungodly? The Bible teaches me that when we were ungodly, Christ died for us. So either God loves a select ungodly people, or He loves the world. I do agree that He is opposed to those who are not saved, that is, those who persistently reject the truth and end up in Hell. But only after God persistently called them and they refused -- whether by a preacher or by conscience. Because He is not willing that any should perish. Simply, I agree with you. But I believe that God loves the world collectively or else we are stating that God is a God of partiality.

The synergistic view is false. Salvation is of the Lord not of a decision made by man. If you include yourself as an agent that effects the plans of God you are clearly going against scripture because the scriptures are emphatically clear that salvation is by grace dependent upon the will of God not of man.

Okay, this is where I speak of the misunderstanding. The synergist view believe sthat salvation is dependent upon the grace of God but that God has provided grace to all men. That is why He is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe. In other words, Christ's death on the cross provided grace for all men to be capable of being saved, but will only save those who have faith. Christ initiated our salvation by grace on the cross, and it will be completed by grace. When Christ died on the cross He drew all men unto Himself -- not just some.

Now, before you say, "That's works based." It's not. Let me give you a biblical example and show you what you are essentially saying. When Peter was walking on water, did Peter walk on water by himself? Or was it Christ who enabled him to walk on water? But how was Peter capable to walk on water? By trusting Christ. Peter couldn't claim, "I walked on water all by myself, I did it all by myself, look at me, I'm so amazing," because Peter didn't walk on water by himself. Christ enabled him to walk on water THROUGH faith. But what happened when Peter turned from Christ? He started drowning. Then Peter cried out to Christ and Christ saved Him, again. Did Peter save himself for crying out to Christ? No. Christ saved Him through his crying out. But when Peter trusted himself, he began to perish. Which, coincidentally, sounds very similar to what Paul said about the Galatians who were trying to trust themselves for salvation, that they had been severed from Christ (which happened to Peter -- He was trusting Christ, stopped and was severed, then cried out and Christ saved Peter again).

Do you see what you are doing? You are making an assumption that the synergistic view says we are saved by faith. But the synergistic view doesn't say that. It says we are saved by grace through faith. Let me give another analogy.

If I jump out of an airplane with a parachute and pull the parachute and land safely. Did I save myself for pulling the parachute? Or was I saved by the parachute? I didn't save myself. I was saved by the parachute through pulling the whatever you pull (lol -- gotta love my ignorance) to eject the parachute. In other words, by grace (the parachute) through faith (the whatever you pull).

Now, again, consider if someone gave me 100 dollar bills. Can I brag that I got myself the 100 dollar bill for accepting it? No. Someone gave me it, but I must accept it. I was given a dollar bill (grace) and I received it (through faith). But if I give the dollar bill back (remove my faith) then I know longer have 100 dollars (grace).

Man isn't their savior. Christ is. We aren't saved by faith. We're saved by grace... but through faith. If we no longer channel faith, how can we have grace? It's like asking how can we hold water (grace) without a cup (faith). When Paul speaks of shipwrecking their faith, people no longer have the cup to hold the water.

However, I don't believe you're a Calvinist either. I believe you just believe in OSAS because you keep emphasizing the necessity of repentance and faith. But a Calvinist believes that when Christ died He redeemed only His elect and faith and repentance are not necessities to receive grace. That is, they believe you are regenerated BEFORE you even have faith, but that faith is only evidence of your redemption. IN other words, faith isn't necessary... it's only a fruit.

I believe in reality, we believe the same thing, but the semantics are different. Except you just believe that those who fall away were never saved. I really don't think it matters what comes first the chicken or the egg. I think it just matters that one doesn't fall away, whatever the case.

God bless you brother.
 
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