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1 John 1:8-10, Galatians 5:17, Romans 7:14-25.
In 1 John 1:8-10, it is evident that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. This is speaking of indwelling sin. It is clear from other passages (1 John 3:5-9, 1 John 5:18, Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv)) that the practice of sin is dealt with when we repent and give our hearts to Christ.
Galatians 5:17 is not only to be compared to Romans 7:14-25, it can also be compared to 1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I'm sure that even the quoting of this verse will evoke in you the response of telling me what it REALLY means. But the point is that we may want to sin, but as born again believers we cannot according to Galatians 5:17, which says, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Therefore if someone has received the second benefit (mentioned in 2 Corinthians 1:15 and identified in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, and 1 John 3:9), we may want to sin but we are restrained from doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit--and the fear of the LORD in our hearts.
As for Romans 7:14-25, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION. He identifies himself as being "carnal, sold under sin" (which he is not, and I will tell you why I believe this in a moment), in order to show what is the attitude of someone who is carnal. He also shows in this passage that the carnal believer is trusting in the law to save him and because of it will never measure up to the law. Once a man is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, he moves on to Romans 8--the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets him free from the law of sin and death, spoken of in Romans 7:14-25. Now I believe that Paul can not be truly carnal because he is here writing inspired scripture; and to say that he is carnal would be to say that a carnally-minded person can pen something that is completely inspired of God to the extent that it is called holy scripture. So I can go and touch and then write holy scripture in the next moment. It doesn't fly, now, does it? And also holy scripture can be ongoing because anybody can write it and therefore anything anyone writes can be called holy scripture.
Paul was being all things to all men: to the weak he became as weak, that he by all means might save some. 1 Corinthians 9:22.
Now 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 says, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
And Hebrews 10:14 in the kjv says this: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
And therefore He has perfected for ever them that have been sanctified wholly. Now I see you have used a translation other than the kjv. And since the kjv came before whatever translation you are using, I contend that if you ever began with the kjv, you have done what it says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 in moving to another translation. And if you began with the translation you are using, you have simply fallen prey to what happened because there was a demand for the watering down of scripture, which was met by the translators of certain Bible translations when they translated them.
Even in the watered-down translations, it is clear from Hebrews 10:10 that the people in perspective have been sanctified. Why then do the translators depart from what has been spoken by saying that those who previously were mentioned as already sanctified, now suddenly they are merely being sanctified?
And it is true that we are all being sanctified, although we have been sanctified wholly; because the blood of Jesus Christ continually cleanseth us from all sin (for in 1 John 1:7, the Greek word for cleanseth is in the verb tense that means continual action). The moment sin comes in from the outside into the believer, it is immediately cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. This indicates entire sanctification.
And I would also contend that sanctification is not impractical. You cannot be sanctified and not have it have an effect on your behaviour. So if every believer is sanctified the moment he believes, that would indicate to me that he is made holy upon believing and that his practical behaviour will immediately change. So there is no behaving carnally if you are a true Christian believer. The one who behaves carnally is not entirely sanctified, is what I am saying; and therefore according to your statements not a believer.
And the fact that the believer is already dead to sin (and therefore set free from sin -- Romans 6:7) must also be practical. If it is not then Paul the apostle is using empty, meaningless words.
Also, on another note, verses 26 and 27 are not the only verses in Romans 11. I asked you to read with an open mind what it it says in Romans 11:16-24. it is quite clear from this passage that the Gentiles are graffed into the olive tree Israel. Therefore Gentiles can partake of promises to Israel, they can obtain them by faith (Hebrews 11:33, 2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Corinthians 1:20).
@aiki wrote:
You never heard of an analogy or a parable? Or are you just being facetious here?
On another note, I have shown how the motivation of fear is indeed biblical in a previous post in this thread. I will post it momentarily.
Finally, concerning your first statement. That you consider me to have come to a faulty conclusion does not make my conclusion faulty. The burden of proof is on you. You are merely giving an opinion until you can show from scripture that Matthew 7:23 ought not to be applied to John 10:27-28. You would have to show clearly that Jesus gives eternal life to those who work iniquity. I don't think that is possible, because Matthew 13:41-42 says clearly that those who do iniquity will be cast into the furnace of fire; and the scripture is not going to contradict itself.
In 1 John 1:8-10, it is evident that if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. This is speaking of indwelling sin. It is clear from other passages (1 John 3:5-9, 1 John 5:18, Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv)) that the practice of sin is dealt with when we repent and give our hearts to Christ.
Galatians 5:17 is not only to be compared to Romans 7:14-25, it can also be compared to 1 John 3:9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I'm sure that even the quoting of this verse will evoke in you the response of telling me what it REALLY means. But the point is that we may want to sin, but as born again believers we cannot according to Galatians 5:17, which says, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Therefore if someone has received the second benefit (mentioned in 2 Corinthians 1:15 and identified in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, and 1 John 3:9), we may want to sin but we are restrained from doing so by the power of the Holy Spirit--and the fear of the LORD in our hearts.
As for Romans 7:14-25, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION. He identifies himself as being "carnal, sold under sin" (which he is not, and I will tell you why I believe this in a moment), in order to show what is the attitude of someone who is carnal. He also shows in this passage that the carnal believer is trusting in the law to save him and because of it will never measure up to the law. Once a man is saved by faith in Jesus Christ, he moves on to Romans 8--the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets him free from the law of sin and death, spoken of in Romans 7:14-25. Now I believe that Paul can not be truly carnal because he is here writing inspired scripture; and to say that he is carnal would be to say that a carnally-minded person can pen something that is completely inspired of God to the extent that it is called holy scripture. So I can go and touch and then write holy scripture in the next moment. It doesn't fly, now, does it? And also holy scripture can be ongoing because anybody can write it and therefore anything anyone writes can be called holy scripture.
Paul was being all things to all men: to the weak he became as weak, that he by all means might save some. 1 Corinthians 9:22.
Now 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 says, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
And Hebrews 10:14 in the kjv says this: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
And therefore He has perfected for ever them that have been sanctified wholly. Now I see you have used a translation other than the kjv. And since the kjv came before whatever translation you are using, I contend that if you ever began with the kjv, you have done what it says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 in moving to another translation. And if you began with the translation you are using, you have simply fallen prey to what happened because there was a demand for the watering down of scripture, which was met by the translators of certain Bible translations when they translated them.
Even in the watered-down translations, it is clear from Hebrews 10:10 that the people in perspective have been sanctified. Why then do the translators depart from what has been spoken by saying that those who previously were mentioned as already sanctified, now suddenly they are merely being sanctified?
And it is true that we are all being sanctified, although we have been sanctified wholly; because the blood of Jesus Christ continually cleanseth us from all sin (for in 1 John 1:7, the Greek word for cleanseth is in the verb tense that means continual action). The moment sin comes in from the outside into the believer, it is immediately cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. This indicates entire sanctification.
And I would also contend that sanctification is not impractical. You cannot be sanctified and not have it have an effect on your behaviour. So if every believer is sanctified the moment he believes, that would indicate to me that he is made holy upon believing and that his practical behaviour will immediately change. So there is no behaving carnally if you are a true Christian believer. The one who behaves carnally is not entirely sanctified, is what I am saying; and therefore according to your statements not a believer.
And the fact that the believer is already dead to sin (and therefore set free from sin -- Romans 6:7) must also be practical. If it is not then Paul the apostle is using empty, meaningless words.
Also, on another note, verses 26 and 27 are not the only verses in Romans 11. I asked you to read with an open mind what it it says in Romans 11:16-24. it is quite clear from this passage that the Gentiles are graffed into the olive tree Israel. Therefore Gentiles can partake of promises to Israel, they can obtain them by faith (Hebrews 11:33, 2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Corinthians 1:20).
@aiki wrote:
We are, quite obviously, neither butter nor clay.
You never heard of an analogy or a parable? Or are you just being facetious here?
On another note, I have shown how the motivation of fear is indeed biblical in a previous post in this thread. I will post it momentarily.
Finally, concerning your first statement. That you consider me to have come to a faulty conclusion does not make my conclusion faulty. The burden of proof is on you. You are merely giving an opinion until you can show from scripture that Matthew 7:23 ought not to be applied to John 10:27-28. You would have to show clearly that Jesus gives eternal life to those who work iniquity. I don't think that is possible, because Matthew 13:41-42 says clearly that those who do iniquity will be cast into the furnace of fire; and the scripture is not going to contradict itself.
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