Eternal Security based on a holy walk and the fear of falling away.

justbyfaith

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By review, he said:
Now let me get you a little deeper into verse 5. It says: "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts." Now listen very carefully. That is not talking about our love for God. That is talking about God's love for us. How do you know that? Because the rest of the passage makes a point of that, verse 8: "God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." It's talking about God's love for us. And so the truth is that God's love for us has been deposited in our hearts by the presence of the Holy Spirit. What are we saying, practically? That the Holy Spirit gives the believer the sense that God loves Him. That's a... That's a subjective thing.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes. His love in our hearts.
I think Ezekiel 36 may clear up a few things:

Ezekiel 36: NASB
25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

The "I will" above is YHWH speaking. He is speaking of the New Covenant. Even the heart is new and from YHWH.
 
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redleghunter

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God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8), in no way defines the love of God spoken of in Romans 5:5 as not being in our hearts.
Edit: Who is claiming this. JM clearly quotes the verse as saying "and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5b)

No one claimed that the love of God was not poured out within our hearts.
 
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redleghunter

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So you are saying that he teaches that the love of God that is shed abroad in our hearts is God's love that we love God (and others) with so that He fulfills the righteousness of the law within us when we walk according to the love of the Spirit (Romans 8:4) because His love is shed abroad in our hearts through the Spirit...

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)
 
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justbyfaith

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It does. As even before we were saved Christ died for us.

If the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts, it is because we are saved. So it doesn't. God loved us before He shed abroad His love in our hearts, but when He shed it abroad in our hearts, it is now in our hearts.
 
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justbyfaith

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I think Ezekiel 36 may clear up a few things:

Ezekiel 36: NASB
25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

The "I will" above is YHWH speaking. He is speaking of the New Covenant. Even the heart is new and from YHWH.
No argument there. Was there a point you wanted to make from that?
 
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redleghunter

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If the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts, it is because we are saved. So it doesn't. God loved us before He shed abroad His love in our hearts, but when He shed it abroad in our hearts, it is now in our hearts.
See edit above. You post made it sound as if someone was denying the love of God was not in our hearts when we are saved.
 
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justbyfaith

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“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)
Again, no argument from me. Point?
 
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redleghunter

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I think fear here is more reverence and taking Him seriously not this paralyzing fear constantly of God and sinning. You know a healthy fear not an irrational one.
Jesus Christ as Son of God is our Mediator with the Father. Notice below how frightened the disciples were when the Father spoke the words about Christ:

Matthew 17: NASB
1Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” 6When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” 8And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.​

Notice when they were frightened it was Jesus Who touched them and said 'do not be afraid.' Oh the wonders of His Love. It is only through Christ Jesus that we can come to the Throne of Grace.
 
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justbyfaith

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See edit above. You post made it sound as if someone was denying the love of God was not in our hearts when we are saved.
I think you said that wrong. I deny that the love of God is not in our hearts because we are saved. It is in our hearts because we are saved, is what I am saying.
 
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justbyfaith

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It should be fairly easy to understand, it is probably first grade level.

How do I know that the Lord knows me? Is it not by the fact that I am not a worker of iniquity? because Jesus never knew those who work iniquity. So if He knows me, how can I be a worker of iniquity? And if I be a worker of iniquity, how can Jesus know me? And how can I then be one of Jesus' sheep, if Jesus does not know me, because I am a worker of iniquity? And how then can I bank my salvation on John 10:28, which is a promise given only to Jesus' sheep?

If I am one of Jesus' sheep, I am not a worker of iniquity, and the promise of John 10:28, that I have eternal life, and shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch me out of Jesus' hand, applies to me.
 
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justbyfaith

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You have made statements in which I responded to (see below) where you made claims which were either confusing or erroneously determined:

Post #17 you call it 'our love' and I pointed out we are light bearers and not the light. It is not our love but God's love.
Yes, but I qualified my statement by saying that it is in that there is a practical working out of God's love within us so that we behave according to the love of God that has been shed abroad in our hearts. In fact, I said that it is God's love. But He gives it to us, so it becomes ours, in that we love God and neighbor practically because of it.
You are going by the letter of what I am saying and not the spirit of it. He seems to claim that the love of God in our hearts doesn't work itself out practically in our conduct; by saying that it is only the understanding that God loves us that is being spoken of in Romans 5:5. How are you not getting this?
I have no contention with that idea. But is the righteousness that God imparts an impractical righteousness? Does it not have an effect on our behaviour?
 
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justbyfaith

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By review, he said:
Now let me get you a little deeper into verse 5. It says: "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts." Now listen very carefully. That is not talking about our love for God. That is talking about God's love for us. How do you know that? Because the rest of the passage makes a point of that, verse 8: "God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." It's talking about God's love for us. And so the truth is that God's love for us has been deposited in our hearts by the presence of the Holy Spirit. What are we saying, practically? That the Holy Spirit gives the believer the sense that God loves Him. That's a... That's a subjective thing.
 
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justbyfaith

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But of course, the point is that John 10:28 does only apply to Jesus' true sheep, whom Jesus does know (John 10:27); so that if someone is a worker of iniquity he is not truly one of Jesus' sheep (because Jesus never knew him and therefore does not know him--Matthew 7:23) and therefore he cannot rightly bank his salvation/eternal security on such verses as John 10:28. And we are not only talking theologically here, but in order to reach those who have a false sense of security based on such verses when they have no real relationship with Christ. For all I know that might be you; although I am not saying that it is you, because that would be against the rules. But I pray that if you aren't saved He will bestow upon you the saving grace of knowing Him. re #49.
 
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com7fy8

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Therefore the promise of eternal security in John 10:28 is for those who don't do or work iniquity.
In Revelation, a number of times, Jesus does say He knows people's works. And in James chapter two, I see how the three examples of desirable works are helping a needy person, Abraham putting God first, and Rahab helping God's servants . . . three examples of works of love, including with personal communication and involvement.

In these scriptures we find that those who have eternal life and shall never perish and cannot be removed from Jesus' hand, are known by Jesus; but of course Jesus never knew them which do or work iniquity.
"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

I understand this means God has joined His children to Himself, with an almighty bond. And this changes our character so we no longer have the nature to totally refuse God. And Isaiah 55:11 guarantees that God's word will do all which God Himself means by His word . . . in us.

1 John 2:17, which also speaks of eternal security,


what this means is that there will be a radical life change in the heart and life
"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So God's love changes us to become "as He is" "in this world." There is no other effect which God's love can have in our hearts.

But, also, we are guaranteed how our Father succeeds in correcting His children > Hebrews 12:4-11. So, then > we all still need more of this correction bringing His love's perfection, but He is succeeding in His union with us.
 
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justbyfaith

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[Staff edit].

I do NOT preach "a gospel having to do with works either to obtain or keep salvation." But in the OP, I have brought to the forefront certain scriptures and have attempted to perform exegesis on them, inferring nothing into the text but drawing every insight from the text.

I have focused on grace scriptures to the hilt in times past, and they are in my heart to the highest degree. So if now, I am finding scripture that speaks of, for example, the concept that the practicing of iniquity will put a man in the furnace of fire (and I know that the meaning of this scripturally will be lost on some people), does that mean that I am somehow departing from scriptures about the grace of God that have been ingrained into my heart because I have preached them so strongly in times past?

In Hebrews 6 it tells us to move on from the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, and to eat solid food, which is for the mature; who have trained their senses to discern good and evil. I have been on milk for quite a long time; but I am no longer willing to ignore scriptures that used to seem to me to be against the grace of God, because I reason it thus: no scripture can truly teach against the grace of God because God is all about grace: Jesus when He came was full of grace and truth. And He is also the one who was speaking in the verses that I think you are finding issues with, such as Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 13:41-42.

Furthermore, Paul the apostle does not even preach greasy grace ("sloppy agape") in his epistles. In such passages as Galatians 5:16-24, Ephesians 2:1-10, Ephesians 5:3-7, Colossians 3:5-7, Romans 8:9-14, and many more, Paul does indeed preach on the practical righteousness that is given by grace, and the punishment of God's wrath for those who do not live in that righteousness through grace.
 
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justbyfaith

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Isaiah 55:11 "my word will not return void, but will accomplish the purpose for which I sent it." is to be interpreted by Ezekiel 2:7 and Ezekiel 3:27. "whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear."

The word of God will either save a man or it will make him accountable on the day of judgment, so that he has no excuse before God.
 
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