Eternal punishment

[quatona]

Our own goodness or rightness is as wonderful as used toilet paper to God.
Nothing we do is righteous compared to Him.
No hope whatsoever.
Nohing we can do..

So, God Himself demonstrated His love for us by providing a way to become clean again.
That way is Jesus.

Makes me wonder how god loves beings the nature of whom is like used toilet paper to him. Something doesn´t seem to add up here.

 

[Silenus]

This earlier quote seems to encapsulate the argument at hand.

Your illustration was spot on.
The Christian God has many forms depending on the believer. Many contradict themselves out of existence.
For example, eternity in hell and a fair and just God are mutually exclusive

I actually find the concept of hell and God completely internally consistent. I found hell for a long time to be a hard to grasp concept. Until I went to a mosque to inquire of Islamic belief. As I was talking to an imam he relayed the story of how a man who was good all his life and ended his life with one bad deed was sent to hell, while a man who was bad all his life and did one good deed at the end went to heaven. I found the whole story appalling and I told him so and asked him how any Muslim had any sense of security. He started talking about the perfections of Allah. And this question came to me. How can a perfect God be both all-merciful and all-just at the same time? Perfection responds negatively to moral imperfection and reacts justly. Yet, mercy is opposed to justice, for it is the restraint of the punishment of justice deserved. Christianity has the answer Islam didn't. God can be just and merciful and perfect because he receives the punishment for the crime in our stead, and therefore, can extend mercy. However, If God exists, than all sin is rebellion against Him and this sin needs to be paid for. A loving God can not also be unjust. If God did die for transgression, then rejecting him would be a great injustice. Hell seems, under these premises, to be internally consistent. I would think your problem is the premises that these views are based on, i.e. The existence of God and that His existence is discernable by everyone.

 

[Tynan]

No. It's just a limitation of the language we use.

No, it is a limitation of logic.

'Outside of time' is a nonsense.

 

[Tynan]

The existence of God and that His existence is discernable by everyone.[/COLOR]

2.1 billion Christians.

4.5 billion non-Christians.

The numbers do not support your notion.

 

[Tynan]

If God exists, than all sin is rebellion against Him

And yet it was god who poisoned man with sin ?

 

[HumbleUnderdog]

I love Christians who use this argument, that if you sincerely want to know God, then you will. I can tell from firsthand experience this is false.

It was a long time coming for me to lose my faith. Growing up, I gradually began to lose my faith. When this started happening, I started reading all the books supporting Christianity, surfing the internet looking for evidence.

Anything I found, I could also find atheist rebuttals and then some. And while atheist rebuttals to Christian arguments seemed logical and natural, Christian rebuttals to atheist argments just seemed convoluted and desperate.

For one thing, there are a lot of "christian books" out there that are full of crap. Also, what "seems" logical doesn't mean that it actually is logical. The atheist arguments I've seen so far, some of them do make sense when you first read them. But I found that this was because I wasn't studying the rebuttals and arguments very carefully and closely. I was jumping to conclusions.

I've seen some christian defenses that seemed desperate. They were usually arguments out of emotion, and not factual based on evidence. I've seen christian rebuttals too that are convoluted, because the christian was asked something outside of their field of study. Since christian apologetics covers quite the field, not every apologist knows the answer to every question. Sadly, some christians qill give you an answer using twisted logic and manipulating facts in order to at least provide an answer. It's not about what seems logical, it's about what actually is logical.

For instance, why don't you answer me the question: Why doesn't God heal amputees?

You don't need every single limb in order to do the work that God has set out for you to do. What difference would it make if God did heal amputees? The bible also promises that those who are faithful to Christ will be resurrected with a new body. So God will do some amputee healing, according to the bible.

Also, please tell me why are you a Christian?

Glad you asked. I had been severely depressed and suicidal from 16-21. I tried a few different meds, tried counselling, even studied 3 psychology courses in college to look for a cure, and went to a few therapy groups at the hospital.

I had rejected God earlier, because I thought christianity was religious and myth. In fact I hated christianity and church entirely. But since I was making some serious serious plans to kill myself, and because of all my personality problems, I saw no other options but suicide in order to relieve some of the pain. It was through my studying psychology and going to counselling that pointed out the problem, that I have never had a loving relationship with anyone before.

But since I had about a week left before I was gonna kill myself, I cried out one last time for help. Outside having a smoke, without even thinking about it I cried out in my mind "is anyone out there who cares? Is anyone there who knows how to help me? Is there a love force of some kind that cares about me? Is there a god who can hear me who knows how to heal me? Cuase it there is, then this god love force thing has to reveal himself to me now, or else I'm done for. If there is a god, then you need to show me that you love me, you need to show me that you care in some way that I'll never miss. "

Now I wasn't expecting any answer, because I didn't exactly believe if any kind of God, or spirit, or force existed. Actually I wasn't sure if God existed, I didn't believe in God, but I believe that there was at least a small possibilty that God existed.

Also, all the psychology I learned explained that ppl with depression and major personality issues will probably never fully heal, but can at best reduce some of the symptoms, either thru meds or therapy, and that it would take months maybe years for any therapy to really have much of an effect. I didn't react to most of the meds I took, the one I did react to made it worse.

But I woke up about 3 or 4 days after I prayed that prayer, and I had no depressed feelings or suicidal thoughts whatsoever, and haven't had any ever since, nor have I felt compelled once to take my own life. And the personality and attitude changes and thoughts that happened to me immediately after this huge change matched that of the bible of someone who is new in Christ. So that's why I believe in God and have a personal relationship with Him. Because if God doesn't exist, then I wouldn't exist either. ( I also did some studying becuase I wanted to make sure that I wasn't in some sort of a placebo affect, or in some power of suggestion mode, or believing in something that has no historical credibilty to it.)

I prayed for God to somehow strengthen my faith. He never did. All I had fluttering through my mind was questions about the world that I couldn't come up with a rationalization for.

Eventually, I had to admit to myself that I didn't believe. All of a sudden, all of these questions left my mind. The world now makes sense to me under the assumption that Christianity is fiction.

Been there. I found out that what I was doing was praying for God's help when I hadn't even prayed and asked Him to come into my life first. My prayers were just thoughts in my head, thoughts that weren't even directed toward God. Finally I rejected God and christianity as I mentioned above, because I couldn't make any sense of it, and it all came a cross as myth, a way of life for ppl who are locked up in ideology.

I have to ask, have you prayed and asked God to answer some of the questions that you have about the world?

You say Christianity will change my life; I disagree. Christianity was a burden to my soul. I've thrown it off and I feel so much better.

Christianity though, isn't based on how you feel. It's based on fact, facts that lead to faith. I can't really tell what your faith is like based on what you've posted, I'd need more details. You might have been like me and thought you were a christian because you went to church and "prayed" vain prayers because you thought that's what you had to do.

 

[Silenus]

The existence of God and that His existence is discernable by everyone.[/COLOR]
2.1 billion Christians.

4.5 billion non-Christians.

The numbers do not support your notion.

being discernable by everyone and being believed by everyone are two different matters and has nothing to do with numbers.

many people discerned flat earth, even though it was discernable that the earth was not flat. truth is not majority opinion. Surely, you wouldn’t use the same argument when using the majority of people who are theist vs. non-theist?

And yet it was god who poisoned man with sin ?

Explain please.

 

[Tynan]

The existence of God and that His existence is discernable by everyone.

being discernable by everyone and being believed by everyone are two different matters and has nothing to do with numbers.

Define discernible.

What do you then mean by "The existence of God and that His existence is discernable by everyone." ?

 

[Tynan]

Explain please.

God made man knowing that he would sin.

 

[Silenus]

How does this . . .

God made man knowing that he would sin.

become this . . .

And yet it was god who poisoned man with sin ?

 

[Tynan]

How does this . . .

"God made man knowing that he would sin.
become this . . ."

become this . . .

"And yet it was god who poisoned man with sin ?"

God made man, god designed every facet of man's character.

One of man's characteristic is to sin.

God's not only put this in place but did it knowingly.

 

[Silenus]

God made man, god designed every facet of man's character.

One of man's characteristic is to sin.

God's not only put this in place but did it knowingly.

Evil is not a characteristic of a thing it is a judgement of things and actions in relation to purpose. I don't look at pencil and say evil. I look at the action of using that pencil to stab out someone's eyes and say evil because is not what one ought to do. Evil happened when man did what he ought not to do. It was not part of the creation of man. Also, foreknowledge is approval but not ordination. Not the same thing.

 

[Emmy]

Dear m9lc. The first man, rapist, murderer,etc. accepts the Lord`s Gift of reconciliation with God, he is ready to repent, and become the person, or soul, which God wants to spend eternity with. The second man, although believing that he is " a good man," does not believe God, does not accept Jesus `s Gift of Redemption, because he does not believe it. We know God gave us free will, we can accept Him and His saving Grace, or we refuse His Gift. What is the natural out come, m9le? The believer joins God and his Christian brothers and sisters, in Heaven, the good man, who does not believe God, will end up in a place, in outer Darkness, without God, or other believing and saved Christians. I say this humbly and lovingly, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Tynan]

God made man, god designed every facet of man's character.

One of man's characteristic is to sin.

God's not only put this in place but did it knowingly.

Evil is not a characteristic of a thing it is a judgement of things and actions in relation to purpose.

I have not used the Christian conceit of 'evil' in my point ?

I have said, man was designed by god.

Man has sinned as it is in his character to do so, if it were not he would not have sinned.

God knowingly designed a creature that would sin.

Evil happened when man did what he ought not to do.

God designed man, man did what he ought not to do and sinned, god punished this sinning.

The fact that you throw in the word evil as a description of the act of sinning does not impact on my point in any way that is clear to me.

I could rewrite my point to take in your contribution if you would like ? :



God made man, god designed every facet of man's character.

One of man's characteristic is to sin. When he sinned, god judged this sinning as evil.

God's not only put this in place but did it knowingly.

 

[SAINTAN]

Here's a question for Christians:

Let's say a man spends all of his life raping and killing tens of little girls. He gets caught, and is sentenced to death. However, minutes before his injection, he receives the Gospel and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior. By traditional Christian doctrine, that man is saved and goes to heaven, and experiences the greatest happiness anyone could ever imagine.

Now, here's me, someone who lives a good and moral life, is kind to people, donates to charity, etc., but happens not to believe in any organized religion. Now, traditional Christian doctrine states that I will burn in hell for eternity, undergoing incomprehensible pain that will never, ever end.

Frankly, I don't think anyone in the world deserves to go to Hell forever. Not the worst serial killer, not the worst thief, not the worst rapist, not even Hitler. Maybe they deserve to go to hell for a very long time, hundreds of years maybe, but no one can commit infinite sin; no one deserves to go to Hell for an infinite amount of time.

See my problem here? Please explain to me how this aspect of Christian doctrine, which is arguably the most important, is at all justified.

Listen, if Jesus Christ is letting pedophile serial killers into heaven then I got some beef with him. I guess, however, I'm going to be burning in hell for not accepting some man as my personal savior. Maybe it is better off this way, seeing how I don't want to hang out with pedophile serial killers.

 

[Silenus]

God made man, god designed every facet of man's character.

One of man's characteristic is to sin. When he sinned, god judged this sinning as evil.

God's not only put this in place but did it knowingly.

God gave man the characteristic of choice, not determinism. If I know the future outcome of a football game, it doesn't mean I caused the outcome. The characteristic of free choice is not the same as the characteristic to sin. It is the same as the characteristic of the ability to sin but it is also the ability not to sin. God did know the outcome and you seem to be saying that, because he knew the outcome, he shouldn't have created at all? Is that your contention?

 

[quatona]

God gave man the characteristic of choice, not determinism. If I know the future outcome of a football game, it doesn't mean I caused the outcome.

If you have created the game, the rules, the players, the field, the conditions and everything and know exactly how everything will turn out it does exactly mean this.

 

[Tynan]

God gave man the characteristic of choice, not determinism.

I have not said god gave man the characteristic of determinism.

If I know the future outcome of a football game, it doesn't mean I caused the outcome.

You seem to have changed the argument to simply knowing the outcome ?

That is a facile argument I have not made.

It is an entirely different argument to the idea that you designed the complete set up, including which direction each blade of grass fell on the football pitch, you designed the precise wind conditions, the ability of every muscle group of every part of every player's body and every muscles ability to utilize glycogen and you designed its ability to resist the effects of lactic acid and utilize ATP and you designed this knowing what the effects would be, you designed it knowing the outcome.

It is the same as the characteristic of the ability to sin but it is also the ability not to sin.

So god designed us with the ability to choose.


He set the environment so that their was sin to be done.

We did exactly as he knew we would do when he designed us, we sinned.

He then punished us.


The problem with this largely semantic justification is that the dreadful outcome of sin was included in the original design.

Whichever way you like to re-word it, god designed man knowing that his inclusion of mans ability to sin would lead the vast majority of mankind into an eternal hell.

 

[serephim01]

Listen, if Jesus Christ is letting pedophile serial killers into heaven then I got some beef with him. I guess, however, I'm going to be burning in hell for not accepting some man as my personal savior. Maybe it is better off this way, seeing how I don't want to hang out with pedophile serial killers.

{Maybe it is better off this way, seeing how I don't want to hang out with pedophile serial killers.}
You will just not the saved ones...in hell you will be seperate from God....that is really where all the pain comes from....absolute darkness,absolute pain, absolute horror...Jesus makes it clear that he is basically taking your punishment away by having given his life for yours. As for the pedofiles....if they accepted christ they will end up in heaven and no doubt have no recollection of their misdoings as there is no pain or sadness in heaven. Try reading 23 Minutes in Hell....frightening if you ask me

 

[Tynan]

As for the pedofiles....if they accepted christ they will end up in heaven and no doubt have no recollection of their misdoings as there is no pain or sadness in heaven.

So as well as replacing missing limbs does god wipe your memory clean and change your character as you enter heaven ?

Try reading 23 Minutes in Hell....frightening if you ask me

LOL !

I love that story, corny religious horror always raises a smile when I read it - "no but it's true !!!, that man said so !!"

Excellent fun

So if you take the more modern interpretation of hell - the 'separation from god' why is this story (that I take you put some credence in) full of comic book monsters in this man 'revelation' ?