Eternal punishment vs eternal life

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Dec 14, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Until you start answering the questions posed to you, I will refrain from participating in any further discussions with you.

Name some relevant questions I have not answered.

Der Alte’s unanswered questions

1). Other than maintaining your position on ECT, please tell me what is lost in translating Aion/Aionios as an age, age-abiding etc…?

Your answer: It cannot mean both eternal and age, age abiding. Aionios is an adjective it cannot be translated as a noun "age." Is the adjective "aionios" so difficult to translate that it takes two words. Or is that driven by personal bias?

Comment: question remains unanswered. Also, please note the snide reply … “Is the adjective "aionios" so difficult to translate that it takes two words?”

2). Also, you state Aionios cannot be translated as eternal and non-eternal, yet you say Aionios is translated “a few times to refer to things which are not/can not be eternal but is never so defined.” What does that even mean?

Your answer: tick tock, tick tock, tick tock …

3). By the way … I have asked you on more than one occasion if you have considered that YOU may be one of those of who Jesus said “I never knew you. Depart from me you who work iniquity.” I have never received an answer.

Your answer: tick tock, tick tock, tick tock

Here are just three unanswered questions from this thread. Should I go back in our thread history and provide more? I can if you wish.

Der Alte · Dec 14, 2024

Jeff Saunders said:
I will name a question you I have seen you answer - can you show me one verse that when Aionios is translated as - of the age or pertaining to the age - it makes the verse false. For example I will use the verse you used “ should not perish but have the life pertaining to the age” how is this false?

"Aionios" is an adjective and should be and can be translated as one English adjective. OTOH "Age" a noun is a finite period of time. Which word(s) are you translating "pertaining to"? Greek is and has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since the church began. Here is how the EGOC translates "aionios" in John 3:15-16

so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal [aionios] life. '*Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal [aionios] life.

Here is a link to the EOB so if you are so inclined you can look up John 3:15-16 or any other vss where aionios occurs.

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

Der Alte · Dec 14, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Name some relevant questions I have not answered.

Der Alte’s unanswered questions
1). Other than maintaining your position on ECT, please tell me what is lost in translating Aion/Aionios as an age, age-abiding etc…?

I am not maintaining any false beliefs. You may note that I quoted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible. Their language has been Greek since the church began. Aion is a noun. Aionios is an adjective. I can't understand why it takes two words in English to translate the single Greek word "aionios."

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Your answer: It cannot mean both eternal and age, age abiding. Aionios is an adjective it cannot be translated as a noun "age." Is the adjective "aionios" so difficult to translate that it takes two words. Or is that driven by personal bias?

Comment: question remains unanswered. Also, please note the snide reply … “Is the adjective "aionios" so difficult to translate that it takes two words?”

It is not snide it is fact. I know of no other single word in the entire Greek N.T. which requires 2 English words to translate.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
2). Also, you state Aionios cannot be translated as eternal and non-eternal, yet you say Aionios is translated “a few times to refer to things which are not/can not be eternal but is never so defined.” What does that even mean?

Your answer: tick tock, tick tock, tick tock …

Allow me to correct my grammar. The Greek word "aionios" cannot be translated lexically correct as both eternal and non-eternal. In some versions it is incorrectly translated a few times to refer to things which are not/cannot be eternal "but is never so defined.” In 24 vss. I posted previously "aionios" is defined by other adjectives or phrases as eternal/everlasting. See e.g.

EOB John 3:15-16 15. so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. 16. '*Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Should not perish 2X certainly means eternal to me.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
3). By the way … I have asked you on more than one occasion if you have considered that YOU may be one of those of who Jesus said “I never knew you. Depart from me you who work iniquity.” I have never received an answer.
Your answer: tick tock, tick tock, tick tock

I am not worried about that one bit but I'm not so sure about you.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Here are just three unanswered questions from this thread. Should I go back in our thread history and provide more? I can if you wish.

I will take care of them as easily as I did these. Bring it.

Jeff Saunders · Dec 14, 2024

Der Alte said:
"Aionios" is an adjective and should be and can be translated as one English adjective. OTOH "Age" a noun is a finite period of time. Which word(s) are you translating "pertaining to"? Greek is and has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since the church began. Here is how the EGOC translates "aionios" in John 3:15-16

so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal [aionios] life. '*Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal [aionios] life.
Here is a link to the EOB so if you are so inclined you can look up John 3:15-16 or any other vss where aionios occurs.

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

I don’t care about what others think I want to know what you think. Can you give me an example of one verse that when Aionios is translated as age enduring it makes the passage false.

Der Alte · Dec 14, 2024

Jeff Saunders said:
I don’t care about what others think I want to know what you think. Can you give me an example of one verse that when Aionios is translated as age enduring it makes the passage false.

Every verse where aionios is translated "age enduring" is false. Age is a finite period. Aionios means eternal/everlasting.
I present 3 more vss., out of my list of 10 vss. where Jesus defines aionios as eternal/everlasting.

Luke 1:33

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal, no end.

John 6:58

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

John 10:28

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”
Please feel free to check the vss. in the EOB link below. The language of the Eastern Orthodox church has always been Greek. I am certain they know how to translate aionios into English.
Link to the Eastern Orthodox Greek bible.

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Dec 14, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Name some relevant questions I have not answered.

Der Alte’s unanswered questions
1). Other than maintaining your position on ECT, please tell me what is lost in translating Aion/Aionios as an age, age-abiding etc…?

I am not maintaining any false beliefs. You may note that I quoted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible. Their language has been Greek since the church began. Aion is a noun. Aionios is an adjective. I can't understand why it takes two words in English to translate the single Greek word "aionios."

Response: Again, not answered but moving on.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Your answer: It cannot mean both eternal and age, age abiding. Aionios is an adjective it cannot be translated as a noun "age." Is the adjective "aionios" so difficult to translate that it takes two words. Or is that driven by personal bias?

Comment: question remains unanswered. Also, please note the snide reply … “Is the adjective "aionios" so difficult to translate that it takes two words?”

It is not snide it is fact. I know of no other single word in the entire Greek N.T. which requires 2 English words to translate.

Response: Let me get this correct. You reject a literal rendering of Aionios because it takes two or more words to translate? That is, to use one of your favorite words, ridiculous and I’ll and absurd! Now, let’s think about this logically and grammatically. The adjective Aionios contains the noun Aion. So in order to modify the noun aion contained in the word Aionios, the translators, in an effort to convey the nouns inherent meaning use: age-abiding, age enduring, unto the age etc … to properly modify it.

You are correct in saying age is limited in time, but I’ll also add its limited duration is not always defined, so it can be and indefinite period of time, a very loooooong time, but nevertheless the age does indeed end. Now, if an age is limited, and the adjective Aionios modifies the noun aion, how can the age be eternal? In other words: “An adjective cannot be greater than the noun it modifies" means that when describing a noun with an adjective, the adjective should not imply a quality that is larger or more significant than the noun itself; essentially, the descriptive power of the adjective should stay within the reasonable bounds of the noun it's describing, avoiding illogical or exaggerated comparisons.” You know … for example like using the word eternal. It is inherently impossible and grammatically incorrect my friend. The rendering eternal is simply illogical and far exceeds the inherent meaning of age. Perhaps hyperbolic in its use but not an accurate rendering. Would you not agree?

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
2). Also, you state Aionios cannot be translated as eternal and non-eternal, yet you say Aionios is translated “a few times to refer to things which are not/can not be eternal but is never so defined.” What does that even mean?

Your answer: tick tock, tick tock, tick tock …

Allow me to correct my grammar. The Greek word "aionios" cannot be translated lexically correct as both eternal and non-eternal. In some versions it is incorrectly translated a few times to refer to things which are not/cannot be eternal "but is never so defined.” In 24 vss. I posted previously "aionios" is defined by other adjectives or phrases as eternal/everlasting. See e.g.
EOB John 3:15-16 15. so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. 16. '*Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Should not perish 2X certainly means eternal to me.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
3). By the way … I have asked you on more than one occasion if you have considered that YOU may be one of those of who Jesus said “I never knew you. Depart from me you who work iniquity.” I have never received an answer.
Your answer: tick tock, tick tock, tick tock

I am not worried about that one bit but I'm not so sure about you.

Response: Are you sure about that my friend? Jesus divulged that there will be some seriously stunned people; people who were doing all kinds of preaching and great works yet found themselves cast away from His presence. Even the late, highly revered, great modern day reformed theologian, apologist and pastor R.C. Sproal stated in a prayer of the possibility of his own self deception. This is the result of being bound to a theological paradigm which demands acknowledgment of its inherent demands to certain doctrines. In this case, the man made demonic influenced doctrine of ECT.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Here are just three unanswered questions from this thread. Should I go back in our thread history and provide more? I can if you wish.

I will take care of them as easily as I did these. Bring it.

Response: No need my friend as you responded to my questions. But why did it take so much teeth pulling to get you to do so? Sheeesh.

Der Alte · Dec 14, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
...Now, if an age is limited, and the adjective Aionios modifies the noun aion, how can the age be eternal? In other words: “An adjective cannot be greater than the noun it modifies" means that when describing a noun with an adjective, the adjective should not imply a quality that is larger or more significant than the noun itself; essentially, the descriptive power of the adjective should stay within the reasonable bounds of the noun it's describing, avoiding illogical or exaggerated comparisons.” You know … for example like using the word eternal. It is inherently impossible and grammatically incorrect my friend. The rendering eternal is simply illogical and far exceeds the inherent meaning of age. Perhaps hyperbolic in its use but not an accurate rendering. Would you not agree?...

A lot of irrelevant meandering. In none of the 24 vss. I quoted does the adjective aionios modify the noun, aion. I do not know of a single occurrence in the Bible where aionios modifies aion.

"You know … for example like using the word eternal. It is inherently impossible and grammatically incorrect my friend. The rendering eternal is simply illogical and far exceeds the inherent meaning of age."

Unsupported claims without any evidence. You have yet to address the source I quoted i.e. the Eastern Greek Orthodox bible. You have referred to some scholars BUT all their scholarship combined cannot even come close to the about 2000 years of Greek scholarship supporting the Eastern Greek Orthodox bible I quoted.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Dec 14, 2024

Der Alte said:
A lot of irrelevant meandering.

Lol … now this is coming from the one who always stomps his feet about being insulting … lol

Lol … at myself. Doh (face palm). I was thinking through the noun/adjective relationship but ended up never applying it to any particular noun it was modifying. In my brain aion was the other noun Aionios was modifying. Don’t ask me to explain how that happened … but it did. ADHD can be a trip to live with and always makes perfect sense in the brain it occupies.

Now, applied to John 3:16 the above grammatical principle still applies (even if I didn’t articulate my thoughts and apply them correctly). The adjective Aionios, which is carrying the weight of the noun Aion, as it is applied to life, still cannot impart with it a greater value or quality than the noun itself. If Aion is of limited duration, as you stated it means, then Aionios cannot mean eternal life, or everlasting life etc … I think I got it right this time. Lol.

Der Alte said:
In none of the 24 vss. I quoted does the adjective aionios modify the noun, aion. I do not know of a single occurrence in the Bible where aionios modifies aion.

"You know … for example like using the word eternal. It is inherently impossible and grammatically incorrect my friend. The rendering eternal is simply illogical and far exceeds the inherent meaning of age."
Unsupported claims without any evidence. You have yet to address the source I quoted i.e. the Eastern Greek Orthodox bible. You have referred to some scholars BUT all their scholarship combined cannot even come close to the about 2000 years of Greek scholarship supporting the Eastern Greek Orthodox bible I quoted.

It’s one thing to quote, cite or reference the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible but it is entirely another thing to explain for yourself how they arrived at their translation. Just saying their scholarship is far superior than all others put together doesn’t explain to me how they arrived at their interpretation. Care to take the time to explain it to me? Or are you content with just letting them think and speak for you? Who knows, maybe you will persuade me to adjust my view.

I’m not afraid to admit I was/am wrong. I used to be of the Calvinist persuasion. I used to embrace the doctrine of ECT. But I was challenged to defend and explain my position. When the Lord pulled back the curtains of deception from my eyes and showed me the veracity and depth of His love for me, my family and ALL of mankind; I repented of my blind adherence to orthodoxy and bailed on that sinking ship.

Praise God for humbling me and drawing me closer to Him. I desire to learn and know the truth given by God through Scripture, but I won’t accept it just because it comes from a group of scholars who claim to have the truth. All truth is found in and received through Jesus. I need to know how the scholar arrived at the position they have taken to see for myself if what they say is affirmed in the Scripture. I may have stumbled over myself trying to explain Aion/Aionion Life, but at least I stood up, brushed myself off, laughed at myself, then again tried to explained how I arrived at my position. Which I believe I did and will continue to do so as I submit myself to THE TRUTH.

Servus · Dec 15, 2024

Der Alte said:
A lot of irrelevant meandering. In none of the 24 vss. I quoted does the adjective aionios modify the noun, aion. I do not know of a single occurrence in the Bible where aionios modifies aion.

"You know … for example like using the word eternal. It is inherently impossible and grammatically incorrect my friend. The rendering eternal is simply illogical and far exceeds the inherent meaning of age."
Unsupported claims without any evidence. You have yet to address the source I quoted i.e. the Eastern Greek Orthodox bible. You have referred to some scholars BUT all their scholarship combined cannot even come close to the about 2000 years of Greek scholarship supporting the Eastern Greek Orthodox bible I quoted.

You cite the EOB a lot, but do you subscribe to Eastern Orthodox theology regarding salvation and hell?

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Dec 15, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Again, “perish” does not = suffer! I’m fine with perish/lost my problem is with the defined time (eternal) imposed in to a a word which is undefined by time.

Der Alte said:
”I never said nor implied that perish means suffer. FYI I am convinced that perish means to cease to exist.

My reply:
Der Alt, have you changed your view/stance on ECT? This above highlighted statement took me by surprise as I am almost positive you were a strong proponent of ECT. If you have repositioned your stance on the fate of unbelievers at the judgment seat of God I am very intrigued indeed. Please, if you are so inclined to do so, develop for me your transition from ECT to your new position.

Good on you if you have, as I am open to hearing about most any form of judgement other than the heinous, demonic inspired doctrine of ECT; it alone is the single most obscene slandering of the Name, character and nature of God and is not found anywhere in the Scripture. If I am wrong in my assessment of your statement then please qualify what you meant or intended to say.

Edited: Der Alte, I also wanted to publicly state my heart towards you. You are my brother in Christ. I love you. Forgive me for the times I responded to you in my flesh with any insults, digs or otherwise. We both know the admonition of Jesus “… by this shall all men know you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.“ If iron sharpens iron my friend, God is using you to hone my course edges and anchor my faith in the One who has loved us ALL so very, very, well …

‬‬
Blessings upon you and all those you love my brother.
Merks

Servus · Dec 15, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
I never said nor implied that perish means suffer. FYI I am convinced that perish means to cease to exist.

Der Alt, have you changed your view/stance on ECT? This above highlighted statement took me by surprise as I am almost positive you were a strong proponent of ECT. If you have repositioned your stance on the fate of unbelievers at the judgment seat of God I am very intrigued indeed. Please, if you are so inclined to do so, develop for me your transition from ECT to your new position.

Good on you if you have, as I am open to hearing about most any form of judgement other than the heinous, demonic inspired doctrine of ECT; it alone is the single most obscene slandering of the Name, character and nature of God and is not found anywhere in the Scripture. If I am wrong in my assessment of your statement then please qualify what you meant or intended to say.

This is confusing as you're quoting yourself rather than Der Alte.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Dec 15, 2024

ozso said:
This is confusing as you're quoting yourself rather than Der Alte.

Yea. I can’t seem to get the hang of replying and quoting someone at the same time. Thanks, I went back and edited to at least make clear the statement from my brother Der Alte. Sigh …

Servus · Dec 15, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Yea. I can’t seem to get the hang of replying and quoting someone at the same time. Thanks, I went back and edited to at least make clear the statement from my brother Der Alte. Sigh …

It's easy to click the wrong post to when replying. I've clicked on my own post several times before. Usually I just copy what I posted, delete the whole thing, and start over.

Der Alte · Dec 15, 2024

ozso said:
You cite the EOB a lot, but do you subscribe to Eastern Orthodox theology regarding salvation and hell?

I have never looked into their beliefs on salvation and hell. Why don't you inform me. I'm not sure how that relates to what I have posted here.

Servus · Dec 15, 2024

Der Alte said:
I have never looked into their beliefs on salvation and hell. Why don't you inform me. I'm not sure how that relates to what I have posted here.

How they interpret their own bible, might go along with yours when you refer to the EOB.

Jeff Saunders · Dec 15, 2024

Der Alte said:
Every verse where aionios is translated "age enduring" is false. Age is a finite period. Aionios means eternal/everlasting.
I present 3 more vss., out of my list of 10 vss. where Jesus defines aionios as eternal/everlasting.

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there

Der Alte said:

Every verse where aionios is translated "age enduring" is false. Age is a finite period. Aionios means eternal/everlasting.
I present 3 more vss., out of my list of 10 vss. where Jesus defines aionios as eternal/everlasting.

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]
In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal, no end.

John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”
Please feel free to check the vss. in the EOB link below. The language of the Eastern Orthodox church has always been Greek. I am certain they know how to translate aionios into English.
Link to the Eastern Orthodox Greek bible.

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

Click to expand...

Ok lets look at John 6:8 as an example / what part is false if the verse is translated properly as "but whoever feeds on this bread will live in this age" Did not Jesus say that those who put their trust in him will be changed from death to life ? So by following Jesus we get life now we cross over from death to life, this is talking about this age it also applies to the next age but it is also true for this age also. The difference in understanding is how we understand about ages and how God works in ages, many verses that the Latin influenced west think are about heaven are really talking about this age not the next. This comes down to how we understand what God is doing and has done , most of the west think that scripture is about who goes to heaven and who goes to what you call hell but I see that Jesus came to give us life now and he has given us the opportunity to be part of his family and kingdom and we can have a glorified spiritual body and life in the next age. For example in the scripture Matt 7:13~14 " Enter through the narrow gate; for the path leading away to destruction is broad and open, and there are many who enter by it; For narrow is the gate and close-cramped the path leading away to life, and those who find it are few" most think this is talking about heaven and hell but I believe that this is for now. Jesus came to be the savior of the world and he accomplished his mission he did not fail so the next age is taken care of but we still have to live on this earth now and the more people who find Jesus now and live by his ways makes our time here better, could you imagine what it would be like if all people followed Jesus our life would be so much better. So I see this verse for now in this life its not talking about heaven and what you call hell. I use David Bentley Harts New Testament and this is how he has translated Luke 1:33 "And he will reign over the house of Jacob throughout the age, and of his kingdom there will be no end" He is a scholar of biblical Greek and has translated the NT. as for the EOB I do listen to some Greek Orthodox teachers and they don't all agree with the use of eternal for Aionios but quote the early church fathers who say otherwise , so don't think that they all agree on that. I hope you can understand where I am coming from , I don't expect you to agree but hopefully I was clear enough for you to understand what tradition I follow. let me know what you think not a cut and past pages.

Der Alte · Dec 15, 2024

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Now, applied to John 3:16 the above grammatical principle still applies (even if I didn’t articulate my thoughts and apply them correctly). The adjective Aionios, which is carrying the weight of the noun Aion, as it is applied to life, still cannot impart with it a greater value or quality than the noun itself. If Aion is of limited duration, as you stated it means, then Aionios cannot mean eternal life, or everlasting life etc … I think I got it right this time. Lol.

I don't recall ever saying aion meant age. Aion means eternity.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
It’s one thing to quote, cite or reference the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible but it is entirely another thing to explain for yourself how they arrived at their translation. Just saying their scholarship is far superior than all others put together doesn’t explain to me how they arrived at their interpretation. Care to take the time to explain it to me? Or are you content with just letting them think and speak for you? Who knows, maybe you will persuade me to adjust my view.

I was only referring to the Greek scholars knowing the meaning of Greek words. It will take a lot of 'splaining to me to show that the Greek scholars are wrong.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
I’m not afraid to admit I was/am wrong. I used to be of the Calvinist persuasion. I used to embrace the doctrine of ECT. But I was challenged to defend and explain my position. When the Lord pulled back the curtains of deception from my eyes and showed me the veracity and depth of His love for me, my family and ALL of mankind; I repented of my blind adherence to orthodoxy and bailed on that sinking ship.

I still believe in ECP, eternal conscious punishment

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Praise God for humbling me and drawing me closer to Him. I desire to learn and know the truth given by God through Scripture, but I won’t accept it just because it comes from a group of scholars who claim to have the truth. All truth is found in and received through Jesus. I need to know how the scholar arrived at the position they have taken to see for myself if what they say is affirmed in the Scripture. I may have stumbled over myself trying to explain Aion/Aionion Life, but at least I stood up, brushed myself off, laughed at myself, then again tried to explained how I arrived at my position. Which I believe I did and will continue to do so as I submit myself to THE TRUTH.

I was only referring to the Greek scholars knowing the meaning of Greek words. There may some things in their theology I do not agree with

Der Alte · Dec 15, 2024

@Jeff Sanders
Format of post prevents reply format. Quotes from your post are indented.

@Jeff Sanders "Ok lets look at John 6:8 as an example / what part is false if the verse is translated properly as "but whoever feeds on this bread will live in this age" "

If you ignore the fact that I showed from 24 vss, that aionios means "eternal/everlasting.

"Did not Jesus say that those who put their trust in him will be changed from death to life ? So by following Jesus we get life now we cross over from death to life, this is talking about this age it also applies to the next age but it is also true for this age also. The difference in understanding is how we understand about ages and how God works in ages, many verses that the Latin influenced west think are about heaven are really talking about this age not the next.[age]"

You ignore everything I posted, never addressed anything and proceed as if you have somehow proven that aionios means age.,

"This comes down to how we understand what God is doing and has done , most of the west think that scripture is about who goes to heaven and who goes to what you call hell but I see that Jesus came to give us life now and he has given us the opportunity to be part of his family and kingdom and we can have a glorified spiritual body and life in the next age. For example in the scripture Matt 7:13~14 " Enter through the narrow gate; for the path leading away to destruction is broad and open, and there are many who enter by it; For narrow is the gate and close-cramped the path leading away to life, and those who find it are few" most think this is talking about heaven and hell but I believe that this is for now. Jesus came to be the savior of the world and he accomplished his mission he did not fail so the next age is taken care of but we still have to live on this earth now and the more people who find Jesus now and live by his ways makes our time here better, could you imagine what it would be like if all people followed Jesus our life would be so much better. So I see this verse for now in this life its not talking about heaven and what you call hell. I use David Bentley Harts New Testament and this is how he has translated Luke 1:33 "And he will reign over the house of Jacob throughout the age, and of his kingdom there will be no end" He is a scholar of biblical Greek and has translated the NT."

Does not even come close to proving your argument. Hart is some "scholar" he ignores the fact that "aionios" is an adjective and he translates it as a noun "age."

"as for the EOB I do listen to some Greek Orthodox teachers and they don't all agree with the use of eternal for Aionios but quote the early church fathers who say otherwise , so don't think that they all agree on that. I hope you can understand where I am coming from , I don't expect you to agree but hopefully I was clear enough for you to understand what tradition I follow. let me know what you think not a cut and past pages."

Right about here is where you should have quoted some of those "Greek orthodox teachers " and "early church fathers." I didn't "grow up" in a denomination. Unlike you I don't follow a denominational "tradition." I have been telling you all along what I think. If you don't like what I post don't read it and don't respond. "Cut and paste" implies dishonestly quoting someone else's work and presenting it as one's own without proper citation. And OBTW only the Catholic church is Latin influenced.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Dec 16, 2024

Der Alte said:
I still believe in ECP, eternal conscious punishment.

Help me understand the statement you made that I highlighted. If someone is to perish due to unbelief, and you are convinced perish means to “cease to exist” how can the non
existing person be in a state of “eternal conscious punishment?”

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Again, “perish” does not = suffer! I’m fine with perish/lost my problem is with the defined time (eternal) imposed in to a a word which is undefined by time.

Der Alte said:
”I never said nor implied that perish means suffer. FYI I am convinced that perish means to cease to exist.

Jeff Saunders · Dec 16, 2024

Der Alte said:
@Jeff Sanders
Format of post prevents reply format. Quotes from your post are indented.

@Jeff Sanders "Ok lets look at John 6:8 as an example / what part is false if the verse is translated properly as "but whoever feeds on this bread will live in this age" "
If you ignore the fact that I showed from 24 vss, that aionios means "eternal/everlasting.

"Did not Jesus say that those who put their trust in him will be changed from death to life ? So by following Jesus we get life now we cross over from death to life, this is talking about this age it also applies to the next age but it is also true for this age also. The difference in understanding is how we understand about ages and how God works in ages, many verses that the Latin influenced west think are about heaven are really talking about this age not the next.[age]"
You ignore everything I posted, never addressed anything and proceed as if you have somehow proven that aionios means age.,

"This comes down to how we understand what God is doing and has done , most of the west think that scripture is about who goes to heaven and who goes to what you call hell but I see that Jesus came to give us life now and he has given us the opportunity to be part of his family and kingdom and we can have a glorified spiritual body and life in the next age. For example in the scripture Matt 7:13~14 " Enter through the narrow gate; for the path leading away to destruction is broad and open, and there are many who enter by it; For narrow is the gate and close-cramped the path leading away to life, and those who find it are few" most think this is talking about heaven and hell but I believe that this is for now. Jesus came to be the savior of the world and he accomplished his mission he did not fail so the next age is taken care of but we still have to live on this earth now and the more people who find Jesus now and live by his ways makes our time here better, could you imagine what it would be like if all people followed Jesus our life would be so much better. So I see this verse for now in this life its not talking about heaven and what you call hell. I use David Bentley Harts New Testament and this is how he has translated Luke 1:33 "And he will reign over the house of Jacob throughout the age, and of his kingdom there will be no end" He is a scholar of biblical Greek and has translated the NT."
Does not even come close to proving your argument. Hart is some "scholar" he ignores the fact that "aionios" is an adjective and he translates it as a noun "age."

"as for the EOB I do listen to some Greek Orthodox teachers and they don't all agree with the use of eternal for Aionios but quote the early church fathers who say otherwise , so don't think that they all agree on that. I hope you can understand where I am coming from , I don't expect you to agree but hopefully I was clear enough for you to understand what tradition I follow. let me know what you think not a cut and past pages."

Right about here is where you should have quoted some of those "Greek orthodox teachers " and "early church fathers." I didn't "grow up" in a denomination. Unlike you I don't follow a denominational "tradition." I have been telling you all along what I think. If you don't like what I post don't read it and don't respond. "Cut and paste" implies dishonestly quoting someone else's work and presenting it as one's own without proper citation. And OBTW only the Catholic church is Latin influenced.

I will make this simple- is this a true or false statement “ is God the God of this age we are in now” if false can you explain why.

Eternal punishment vs eternal life

I’m a dirt nap and resurrection from glory!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

I’m a dirt nap and resurrection from glory!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

I’m a dirt nap and resurrection from glory!

<><

I’m a dirt nap and resurrection from glory!

<><

I’m a dirt nap and resurrection from glory!

<><

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

<><

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

I’m a dirt nap and resurrection from glory!

Well-Known Member

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