Eternal Justification !

[Brightfame52]

A word on God's Eternal Purpose !

Eph 3:11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Its quite appropriate to say a word on God's Eternal Purpose when considering such a subject matter as Eternal Justification.

Most religionists fail in their understanding of God's Eternal Purpose or Decree. The Decree is Eternal [Timeless] but it is executed as well in time, however by it being Eternal in the Mind of God who is Eternal Deut 33:27;1 Tim 1:17, its completed from His Eternal Perspective ! An Eternal Being cannot but view things from an Eternal Perspective, since He is God. For God's realization of His Eternal Purpose is not dependent upon the succession of Time or neither is it in Him a process that needs fulfilling before He realizes the completion of it. Now it does for us, His creatures, but that's why we are not God, and can never be God, because our rational being's is temporal. There is succession of God's Eternal Purpose only as it is revealed in time to the creature. For us to think that God only realizes His Eternal Decree or Purpose as it is realized in time by us His creatures is to bring God down to our level as a Temporal Being, or it is exalting ourselves to be equal with Him. For God's realization of things are not governed by temporal means, such as time.

The fulfillment of God's Eternal Purpose in time, does not bring realization of His Purpose to Himself, but to bring realization of it to His creatures in time Heb 6:17-18, He shews to the Heirs of Promise the immutability of His Counsel. God's Eternal Decree comprehends all things before time, throughout time and after time ! 2

 

[Brightfame52]

Justification before they believed !

The Justification of the Elect before they believed is Taught in Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Here all the elect or the church were Justified in their Head and Representative, when He rose from the dead after being delivered for their offences!

The YLT: who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

Christ resurrection from the dead was a testification or gives testimony that all for whom He died have been legally acquitted or discharged from all their sins. It was more than just an acquittal of Christ, because He was not delivered for His own offences, but the offences of others.

For Christ was their Surety, made so from Eternity in the Everlasting Covenant when He had their sins laid to His charge [imputation], by which He became legally liable by the Justice of God, and in due time, He gave Himself as an Offering for their sins, and when He arose from the dead, not as an private person, for He did not die as a private person for his own transgressions, but for the sins of the Many. So when He rose Justified and acquitted, then those for whom He died were also acquitted and Justified. For if He was delivered for their sins, then He was raised for their Justification, therefore all for whom Christ died and rose for , are Justified, even if they have not yet been born sinners, for God knows whose sins He bare , because it was for all those the Father hath given Him Jn 17:2. To deny this, one may as well deny Christ's resurrection from the dead. All this was accomplished [their Justification] before they believed a thing !2

 

[Brightfame52]

If one is Elect !

If one is of the Elect, they are Justified as Early as their Election was. Now Paul writes in Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Election and Justification go hand in hand. Paul writes that it is God that Justifieth. Who ? Why the Elect, which is quite plain from the scripture, for this cannot be gainsaid, and from it we read that nothing can be laid to the Charge of God's Elect, but He has Justified them. Now how long has God viewed them as Chosen or Elect in Christ ? Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How long ? Before the foundation of the world, then scripture teaches the Elect before God, have been Justified before the foundation of the world.

Also it should be noted that scripture teaches that God viewed His Elect in Christ before the world began, and scripture plainly teaches that there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus Rom 8:1 and 2 Tim 1:9

 

[Brightfame52]

Who are the objects of Justification ?

If we read the sacred writings in Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

It cannot be denied that Paul points to God's Elect as being the Ones God Justifies !

Now Who shall lay any Charge upon God's Elect ? Mind You Paul was not Just speaking of God's Elect in his present, but even of those who were yet to be born in the future ! Who would be able to lay charges against them ? Would they be born sinners as other men ? Of course they would. Would they be under the same legal condemnation as other men ? No they would not ! Why ? Because they are God's Elect, and others were not. Thats a benefit of being one of God's Elect, that other men do not have.

So God's Elect can not have anything laid to their Charge, for God has Justified them. Now when did they become God's Elect ? Was it when they believed ? No, they were His Elect from everlasting, they were Chosen in Christ before the world began, and given grace in Him Eph 1:4;2 Tim 1:9. If this be True, then as His Elect then, they were ['declared not guilty] and declared Righteous at the same time.

Also it was by Electing Grace that they were placed in Christ, and reckoned as in Him before the foundation of the world, and if this be so, then they must be reckoned as Righteous, for there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

 

[moonbeam]

Would they be born sinners as other men ? Of course they would. Would they be under the same legal condemnation as other men ? No they would not ! Why ?

So the elect are born sinners... something we can all agree on.
But according to your fallacy of eternal justification... they are not under the same legal condemnation as all other born sinners.

Are you suggesting that every elect individual is born with inherent faith in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ?
.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Beginning of Justification !

Justification has it's beginning [ If we can call it a beginning], not when a sinner believes or is converted, not even when Christ died upon the cross [in time] but before the world began in the Eternal Counsels of the God Head, in the Everlasting Covenant, at which time [ If we can call it time] many were chosen in Christ Jesus, The Only Eternally Begotten Son and Mediator, and they were Predestinated to the Adoption of Children see Eph 1:3-5 and 2 Tim 1:9, here it is stated that many in Christ were given Grace and Justification is freely by Grace Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The word freely here is important. It is the greek word dorean and means undeservedly ! Not because of ones Faith or Repentance or anything they did or did not do, not even their accepting it, for they did not even exist yet except in God's Mind and Eternal Purpose.

Now this being True, The Elect were viewed by the God Head in Christ and having Union with Him from Everlasting, and this Eternal Union is the foundation of the communicating of all the spiritual blessings or saving benefits [from the fall] which they the elect receive in time, all for the Glory of God's Grace freely given them in Christ before the world began Eph 1:6; 2 Tim 1:9 ! 2

 

[Brightfame52]

@moonbeam

But according to your fallacy of eternal justification... they are not under the same legal condemnation as all other born sinners.

Correct but its no fallacy

Are you suggesting that every elect individual is born with inherent faith in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ?

Huh ? No i dont know where in the world you get this comment from. Its not stated in anything I have posted.

 

[moonbeam]

Huh ? No i dont know where in the world you get this comment from. Its not stated in anything I have posted.

You have taken onboard a fallacy (eternal justification) affirmed by a few notable reformed theologians... without thinking it through yourself.

That is why all you can do is parrot their statements... without having any in-depth understanding of the relevant issues yourself.

That is also why you have been completely incapable of making, even a mediocre attempt, at refuting the substantive objections I have raised in previous posts.

Your response above is a clear indication that you are unable to think for yourself... you will merely obfuscate and deflect as a coping mechanism (your above response)... with the addition of some often repeated statements of dead men.

It's possible the objection I raised has gone completely over your head.

Think about it? - "Are you suggesting that every elect individual is born with inherent faith in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ?"
.

 

[moonbeam]

Not because of ones Faith or Repentance or anything they did or did not do, not even their accepting it, for they did not even exist yet except in God's Mind and Eternal Purpose.

In regard the portion of your comment I have bolded.

Did Satan and all the demons exist in the mind of the Triune God (in His essential essence) prior to the Creation?

How so?... in light of the scripture below.

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
(1 John 1:5)
.

 

[Paleouss]

The Beginning of Justification !

Hi Brightfame, hope your week is off to a good start.

I think the problem in this thread, and with the term eternal justification, is that your definition of justification is not the same as most others definition of it. So your thoughts about eternal justification don't even get off the ground because your definition of justification is not the same as others you are debating.

Before you can convince someone of eternal justification, you must establish what justification IS. For example, John Calvin says about justification: "On the contrary, a man will be justified by faith when, excluded from the righteousness of works, he by faith lays hold of the righteousness of Christ and clothed in it appears in the sight of God not as a sinner, but as righteous" (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, III. xi. 2, 21-23.).

Reading what John Calvin thinks (above), he says... "a man will be justified"... "when".. "faith lays hold of the righteousness of Christ". So according to John Calvin, in the moment that "faith lays hold the righteousness of Christ" is when one is justified. Then and only then one "appears in the sight of God not as a sinner" (John Calvin). Therefore, anyone who holds to Calvin's writings would immediately object and say, no, justification is when "faith lays hold of the righteousness of christ". This means, in time. This is not a denial of individual election from eternity. But it is a dispute on the term 'justification'.

For someone that follows Martin Luther, he says about justification that justification means imputation of Christ’s alien righteousness to the believer without merits. Martin Luther and John Calvin agree in concept on what 'justification' is. Therefore, anyone who holds to Luther's writings would also immediately object and say, no, justification is when the "imputation of Christ's alien righteousness" takes place. This also means in time.

So hopefully you can see, from what I just wrote, that your witness would seem to be missing the mark with many on this thread. Not because they don't have a discerning Spirit within, maybe some do and some don't, but because before you can debate a concept of 'eternal justification' (which is a misnomer, imo) you must get in agreement with the person you are debating as to what 'justification is'.

Once you agree to the definition of justification with those you debate, then one can have productive conversations on whether there is 'eternal justification'.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure
Your brother in Christ

 

[Brightfame52]

Not a inward work !

Justification is not a work that was wrought in the elect sinner [inwardly], for it is not the New Birth, however it is the fruit of it. In other words all whom are Justified from everlasting will in time be the recipients of the New Birth by the Spirit. This is when God causes the elect sinner to partake of a nature that corresponds with His declaration of them as Justified or Righteous because of the obedience of Christ. However Justification is just a legal term that defines the elect sinner as righteous in the Mind of God, even when the sinner is unrighteous in themselves and their manner of life. What they do or are doing or what they have not done has nothing to do with it, but it only has to do with what Christ done in their behalf, and the Father hath accepted it.

 

[Brightfame52]

@moonbeam

You have taken onboard a fallacy (eternal justification) affirmed by a few notable reformed theologians... without thinking it through yourself.

Thats very presumptuous for you to say, vry Judgmental and untrue.

 

[Brightfame52]

@moonbeam

Did Satan and all the demons exist in the mind of the Triune God (in His essential essence) prior to the Creation?

Yes but not for the same purpose

 

[Brightfame52]

@Paleouss

I think the problem in this thread, and with the term eternal justification, is that your definition of justification is not the same as most others definition of it. So your thoughts about eternal justification don't even get off the ground because your definition of justification is not the same as others you are debating.

That doesnt mean anything, Im not presenting the definitions of others. Try reading what I have presented please and not others

Hi Brightfame, hope your week is off to a good start.

I think the problem in this thread, and with the term eternal justification, is that your definition of justification is not the same as most others definition of it. So your thoughts about eternal justification don't even get off the ground because your definition of justification is not the same as others you are debating.

Before you can convince someone of eternal justification, you must establish what justification IS. For example, John Calvin says about justification: "On the contrary, a man will be justified by faith when, excluded from the righteousness of works, he by faith lays hold of the righteousness of Christ and clothed in it appears in the sight of God not as a sinner, but as righteous" (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, III. xi. 2, 21-23.).

Reading what John Calvin thinks (above), he says... "a man will be justified"... "when".. "faith lays hold of the righteousness of Christ". So according to John Calvin, in the moment that "faith lays hold the righteousness of Christ" is when one is justified. Then and only then one "appears in the sight of God not as a sinner" (John Calvin). Therefore, anyone who holds to Calvin's writings would immediately object and say, no, justification is when "faith lays hold of the righteousness of christ". This means, in time. This is not a denial of individual election from eternity. But it is a dispute on the term 'justification'.

For someone that follows Martin Luther, he says about justification that justification means imputation of Christ’s alien righteousness to the believer without merits. Martin Luther and John Calvin agree in concept on what 'justification' is. Therefore, anyone who holds to Luther's writings would also immediately object and say, no, justification is when the "imputation of Christ's alien righteousness" takes place. This also means in time.

So hopefully you can see, from what I just wrote, that your witness would seem to be missing the mark with many on this thread. Not because they don't have a discerning Spirit within, maybe some do and some don't, but because before you can debate a concept of 'eternal justification' (which is a misnomer, imo) you must get in agreement with the person you are debating as to what 'justification is'.

Once you agree to the definition of justification with those you debate, then one can have productive conversations on whether there is 'eternal justification'.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure
Your brother in Christ

I dont need to do all that, I have done my research, and will be presenting it. Ive studied this matter for over 3 decades.

 

[moonbeam]

Thats very presumptuous for you to say, vry Judgmental and untrue.

Is it presumptuous to form an opinion based on what is evident?

 

[moonbeam]

Yes but not for the same purpose

I am going to presume (now)... that you are able to expand this response (of yours)... to demonstrate how darkness (Satan) can be innate to light (the essential essence of the Triune God)

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
(1 John 1:5)
.

 

[moonbeam]

Not a inward work !

Justification is not a work that was wrought in the elect sinner [inwardly], for it is not the New Birth, however it is the fruit of it. In other words all whom are Justified from everlasting will in time be the recipients of the New Birth by the Spirit. This is when God causes the elect sinner to partake of a nature that corresponds with His declaration of them as Justified or Righteous because of the obedience of Christ. However Justification is just a legal term that defines the elect sinner as righteous in the Mind of God, even when the sinner is unrighteous in themselves and their manner of life. What they do or are doing or what they have not done has nothing to do with it, but it only has to do with what Christ done in their behalf, and the Father hath accepted it.

I want you to consider something... which will help (I believe) in unravelling the "the ball of string" regards the eternal decrees of God... in a manner that is scripturally accurate, and therefore true.

I believe the matter (eternal justification - as a concept) can be resolved - only - by recognising that the elect individuals are, in their origination in the mind of God... necessarily loved (the beloved of the Triune God/Christ)... that is a logical necessity.

Prior to... the resulting necessity (because of sin) of their justification in the mind of God (prior to Creation)

This is the correct understanding.

Because it permits the experiential event of their justification - that is... the actualisation of their justification... to occur in the Created domain.

That is a logical necessity because the blood of Christ is required to be shed for any forgiveness of sin... that can not occur (be actualised) in the essential essence of the Triune God (in the domain where God, alone, exists)

It can only be actualised (occur) in the domain... of the Creation.
.

 

[Brightfame52]

Justification is legally and declaratively a right standing before God as Judge. One can be before God either Justified or condemned, there is no middle ground. One is either born into this world as Justified or condemned before God, though all are born sinners. These are both what is termed forensic words, having to do with a courtroom setting. Now reconciliation, propitiation, justification and remission of sins are all joined together and all are dealt with by the blood of Christ. His blood has satisfied God's Justice in all these area's. Everyone Christ died for, having been slain in the Eternal Purpose of God before the foundation of the world, are reconciled, propitiated, justified and have remission of sins when they are born in this world dead in Trespasses and sins. This is True only Legally before God without them knowing about it. 2

 

[Brightfame52]

I am going to presume (now)... that you are able to expand this response (of yours)... to demonstrate how darkness (Satan) can be innate to light (the essential essence of the Triune God)

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
(1 John 1:5)
.

Its simple, God created people for different purposes, and He knew His Purpose before the world began

 

[Brightfame52]

I want you to consider something... which will help (I believe) in unravelling the "the ball of string" regards the eternal decrees of God... in a manner that is scripturally accurate, and therefore true.

I believe the matter (eternal justification - as a concept) can be resolved - only - by recognising that the elect individuals are, in their origination in the mind of God... necessarily loved (the beloved of the Triune God/Christ)... that is a logical necessity.

Prior to... the resulting necessity (because of sin) of their justification in the mind of God (prior to Creation)

This is the correct understanding.

Because it permits the experiential event of their justification - that is... the actualisation of their justification... to occur in the Created domain.

That is a logical necessity because the blood of Christ is required to be shed for any forgiveness of sin... that can not occur (be actualised) in the essential essence of the Triune God (in the domain where God, alone, exists)

It can only be actualised (occur) in the domain... of the Creation.
.

You entitled to your view