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Eternal Justification !

moonbeam

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Its simple, God created people for different purposes, and He knew His Purpose before the world began
The point I was making regards the query “demonstrate how darkness (Satan) can be innate to light (the essential essence of the Triune God)”

Is the following… although the concept of the Creation, inclusive of all component parts and entities, originates in the mind of the Triune God, in the domain, wherein the Triune God alone exists - the concept of “darkness” does not violate the scripture that states that “that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all”

Because it (darkness) is only a concept that exists as an abstraction within the mind of the Triune God in the domain wherein only 3 individual entities exist in reality… the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

Neither Satan, the demons, nor the elect individuals whom the Triune God loves exist in reality - they exist as concepts and abstractions (only).

Therefore… although the decree regards the justification, and adoption of the elect children of God are all inclusive in the mind of God as concepts and abstractions… those concepts (justification, adoption) and those abstractions (Satan, demons, elect and reprobate individuals) do not exist in reality.

Until… actualised… in the domain… of the Creation.
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Brightfame52

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Imputation of sins of the elect to Christ from the foundation!

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If in the Eternal Purpose of God, the Lamb has been slain from the foundation of the world, what was He slain for ? It was for the sins of those He was actually slain for in time ! God's Elect. We know this because Peter writing to God's Elect in 1 Pet 1:1-2 writes this to THEM 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Whose our sins ? Its the Elect according to the foreknowledge of God !

Now, if Christ was slain in the Eternal Purpose of the Father, it was for the sins of the foreknown Elect of God.

And that means their sins had been imputed to His Charge, in the Eternal Purpose of God before the foundation of the world. See 1 Pet 1:20 !

It was before the foundation of the world that the Triune God, The Father, Word, and Holy Spirit, The God-Head, in the Counsel of the Everlasting Covenant, Christ being the designated Surety thereof, The Father imputed, laid to the Sureties charge, in His Mediator Office 1 Tim 2:5, the sins of all His Elect. Also they received from Him the Imputed Righteousness of His future obedience unto the Law of God.

This imputation concerns only the Election of Grace among men, and not that of the reprobates, men or angels ! 2
 
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Brightfame52

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The point I was making regards the query “demonstrate how darkness (Satan) can be innate to light (the essential essence of the Triune God)”

Is the following… although the concept of the Creation, inclusive of all component parts and entities, originates in the mind of the Triune God, in the domain, wherein the Triune God alone exists - the concept of “darkness” does not violate the scripture that states that “that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all”

Because it (darkness) is only a concept that exists as an abstraction within the mind of the Triune God in the domain wherein only 3 individual entities exist in reality… the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.

Neither Satan, the demons, nor the elect individuals whom the Triune God loves exist in reality - they exist as concepts and abstractions (only).

Therefore… although the decree regards the justification, and adoption of the elect children of God are all inclusive in the mind of God as concepts and abstractions… those concepts (justification, adoption) and those abstractions (Satan, demons, elect and reprobate individuals) do not exist in reality.

Until… actualised… in the domain… of the Creation.
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Im sorry, you are asking me to abandon the topic Im studying eternal Justification and why, to pursue God and evil study. Im not going to do that.
 
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moonbeam

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Im sorry, you are asking me to abandon the topic Im studying eternal Justification and why, to pursue God and evil study. Im not going to do that.
How can you possibly speak of studying Justification without studying the dynamic between God and evil, between light and darkness?
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Brightfame52

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Eternally Justified in God's Purpose !

Everyone who is truly believing in the Son of God for their Salvation Jn 3:16, for the word believing there is in the present tense hence "whosoever is believing" was eternally Justified in the Purpose of God by the Grace of God Rom 8:30; 2 Tim 1:9

Rom 8:30

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The Justification of the Elect of God did not begin in time, but from everlasting. Paul when revealing in His Gospel the eternal decree of God and of predestination, states clearly that all of God's Elect were Justified in His Eternal Purpose of Grace ! Thats what Paul also points to in Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

What Hope of Eternal Life ? This right here Titus 1:2

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

The Elect were made Heirs of Eternal Life before the world began, by Grace, and they were Justified by that Grace before the world began !

The writer John Gill once said " God's will to elect is the election of His People; so also His will to Justify them is the justification of them" !

God's Justification of His People is an act of Grace and based upon the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Now this redemption, took place in the mind and purpose of God before the foundation of the world 1 Pet 1:20 and Rev 13:8


20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

2
 
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moonbeam

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The writer John Gill once said " God's will to elect is the election of His People; so also His will to Justify them is the justification of them"
You did comment in one of your recent posts that you have been studying the concept of eternal justification for 3 decades, which (I would presume) has enabled you to develop a comprehensive defence, against those in the reformed tradition who disavow the position you advocate.

The concept of eternal justification, unsurprisingly, is closely aligned with orthodox reformed theological perspectives, in that it derives its cogency from close examination of the decrees of God. Hence much of the language, and in particular, the scriptural references utilised, can appear to carry equitable weight, regards counterbalancing, against, the orthodox reformed position... this makes for some difficulties regards deconstructing the concept of eternal justification... but these difficulties are not insurmountable... which I will demonstrate... in the hope that you may re-evaluate your advocacy regards eternal justification.

Regards Gill comment - "God's will to elect is the election of His People; so also His will to Justify them is the justification of them"

Between the decree (will) to elect and the decree (will) to justify, there is a logical necessity that, there exists the decree (will) to condemn for sin.

This is a logical necessity because the decree to condemnation for sin, must be antecedent to, the decree to justify (justification).

At what point was Adam and Eve considered sinners and so under condemnation for their sin?
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Brightfame52

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In the Mind of God !

The religious people of our time have shown profound irreverence to God, as though, when something in the Mind of God means nothing to them, as though what's in His Mind as True cannot be True unless its true in the minds of his creatures, reducing God to their levels, which is blasphemy !

However in the Mind and Purpose of God, the Lord Jesus Christ was the lamb Slain from the foundation of the World Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is not saying that He was literally slain in time from the foundation, but that He was slain in the Mind and Eternal Purpose of God from the foundation of the World !

You see God the Father constituted His Son as an Surety of the Covenant, the Everlasting Covenant before the world began. He was designated a substitute and redeemer before the world began, and as such God in His own Mind looked upon His Son as having been slain, put to death for the Sins of His Elect from Eternity. This was prefigured with Abraham and Isaac. Even though Abraham did not literally put his son to death, he certainly had purposed to do so in his mind ! This purpose was so real that it was said that he received his son back from the dead ! Heb 11:19

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Abraham looked at his son as good as dead, and believed that God could raise him from the dead to establish His earlier promises regarding him !
And so, The Father looked at His own beloved Son as already scarified for His Sheep from everlasting, according to the agreement in the Everlasting Covenant , when Christ became Surety !

Its dishonoring to God to despise and treat with contempt that which He See's as real and complete in His Mind, because it was not so in the minds of His creatures.
 
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Brightfame52

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@moonbeam

At what point was Adam and Eve considered sinners and so under condemnation for their sin?

The elect are eternally Justified from the condemnation they incurred here Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 
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Brightfame52

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Continuing with Justification from Everlasting !

As we should consider the Gospel Truth of Eternal Justification, we Look at Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

For it cannot be honestly denied that God the Father did view the Chosen as In Christ before the Foundation of the World, for they were Loved in Him Before the foundation of the world Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Now, If God the Father did view them in Christ before the foundation, did He view them in a state of condemnation or Justification ?
We dare not conclude condemnation because that is impossible for those which be in Christ Jesus Rom 8:1, So it must be Justified, for also He did not lay their sins to their charge in Adam Rom 8:33-34; 2 Cor 5:19. The conclusion is obvious, they were Justified before the foundation of the world ! 2
 
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moonbeam

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The elect are eternally Justified from the condemnation they incurred here Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
The query I raised regards - At what point was Adam and Eve considered sinners and so under condemnation for their sin?

Was intended to bring attention to what seems somewhat of a logical incongruence... in that previously you have stated that - "His will to justify them is the justification of them."

The result being that all the elect are, necessarily, declared not guilty (legally) from their birth onwards until death regardless of any lack of conformity to Gods law.

In addition, and as a mechanism of reinforcement, you further contend that - “God’s elect can not have anything laid to their charge for God has justified them.”

In the case of Adam (the son of God) and equally applicable to Eve (being taken out of Adam) - They were innocent (without guilt) in the garden where they walked with God, prior to their sin and judgement (condemnation).

That Adam (and Eve) are numbered amongst the elect and so justified is not disputed.

How do you account for the charge of sin being laid against Adam and Eve in the garden if they were eternally justified?
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Brightfame52

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@moonbeam

The query I raised regards - At what point was Adam and Eve considered sinners and so under condemnation for their sin?

Maybe you not paying attention Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

How do you account for the charge of sin being laid against Adam and Eve in the garden if they were eternally justified?

You havent paid attention to nothing I have posted already, the condemnation incurred by Adam and eve was charged to Christ, Christ was their surety before they sinned. When was Adams transgression and men in him become Christs Suretyship responsibility ?
 
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moonbeam

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Maybe you not paying attention Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Your response is wholly inadequate regards addressing the question... Why don't you try again.

How do you account for the charge of sin being laid against Adam and Eve in the garden if they were eternally justified?
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moonbeam

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You havent paid attention to nothing I have posted already, the condemnation incurred by Adam and eve was charged to Christ, Christ was their surety before they sinned. When was Adams transgression and men in him become Christs Suretyship responsibility ?
According to you Adam was justified before he was born.

Yet God charged Adam with sin resulting in condemnation.

The God who justified Adam (in his eternal purpose) then charged Adam with sin.
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Brightfame52

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Your response is wholly inadequate regards addressing the question... Why don't you try again.

How do you account for the charge of sin being laid against Adam and Eve in the garden if they were eternally justified?
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Your comprehension is inadequate.
 
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Brightfame52

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According to you Adam was justified before he was born.

Yet God charged Adam with sin resulting in condemnation.

The God who justified Adam (in his eternal purpose) then charged Adam with sin.
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Yeah All Gods elect are eternally Justified before they are born, Christ was charged with their condemnation before they were born.
 
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moonbeam

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Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

If we are Elect, we are Justified.
Its no such thing as being God's Elect and not Justified by Him. Now I dare not hold back the idea that at the same date God considered us His Elect, its the same date He Justified us, and is the same date the challenge goes forth " Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's Elect" Shall God who chose them and Justified them lay anything to their charge ? Shall God who Loved them with an everlasting Love lay any charge to them ? I say No ! How long have they been God's Elect ? It was before they were born according to the principle set forth in Romans 9:11

In the specific case of Adam (and Eve) in their creation... and recognising that the entire human race is in his loins.

It is evident that Adam was in a state of innocence at this time being sinless, this is evidenced by the fact that Adam walked and communed with God in the Garden.

In this state of innocence there is no sin to condemn, therefore no declaration of justification is required (to be in right standing with God) as evidenced by God Himself communing with Adam and Eve (this being the orthodox reformed doctrine)

However in the aberrant fallacy of eternal justification which you advocate, you state that the elect are justified from birth (creation) because they have the legal status of being without guilt (Christ being their surety) - Furthermore you utilise Romans 8:33 to demonstrate that no legal charge can be brought against the elect by Satan the accuser, or any other entity, because it is God who has justified (through the suretyship of Christ)

However it is patently obvious that it is God Himself who lays the charge of sin and resulting condemnation on both Adam and Eve (and the entire human race in his loins).

There is an obvious incongruence evident in the specific example of Adam and Eve regards the fallacy of eternal justification that the present advocate Brightframe52 has yet to explain in a digestible and coherent manner.

PS - repeating the same sentences over and over again is wholly inadequate.
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fhansen

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Exactly what is the timing of Justification ? When is one for whom Christ died Justified before God ? John Gill gives reasons why he believes that the saint is Justified before God, from everlasting. I concur with his sentiment and here's why, and of course in ursuit it is reasonably concluded why Justification before God is before Faith:

1. Faith is not the cause, but the fruit and effect of justification. The reason why we are justified, is not because we have faith; but the reason why we have faith is because we are justified. Was there no such blessing of grace as justification of life provided for the sons of men, there would be no such thing as faith in Christ bestowed upon them, nor, indeed, would there be any use for it; and though it is provided, yet since not for all men, therefore all men have not faith. The reason why some do not believe, is, because they are not of Christ's sheep; (John 10:26) they never were chosen in him, nor justified by him, but are justly left in their sins, and so to condemnation; the reason why others do believe, is, because they are ordained to eternal life, (Acts 13:48) have a justifying righteousness provided for them, and are justified by it, and shall never enter into condemnation and, in asserting this, I say no more than what Dr. Twisse, the famous Prolocutor to the Assembly of Divines, has said before me. His words are these: "Before faith the righteousness of Christ was ours, being in the intention of God the Father, and Christ the Mediator, wrought out for us; and, because wrought out for us, therefore God, in his own time, gives us grace of every kind, and among others, faith itself, and, at last, the crown of heavenly glory." And, a little after, he says: "Before faith and repentance the righteousness of Christ is applied unto us; since it is on the account of that, that we obtain efficacious grace, to believe in Christ and repent." Likewise the judicious Pemble writes to the same effect, when, observing a two-fold justification, he says, the one is "In foro divino, in God's sight, and this goes before all our sanctification; for even whilst the elect are unconverted, they are then actually justified, and freed from all sin, by the death of Christ, and God so esteems of them as free, and, having accepted of that satisfaction, is actually reconciled to them. By this justification, we are freed from the guilt of our sins; and because that is done away, God, in due time, proceeds to give us the grace of sanctification, to free from sin's corruption still inherent in our persons." The other is, "In foro conscientiae, in their own sense, which is but the revelation and certain declaration of God's former secret act of accepting Christ's righteousness to our justification." And Maccovius says, "That because that God justifies us, therefore, he gives us faith, and other spiritual gifts." Now, if justification is the cause, and faith the effect; then, as every cause is before its effect, and every effect follows its own cause, justification must be before faith, and faith must follow justification.
I know it's just speculation and opinion, but do you think that John Gill has necessarily been justified? I guess we'll only know such things for sure in the next life.
 
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Brightfame52

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I have some points derived from scripture Truth, why all those Christ died for are Justified from Eternity, from their sin in adam and consequently all sin following. I have listed six reasons, and I am indebted to God through one John Brine from his treatise on Eternal Justification.

Point #1 Justification is an immanent, and consequently an eternal act. This argument must be allowed conclusive, unless it can be proved that Justification is a transient act.

What is meant by an immanent act ? Well the word itself means:


remaining within; indwelling; inherent.

2.
Philosophy . (of a mental act) taking place within the mind of the subject and having no effect outside of it. Compare transeunt.

3.
Theology . (of the Deity) indwelling the universe, time, etc. Compare transcendent ( def. 3 ) .

It means it's a inward act of God's reckoning. Its a Judgment of God based on nothing outside of Him, and so such a act would be Eternal simply because God is Eternal Deut 33:7

The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

This is why David could write regarding God's Mercy Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

You see that ? The mercy of the Lord is from Everlasting to Everlasting, to who ? Those who fear Him or the Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

An Immanent Act of God is different from an transeunt act of God which produces effects outside of God ! An example of that would be Creation, it's accomplishment is outside of God and by His Power !3
 
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Brightfame52

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@moonbeam
In this state of innocence there is no sin to condemn,

But that would change when they sinned Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 
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moonbeam

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But that would change when they sinned Rom 5:18

"But that would change when they sinned"

Exactly…

The period between the event of Adam (and Eves) creation and that event “when” they sinned is somewhat of an incongruence - in that it does not fit well - in fact it does not fit at all - with how you are describing the application of the imputation of Christs righteousness (justification) to the elect prior to the creation of that domain wherein other entities exist i.e. Adam and Eve and every other being that do not posses life in and off themselves (the temporal domain).

It is an acknowledged fact that Adam and Eve are elect of God in orthodox reformed theology.

This is also acknowledged among the advocates of the fallacy of eternal justification.

Though... in regards eternal justification - therefore, to be internally and logically congruent (coinciding exactly when superimposed) Adam and Eve, specifically, have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, prior to their creation, by God (The Father)

So once again… How do you account for God charging Adam and Eve with sin?
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