Eternal Hell Justified (part 2)

[createdtoworship]

I'm glad to hear you don't do that to your wife and kids. I never did. Nor do I pose such inquiries to my friends or co-workers outside of here. I try to only pose such theological questions/responses, which have the potential of raising discord here, in the CF arena Specifically, in the arena designed for such debate.

well all I am saying is that when debate is coming from a bitter heart, it tends to inflame, insult, mock, and just be overall rude. I am actually a very sensitive person. And sometimes bitterness comes out in my posts, I realize if I am to portray Christ, I can't be hating on people. This means stopping the debate tactics that are not like Christ. But it also means I cannot debate most skeptics, simply because normally speaking the skeptics I have encountered are not very happy people. Some may be happy. But the ones who come here to try to convince innocent believers that there is no God, well they probably aren't happy with their lives. I mean I wouldn't be. If I was living that sort of life, I would be chronically depressed. I mean if people are happy and I want to make them miserable like myself, that is only a sign of inward depression. But I could be 100 percent wrong on that, that is just how I would feel doing the same thing.

 

[createdtoworship]

Thanks for the advice and opinions. Maybe you might want to try a different 'sand box?'



I seem to remember you blocking a few, whom were non-believers, when you posted in your thread 'argument for God's existence.' Not just me. I guess we all are arrogant, and not open to suggestion



When did I ever claim 'absolute' truth? Not even scientists can claim as such, in spite of gravitational theory, cell theory, germ theory of disease, etc etc etc....

But to attempt to equivocate faith, as perfectly equal in an unfalsifiable claim, like hell, verses scientific theory, for instance, appears to present intellectually dishonesty, if you want (my) opinion. You appear to now be attempting to muddy the waters a bit.

(i.e.) My faith in unicorns is [equal] to my faith in the use of my car brakes at the next stop light.



I'm glad to hear you don't do that to your wife and kids. I never did. Nor do I pose such inquiries to my friends or co-workers outside of here. I try to only pose such theological questions/responses, which have the potential of raising discord here, in the CF arena Specifically, in the arena designed for such debate.



???? Please see above, regarding 'faith'.

You claim absolute proof when you say that faith in unicorns and faith in science is different. But they are both unverified. You have faith that people are honest when typing up their peer reviews, that they did not let their worldview, religion, or bitterness against God's that don't exist deter their facts. You have faith in the peers that reviewed said article that they too were both honest and unbiased. Yes sir science is no more proven than unicorns.

 

[cvanwey]

Yes sir science is no more proven than unicorns.

And it's statements like this which compel me to just move on

 

[createdtoworship]

And it's statements like this which compel me to just move on

You seem that you feel the need to convince believers that their belief in God is irrational, when not a single scientific fact can be proven. You tried by saying the earth was round, remember? Only to fail. I just think its one of the most hypocritical ideas that I have seen. And the arrogance coming from the skeptic side is incredible relating to all of this. Then someone asks to prove atheism. Do you know what they say? I didn't make any positive statements that need proof. That is what they say. So instead of addressing the problem of what "proof" is, they run away from the challenge. One side can believe what ever they want without evidence and the other side doesn't have to. I am sorry, but I just feel sorry for people that have to live with that sort of intellectual dishonesty, that has to take a toll emotionally on them. But anyway, thank you for posting your opinions, I wish you could post nicer as we could have longer debates. Even in this last post, you posted less....sure. But the the words themselves were arrogant, and belittling to other users. It's like you have a hard time being nice, or maybe you don't know or comprehend what being nice is. I certainly can associate. When I don't like someone, it comes out in how I treat them. Well again, just read the last post I posted. I feel that you may find more fulfillment in a forum that actually believes what you believe, instead of fighting all day with people you don't know about God (that you don't believe in).

 

[BigV]

Do atheists ever read the Bible they are trying to destroy?
Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

It doesn't matter what the Bible says, it matters how it's interpreted. Come on, I thought this was Christianity 101!

I was asking the Christian poster's interpretation on whether God who sends dead babies to hell is just. What's wrong with providing a direct response? Afraid of giving your God too much glory?

 

[createdtoworship]

It doesn't matter what the Bible says, it matters how it's interpreted. Come on, I thought this was Christianity 101!

I was asking the Christian poster's interpretation on whether God who sends dead babies to hell is just. What's wrong with providing a direct response? Afraid of giving your God too much glory?

Sir there is nothing even controversial about God sending babies to hell. Children are born sinners. Just ask literally any single new born parent. This is simply an appeal to emotion. Emotions are raised when people talk about killing babies, so this supports your claim that God is unjust. But appeals to emotion are invalid because they are supporting emotion and not logic to form their conclusions. God loves children and He may exempt them from accountability according to some scholars. But I don't see alot of evidence for that. I think if there is an age of accountability God does not want us focusing on it. Because ultimately they will be held accountable for every bad thought or deed. Sir if you were judged by the ten commandments when you die, would you be guilty or innocent? Have you looked at a woman with lust, that is adultery, have you ever said O-M-G or other curse word to use God's name as a curse word, that is blasphemy and that is only two of the ten commandments.

 

[Skreeper]

Sir there is nothing even controversial about God sending babies to hell. Children are born sinners. Just ask literally any single new born parent. This is simply an appeal to emotion. Emotions are raised when people talk about killing babies, so this supports your claim that God is unjust. But appeals to emotion are invalid because they are supporting emotion and not logic to form their conclusions. God loves children and He may exempt them from accountability according to some scholars. But I don't see alot of evidence for that. I think if there is an age of accountability God does not want us focusing on it. Because ultimately they will be held accountable for every bad thought or deed. Sir if you were judged by the ten commandments when you die, would you be guilty or innocent? Have you looked at a woman with lust, that is adultery, have you ever said O-M-G or other curse word to use God's name as a curse word, that is blasphemy and that is only two of the ten commandments.

Might as well kill all new-born to save them from reaching the age of accountability.

 

[createdtoworship]

Might as well kill all new-born to save them from reaching the age of accountability.

Well I mentioned above, how I believe this would be detrimental for the experience and quality of heaven being enjoyed.

please read this post to be caught up. If you have questions just reply to it...
Eternal Hell Justified (part 2)

that is only one theory, the other theory is that babies just like other humans are judged for their actions. And this could very well be the case, but I don't think so. I feel the heart of God is to allow the children into heaven freely. They don't need to get in via the typical method, however their experience will be limited.

 

[Skreeper]

Well I mentioned above, how I believe this would be detrimental for the experience and quality of heaven being enjoyed.

please read this post to be caught up. If you have questions just reply to it...
Eternal Hell Justified (part 2)

that is only one theory, the other theory is that babies just like other humans are judged for their actions. And this could very well be the case, but I don't think so. I feel the heart of God is to allow the children into heaven freely. They don't need to get in via the typical method, however their experience will be limited.

What is better in your opinion?

A) A baby/child with 'limited experience' being in heaven

B) An adult with 'full experience' in hell because he is an atheist or follower of another religion.

If I had been given the option to choose to be born or not, then I definitely would have preferred to never been born or death by abortion. But maybe that's just me.

 

[createdtoworship]

What is better in your opinion?

A) A baby/child with 'limited experience' being in heaven

B) An adult with 'full experience' in hell because he is an atheist or follower of another religion.

If I had been given the option to choose to be born or not, then I definitely would have preferred to never been born or death by abortion. But maybe that's just me.

absolutely correct. The Bible says regarding Judas that "it would have been better that he was never born, than to betray the son of man."

 

[Rodan6]

God is the absolute of love and logic. There is no logical purpose in the eternal torment of individuals. It is another spiritual law that "nothing of value is ever lost". When a person makes progressive choices in life, spiritual building blocks are created and maintained. These blocks are the essence of what survives after our physical deaths. An individual that is consumed with selfishness fails to survive physical death--there is nothing to remain of survival value. The notion that eternal torment provides a fear stimulus to promote better life choices is misguided. Fear in humans was useful to promote human survival, but always fear has impeded spiritual growth on our world.

 

[createdtoworship]

God is the absolute of love and logic. There is no logical purpose in the eternal torment of individuals. It is another spiritual law that "nothing of value is ever lost". When a person makes progressive choices in life, spiritual building blocks are created and maintained. These blocks are the essence of what survives after our physical deaths. An individual that is consumed with selfishness fails to survive physical death--there is nothing to remain of survival value. The notion that eternal torment provides a fear stimulus to promote better life choices is misguided. Fear in humans was useful to promote human survival, but always fear has impeded spiritual growth on our world.

I notice you didn't quote any verses regarding supporting this post, and that is because it's not really found in scripture. God does not make sense to me all the time, I don't agree with His tactics all the time. But I found out that I usually agree with Him in the long run and He is typically correct immediately or eventually on an issue even though it does not make sense to me. You just have to wait and see. God is love, that is true. God is logic that is true (and I made a logical case for hell in post one). And God is also Just.

 

[FireDragon76]

Heaven and Hell predate Christianity. You can find similar concepts in many ancient state religions, like the religion of Egypt, Greek or Roman mythology, or in Hinduism. Most likely, these had their origins in copper and bronze age societies that found the belief useful to justify the existing order of the state, so it was promoted.

In many tribal cultures, their beliefs do not focus on otherworldly rewards as much, as their rational for eusocial behavior is entirely different. They fear getting caught for wrongdoing, and given that there is a great deal of organic solidarity in close-knit groups, that is an understandable fear. In a society of hundreds of thousands of individuals, on the other hand, people may not know each other and the idea of otherworldly reward and punishment helps create a feeling of trust that would otherwise be difficult.

 

[Rodan6]

I agree with FireDragon's thoughtful analysis. It makes a lot of sense that primitive people believed in such things. It's very important to make an effort to understand why people believed things as they did in ancient times.

it's also important to understand that God expects more from us in our modern light. Ancient people attributed many evil deeds to God and had good reasons to think the way they did. People died suddenly for a variety of medical reasons and answers were demanded of religious leadership. Crops failed, floods and other natural disasters required spiritual justification. "Why is God angry?". Is it reasonable that primitive people would somehow come to more enlightened spiritual understandings when they lived in an age without literacy or even rudimentary scientific knowledge?

While God is eternal and has NEVER changed, certainly we can see that man's view of God has evolved steadily over time. Early people could not understand or respect any representation other than a jealous or angry God. But the Son has since revealed to us that God is in reality a loving Father in Heaven. Today, we live in an age of information. Fantastic knowledge of God's universe has been uncovered because of the scientist's dedicated adherence to their "scientific method". We have learned that knowledge/revelations should not be feared and that God will reveal all things to us when we are ready to receive the knowledge we seek. "To he who has, more shall be given". Yes, it is very clear that God expects much, much, much more from us.....

 

[createdtoworship]

Heaven and Hell predate Christianity. You can find similar concepts in many ancient state religions, like the religion of Egypt, Greek or Roman mythology, or in Hinduism. Most likely, these had their origins in copper and bronze age societies that found the belief useful to justify the existing order of the state, so it was promoted.

In many tribal cultures, their beliefs do not focus on otherworldly rewards as much, as their rational for eusocial behavior is entirely different. They fear getting caught for wrongdoing, and given that there is a great deal of organic solidarity in close-knit groups, that is an understandable fear. In a society of hundreds of thousands of individuals, on the other hand, people may not know each other and the idea of otherworldly reward and punishment helps create a feeling of trust that would otherwise be difficult.

I agree with FireDragon's thoughtful analysis. It makes a lot of sense that primitive people believed in such things. It's very important to make an effort to understand why people believed things as they did in ancient times.

it's also important to understand that God expects more from us in our modern light. Ancient people attributed many evil deeds to God and had good reasons to think the way they did. People died suddenly for a variety of medical reasons and answers were demanded of religious leadership. Crops failed, floods and other natural disasters required spiritual justification. "Why is God angry?". Is it reasonable that primitive people would somehow come to more enlightened spiritual understandings when they lived in an age without literacy or even rudimentary scientific knowledge?

While God is eternal and has NEVER changed, certainly we can see that man's view of God has evolved steadily over time. Early people could not understand or respect any representation other than a jealous or angry God. But the Son has since revealed to us that God is in reality a loving Father in Heaven. Today, we live in an age of information. Fantastic knowledge of God's universe has been uncovered because of the scientist's dedicated adherence to their "scientific method". We have learned that knowledge/revelations should not be feared and that God will reveal all things to us when we are ready to receive the knowledge we seek. "To he who has, more shall be given". Yes, it is very clear that God expects much, much, much more from us.....

wrong ideas are rarely 100 percent wrong. Many of the most deceiving principles were mostly correct and a little bit wrong. But it was the little bit wrong that was VERY wrong. Hitler used the church to promote his agenda. Evolution was used throughout history to kill various races due to purging and survival of the fittest. But in this case, principles of heaven and hell are found in many cultures. But christians believe ancient hebrew to be the oldest religion as it would go back to adam and eve themselves. We don't have manuscripts dating back that far, as manuscripts typically eroded and decomposed. But there was a marble monument that stood for hundreds of years in the middle east, set up in ancient times, chiseled from early scholars on how noah and his sons populated and spread out, each son populating and becoming kings of different areas. All this is documented from berosus's ancient writings. Ancient jews has views of eternal hell for thousands of years. there is a great book that I have it's called "Jewish views of the afterlife." Again we don't have manuscripts that predate other ancient Mediterranean documents, but in many of those ancient documents people in the Bible are mentioned as contemporaries. There are many evidences in ancient Egypt for early hebrews (in the instance of the exodus for example, the reason the hebrews were in egypt was because of their forefather joseph was an Egyptian prince and built huge grain silohs that saved egypt. I forgot the egyptian name for joseph, but there are many video's out about it. One video I like is "patterns of evidence." It's a good one that is for sale on amazon. The point is that even though their are gaps in our hebrew archaeology going back to adam and eve, and even though other religions existed in ancient times, if you search those historical documents of the middle east, you almost always can find a hebrew king, or city or something that shows that hebrews already existed.

 

[Rodan6]

Yes. Is it not wonderful that we live at a time where so much research is available to us? I remember that there was once a great library in the ancient world at Alexandria. Tragically, the library was destroyed in a fire. I often think of what amazing works were lost to us forever.

 

[Rodan6]

I hope and pray that that scholars and archeologists are able to save as many of these wonderful treasures as possible. The on-going conflicts in the Middle East have caused great damage and loss.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes. Is it not wonderful that we live at a time where so much research is available to us? I remember that there was once a great library in the ancient world at Alexandria. Tragically, the library was destroyed in a fire. I often think of what amazing works were lost to us forever.

I hope and pray that that scholars and archeologists are able to save as many of these wonderful treasures as possible. The on-going conflicts in the Middle East have caused great damage and loss.

islamic militaries typically destroy ancient Jewish documents when they see them. And unfortunately they control most of the land where this stuff happened. So if and when we find stuff on digs, many times we have to appeal to palestinian governments for access and permission to take it out. Many times they are denied.

 

[createdtoworship]

Heaven and Hell predate Christianity. You can find similar concepts in many ancient state religions, like the religion of Egypt, Greek or Roman mythology, or in Hinduism. Most likely, these had their origins in copper and bronze age societies that found the belief useful to justify the existing order of the state, so it was promoted.

In many tribal cultures, their beliefs do not focus on otherworldly rewards as much, as their rational for eusocial behavior is entirely different. They fear getting caught for wrongdoing, and given that there is a great deal of organic solidarity in close-knit groups, that is an understandable fear. In a society of hundreds of thousands of individuals, on the other hand, people may not know each other and the idea of otherworldly reward and punishment helps create a feeling of trust that would otherwise be difficult.

I agree with FireDragon's thoughtful analysis. It makes a lot of sense that primitive people believed in such things. It's very important to make an effort to understand why people believed things as they did in ancient times.

it's also important to understand that God expects more from us in our modern light. Ancient people attributed many evil deeds to God and had good reasons to think the way they did. People died suddenly for a variety of medical reasons and answers were demanded of religious leadership. Crops failed, floods and other natural disasters required spiritual justification. "Why is God angry?". Is it reasonable that primitive people would somehow come to more enlightened spiritual understandings when they lived in an age without literacy or even rudimentary scientific knowledge?

While God is eternal and has NEVER changed, certainly we can see that man's view of God has evolved steadily over time. Early people could not understand or respect any representation other than a jealous or angry God. But the Son has since revealed to us that God is in reality a loving Father in Heaven. Today, we live in an age of information. Fantastic knowledge of God's universe has been uncovered because of the scientist's dedicated adherence to their "scientific method". We have learned that knowledge/revelations should not be feared and that God will reveal all things to us when we are ready to receive the knowledge we seek. "To he who has, more shall be given". Yes, it is very clear that God expects much, much, much more from us.....

I like this series he has, he talks a little bit about our topic here today:

here is the whole playlist:

Can we trust the Bible? - YouTube

 

[FireDragon76]

wrong ideas are rarely 100 percent wrong. Many of the most deceiving principles were mostly correct and a little bit wrong. But it was the little bit wrong that was VERY wrong. Hitler used the church to promote his agenda. Evolution was used throughout history to kill various races due to purging and survival of the fittest. But in this case, principles of heaven and hell are found in many cultures. But christians believe ancient hebrew to be the oldest religion as it would go back to adam and eve themselves. We don't have manuscripts dating back that far, as manuscripts typically eroded and decomposed. But there was a marble monument that stood for hundreds of years in the middle east, set up in ancient times, chiseled from early scholars on how noah and his sons populated and spread out, each son populating and becoming kings of different areas. All this is documented from berosus's ancient writings. Ancient jews has views of eternal hell for thousands of years. there is a great book that I have it's called "Jewish views of the afterlife." Again we don't have manuscripts that predate other ancient Mediterranean documents, but in many of those ancient documents people in the Bible are mentioned as contemporaries. There are many evidences in ancient Egypt for early hebrews (in the instance of the exodus for example, the reason the hebrews were in egypt was because of their forefather joseph was an Egyptian prince and built huge grain silohs that saved egypt. I forgot the egyptian name for joseph, but there are many video's out about it. One video I like is "patterns of evidence." It's a good one that is for sale on amazon. The point is that even though their are gaps in our hebrew archaeology going back to adam and eve, and even though other religions existed in ancient times, if you search those historical documents of the middle east, you almost always can find a hebrew king, or city or something that shows that hebrews already existed.

Jews don't believe in eternal hell. Souls in Gehenna are eventually released after they have made satisfaction for their wrongdoing.