Eternal Hell Justified (part 2)

[2PhiloVoid]

the hell described by the parable of lazerus and the rich man have all of the same similarities of a lake burning with fire. Fire regardless of it's locality will still burn and hurt you. That is why most don't differentiate the two, and both are called the same term "hell" typically throughout history of the church, including the church fathers.

Yes, I understand that, and you and I have already briefly argued over that kind of thing long ago, something I won't (and can't) do with you here.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, consider that God required capital punishment for all sorts of offenses. For instance, there is a case of a man gathering sticks on a Saturday, in Numbers 15, who was killed for his offense.

So, not only is God resorting to killing for trivial offenses, he is also punishing people by torture for all eternity! That trumps all of the evil dictators that humanity has ever known. There, God is in a class by himself.

can you quote the specific verse in numbers 15? I would like to look at it. As far as torturing, again Hell is logically a coherent punishment based on that sheer number of crimes commited. over 30,000 for a moral person, more likely there is over 100,000 or a million sins in a typical life time. And this would not be punished by a mere prison. The punishment in this macro does not fit the crime.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes, I understand that, and you and I have already briefly argued over that kind of thing long ago, something I won't (and can't) do with you here.

In the OP I mention the dangers of making spiritual allegory as a norm for Biblical interpretation. If God was to make an instruction manual for any reason, why make it not straight forward, why use allegory at all? Unless it's for poetic reason or some other exception to the rule. It just does not make sense for God to confuse us.

 

[BigV]

can you quote the specific verse in numbers 15? I would like to look at it.

Start at verse 32.

As far as torturing, again Hell is logically a coherent punishment based on that sheer number of crimes commited.

What sin deserves an eternal conscious torment? For eternity, mind you.

Think about it. Let's imagine you are given a button, and as long as you are pressing it, you are causing Hitler to suffer. To stop the suffering, you need to release the button. How long do you keep the button? After several weeks? Months? years? Imagine also having a window, where you can observe the torture you are inflicting on Hitler.

I can appreciate the fact that the first few weeks/months may be pleasant. You are giving Hitler his due, for the suffering he inflicted on millions of other people! But then the suffering continues. It has now been months and even years. And you are still pressing the button. At what point do you stop?

If you never stop, and you feel justified in inflicting torture, then what does that make you? The most loving human being?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In the OP I mention the dangers of making spiritual allegory as a norm for Biblical interpretation. If God was to make an instruction manual for any reason, why make it not straight forward, why use allegory at all? Unless it's for poetic reason or some other exception to the rule. It just does not make sense for God to confuse us.

Well, if the book of Revelation ISN'T figurative in its language, its use of symbolism, or allegorical in nature to at least some extent, then I guess we can expect a real-life version of something along the lines of a GODZILLA movie to come to life ... and that doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, especially when I put my hermeneutical reading glasses on ...

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, if the book of Revelation ISN'T figurative in its language, its use of symbolism, or allegorical in nature to at least some extent, then I guess we can expect a real-life version of something along the lines of a GODZILLA movie to come to life ... and that doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever, especially when I put my hermeneutical reading glasses on ...

I personally don't think revelation is allegorical, at least not as a whole. There are some symbols used, but they are easily decoded when using other books as the key to the code. That type of symbolism is meant to hide truth. The parts of the Bible that speak of the gospel, and prophecy and history those are in plain truths, but revelation as well as some of the parables were meant to be revealed to veterans of the faith. Some truths of scripture are so deep that to even mention them is to be ridiculed on the open forums. These are called the meat of scripture, versus the milk of scripture. But overall, the Bible is literal. And even in allegorical books, like revelation, it's still 95% literal, with some symbols. It's just that the symbols are more frequent.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I personally don't think revelation is allegorical, at least not as a whole. There are some symbols used, but they are easily decoded when using other books as the key to the code.

If it's so easy to decode, then everyone would know which 'other' books to reference and most Christians would be on the same interpretive frequency as to which form of Eschatology to affirm and uphold. But, we don't find that to be the case with the book of Revelation, now do we?

That type of symbolism is meant to hide truth. The parts of the Bible that speak of the gospel, and prophecy and history those are in plain truths, but revelation as well as some of the parables were meant to be revealed to veterans of the faith. Some truths of scripture are so deep that to even mention them is to be ridiculed on the open forums. These are called the meat of scripture, versus the milk of scripture. But overall, the Bible is literal. And even in allegorical books, like revelation, it's still 95% literal, with some symbols. It's just that the symbols are more frequent.

Yes, but in the book of Revelation, it is there and only there in the biblical literature that we find the concept of Hades (i.e. Hell) and Death both represented as 'entities' who are tossed into an "Undying" Lake of Fire-----------in a book that is primarily symbolic and figurative (Jewishly so, even if borrowing Grecian forms!) in its literary and conceptual structure.

With that said, I'm going to stop here and refrain from any further comment on this thread of yours since as an Annihilationist, and even though I'm one who essentially thinks that 'Hades' may be an actual place, albeit ending in the future, I don't want to transgress the rules.

But dear brother, please feel free to have the last word.

 

[createdtoworship]

Start at verse 32.

It was a well known law that working on the sabbath was a violation of the law, the man picking up sticks knew it, and was in subordination. Again if God make a human being, literally gives them life, He can take that life away.

What sin deserves an eternal conscious torment? For eternity, mind you.

Think about it. Let's imagine you are given a button, and as long as you are pressing it, you are causing Hitler to suffer. To stop the suffering, you need to release the button. How long do you keep the button? After several weeks? Months? years? Imagine also having a window, where you can observe the torture you are inflicting on Hitler.

let me go ahead and repost from post one, since we are repeating. I hope you don't mind. hat I see that has not been refuted is this one: "why would God send someone to infinite hell, for finite sins?" When a skeptic asks this question they assume that they have won. Because most of the time they do win. But not this time. See our soul is spirit. Not physical. So without mass according to the theory of relativity, there is no time. So our souls are eternal by default according to known science, that is not even incorporating meta physics at that point. So technically all actions are performed by our eternal souls. Every hate filled word, every fear, every lust. It's all stamped in eternity. Because sin itself, is eternal, it must be punished eternally. Eternal hell is not a long time. It's outside of time and space. That is why I don't think the geocentric hell is really hell. Some guys believe hell is in the core of the earth. I don't think we need a physical molten fire at all, hell will be spiritually empowered. It could in fact be enflamed by God's glory itself upon sin. We don't know. That is the first part of the logical case for hell, and the strongest. The second part of this is to describe why would God send us to hell in general, why not just a prison or something else?
I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself.
see if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell.
but my logical case for eternal hell is not based on one sin. My logical case for eternal hell is that God, who can read our thoughts and minds, and also who is perfect, can read our wickedness, and cannot forget every detail of every sin, so in an average lifetime, that is thirty thousand sins for an extremely moral person who only sins once a day. IF you do the math, 365 times eighty years, is a little under thirty thousand sins. So God is reminded of thirty thousand times you were angry, hated, lusted, stole from work, cheated on taxes, etc, etc. And when you look at the holiness of God, every time you are angry that is like murder, and every time you lusted after someone on the internet, that was like adultery and fornication. So at the end of the day, thirty thousand mortal sins creates a situation where a physical prison does not meet up with the amount of sin. If a murderer is killed for one act of committing a serial murder (under capital punishment laws,) then thirty thousand angry thoughts, of murder is not paid for by a single death. It must be paid for by eternal misery.
At this point you may be wondering how to escape from Hell...
Most people think they are relatively good people who will go to heaven one day. I just have a few questions for that person.
How many lies have you told in your whole life? (what do they call someone who lies?) -a liar
Have you ever said [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] on social media, or used God's name as a curse word? (the Bible calls that Blasphemy)
Have you ever stolen anything (regardless of value) in your whole life? (what do they call people who steal?) -Thieves
Have you ever looked with lust upon someone? (the Bible calls that adultery)
now by your own admission, you are a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulteror at heart. And that is only four of the ten commandments. Now if God judges you by the ten commandments when you die, will you get heaven or hell? (most of us would say Hell).
So does that concern you? It concerns me.
I love you and I don't want anyone to go to hell.
In order to be saved one must do two things. Repent of any known sin, and trust in the Finished work of Christ.
If you were in court for a speeding ticket and they condemned you to prison and I stepped in and paid the fine, you would get off free.
That is what Jesus did on the cross, HE paid the fine for the world. Now all they have to do is endorse the check, but most won't.
because in order to endorse that check, they must repent and trust in Christ.
people would rather just believe in Jesus existence and hope they get to heaven.
James says even the devils believe, so what does that make us if we do the same?
we must repent, it's not an option.
But it's worth it.
(it does not mean we are perfect, but repentance becomes a tool we use as christians the rest of our lives)
If we believe in Jesus but we don't repent, we lack the one tool that helps us grow to be more like God later.
and heaven and eternal life, misses it's true meaning which is to be more loving of our enemies, our neighbors and God.
I know this is a heavy message,
but if you are a skeptic and you are not christian, yet you still do not believe in hell at all, watch this video it's a cardiologist interviewing people who had near death experiences and came back from hell itself....

I can appreciate the fact that the first few weeks/months may be pleasant. You are giving Hitler his due, for the suffering he inflicted on millions of other people! But then the suffering continues. It has now been months and even years. And you are still pressing the button. At what point do you stop?

If you never stop, and you feel justified in inflicting torture, then what does that make you? The most loving human being?

Yes this is a common misunderstanding of hell, I personally think "everlasting" is not a great translation, a better translation would be "eternal."

they are synonymous, yes but one deals with time, and lots of it, while the other is outside of time.
see you won't be in hell for a long time. There will be no time. Time will literally not be applied. However they may be a simulation of time, I really don't know. But I don't think for example you will be there ten thousand years for a hundred years of sin. But granted that would not be unfair. One double murder can give you a hundred years in prison, now take 30,000 angry thoughts and add up the years. So yes, even if it were in time, It would do it justice. Simply because we did the wrong thing 30,000 times, willfully. So that would be a contempt of court. And punished by the most cruel, harshest possible punishment you could gather. I like this idea, because it keeps people from sinning due to the threat of eternal hell fire. It has been used for a thousand years as a sin deterrent. And much of the blessings of the world came from fire ridden christians.

 

[BigV]

Again if God make a human being, literally gives them life, He can take that life away.

Literally, a parent gives life to a child. You know this is true by a simple experiment. Just have a devout Christian woman, who is virgin, ask God to give her a child and I guarantee you that nothing will happen, without either natural or artificial insemination.

And, secondly, I want to ask you a question. Why is it that modern medicine doesn't accept the premise that God takes away life today?

If a devout believer hears the voice of God telling them to kill their children, we, as a society, don't just accept it, but place such people in mental institutions and place their children, if they are minors, in a protective custody.

Should we allow parents who hear God telling them to kill children to kill their children?
As you may know, from the Old Testament, asking people to kill their child IS something a God can ask, based on the story of Abraham and Isaac.

let me go ahead and repost from post one, since we are repeating.

I think you are one of the believers that there is absolutely nothing a God can do that would make him unjust. Therefore, you've ceded your reasoning capabilities to your religious dogma. That makes you a perfect religion follower (where you are just doing what you are told), but also someone who is very difficult to reason with.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It was a well known law that working on the sabbath was a violation of the law, the man picking up sticks knew it, and was in subordination. Again if God make a human being, literally gives them life, He can take that life away.


let me go ahead and repost from post one, since we are repeating. I hope you don't mind. hat I see that has not been refuted is this one: "why would God send someone to infinite hell, for finite sins?" When a skeptic asks this question they assume that they have won. Because most of the time they do win. But not this time. See our soul is spirit. Not physical.

You say it has not been refuted but you ignored my question when you posted this. You need to demonstrate that a soul exists before you can use it for any explanation you have. You have assumed a soul instead of demonstrating with sufficient evidence that it does exist.

 

[BigV]

It was a well known law that working on the sabbath was a violation of the law, the man picking up sticks knew it, and was in subordination

And then you need to prove that gathering sticks on a Saturday is working. This man may have had a job as a sheep herder. So, herding sheep would be work. But gathering sticks to warm a house? How is this work?

Now, let's say that any effort on a Saturday is work, then to avoid working, people must lay in their beds. Getting up to the bathroom is work too. It could take the same effort as gathering sticks! Do you see how nonsensical the 'no work on a Saturday' really is? It's such a crazy rule that even Jesus did not follow it.

Mark 2:
23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

How convenient!

 

[BigV]

You say it has not been refuted but you ignored my question when you posted this. You need to demonstrate that a soul exists before you can use it for any explanation you have. You have assumed a soul instead of demonstrating with sufficient evidence that it does exist.

I like your question about soul. I'd like to further expound on it, by asking what happens to a soul when a person sleeps or has general anesthesia? What happens to a soul when a person is in a coma?

It seems to me that a 'soul' just does whatever the body is doing. The two are the same.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I like your question about soul. I'd like to further expound on it, by asking what happens to a soul when a person sleeps or has general anesthesia? What happens to a soul when a person is in a coma?

It seems to me that a 'soul' just does whatever the body is doing. The two are the same.

In which case, use of the word soul is obviated.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In which case, use of the word soul is obviated.

To fully obviate the concept of a "soul," particularly in biblical terms, one would need to thoroughly vet out the historical and etymological development of the concept from its primitive origins(s) [plural] and then make a conclusion. And I don't think you, nor @BigV or @Clizby WampusCat have done that.

And then we'd have put the icing on the cake by "assuming" that psychological sciences have thoroughly and in utter proficiency, comprehensively discovered and identified the complete functions and essences of whatever is really going on in any one human brain. Somehow, I think this assumption, if we were to make it, would be a huge leap to take, even if I can say that I do very much like (and generally trust) science myself.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

To fully obviate the concept of a "soul," particularly in biblical terms, one would need to thoroughly vet out the historical and etymological development of the concept from its primitive origins(s) [plural] and then make a conclusion. And I don't think you, nor @BigV or @Clizby WampusCat have done that.

And then we'd have put the icing on the cake by "assuming" that psychological sciences have thoroughly and in utter comprehensively discovered and identified the complete functions and essences of whatever is really going on the any one human brain. Somehow, I think that is a huge leap to make, even if I do like science myself.

That is why I don't say we don't have one. There is no reasonable evidence to warrant belief in a soul. That's it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That is why I don't say we don't have one. There is no reasonable evidence to warrant belief in a soul. That's it.

Thank you for offering some clarity on the ambiguity that is often present in the thoughts of various, diverse atheists. It is appreciated.

 

[createdtoworship]

Literally, a parent gives life to a child. You know this is true by a simple experiment. Just have a devout Christian woman, who is virgin, ask God to give her a child and I guarantee you that nothing will happen, without either natural or artificial insemination.

A parent does not give life because a parent did not create the life they have, so how can they give it?

And, secondly, I want to ask you a question. Why is it that modern medicine doesn't accept the premise that God takes away life today?

If a devout believer hears the voice of God telling them to kill their children, we, as a society, don't just accept it, but place such people in mental institutions and place their children, if they are minors, in a protective custody.

are you saying that abortion is murder? If you believe so, then I can understand your concern.

Should we allow parents who hear God telling them to kill children to kill their children?
As you may know, from the Old Testament, asking people to kill their child IS something a God can ask, based on the story of Abraham and Isaac.

Islam kills their christian that were converted children all the time. Parents kill babies in the womb because they are a financial burden, or because they want more starbucks. So there is a lot of murder, in fact 2000 babies are aborted daily through no fault of their own but usually because of a parents finances. But lets address this question honestly. In the new testament, God does not speak to us anymore audibly. If we were in a day and age where God verbally spoke to us, then this would be a concern. But the Bible says that in the latter days God would speak through Christ. Hebrews 1:2. And they would never say to kill someone, as they are simply relaying prophetic or future messages, not exhortation. Here is a commentary confirming my interpretation of hebrews 1:2 that God no longer audibly speaks to men, but uses the word of God and the spiritual gifts. '1:2 The periodic, partial, and differential prophecies of the OT have now been overshadowed by God’s preeminent and final revelation in the person of His Son. The prophets were only channels through whom the divine word was communicated. The Lord Jesus Christ is Himself the final revelation of God to men. As John said, “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him” (John 1:18). The Lord Jesus said concerning Himself, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Christ speaks not only for God but as God."- Bible Knowledge commentary.

I think you are one of the believers that there is absolutely nothing a God can do that would make him unjust. Therefore, you've ceded your reasoning capabilities to your religious dogma. That makes you a perfect religion follower (where you are just doing what you are told), but also someone who is very difficult to reason with.

Well thank you. I think this is a compliment. I find it encouraging that my faith has caused my dogma to be consistent with my walk. I try to do that as best I can, I am not perfect by any means, and I have a long way to go. Just yesterday I was sitting on the couch and my heart was hard, I was thinking, I must be really smart. And I was just gloating, in cases like this, I have a document that I read that has all of my character flaws (mostly authored by my wife, just kidding). But if someone wants to be humble, just ask their wife what their flaws are. That should take care of that. So I jotted some of them down, it's about two pages now. And I was still hard hearted. At that point I just started praying my prayer list from the top, and I realized that prayer sometimes is the only way to stay soft hearted and pliable for God to use. As I was praying I realized that so many of my requests are out of my control. I cannot control the future economy, or the housing market, or how long our cars will last, or my job security, I cannot do any of that, I cannot control if I get in a car accident by someone elses fault. That is why it is so important to know where you are going when you die. If there is a hell, I do not want to go there. In fact there is a study called pascals wager. Basically it says it's better to live a good life, because it may help you get out of hell, than it would to not live a good life. Because you have two fold payment, living a good life has rewards of it's own, and plus getting eternal life.

 

[BigV]

A parent does not give life because a parent did not create the life they have, so how can they give it?

How can God give life, if he needs a sperm and an egg?

are you saying that abortion is murder? If you believe so, then I can understand your concern.

That's what you got from what I said previously? Okay then. Have a good one.

 

[createdtoworship]

How can God give life, if he needs a sperm and an egg?

those are just the ingredients of life. If there was no life within those things, then it would be useless. To explain this, try to bioengineer life from non life. Try to create DNA, proteins and cell reproduction, with simply chemicals and dirt.....it can't be done. Because there is no life in the planets, in the rocks or dust. God gives life.

That's what you got from what I said previously? Okay then. Have a good one.

please forgive me, sometimes I get passionate about topics and can speak without tact. I am sorry. I see people talking about the evils of God, yet endorsing mass murder. I am not saying you are doing this, but I have seen it in the past.

 

[Skreeper]

But if someone wants to be humble, just ask their wife what their flaws are. That should take care of that.

I asked my boyfriend and he said that I am as much flawed as the next guy. If I had big flaws he wouldn't love me.

I think it's more important to look at your strengths rather than your weaknesses. But maybe that's just my view.