Eschatology: Let's start here.

[All Glory To God]

I don't. I don't believe there is one human antichrist. Paul talks about "the spirit of antichrist"; which obviously is Satan. That spirit of rebellion and wickedness manifests in all sorts of people on all levels of society. Some of the most wicked sociopaths have been leaders of nations, churches and social institutions.

So, have there been popes who were the "spirit of antichrist". Yes, of course there have been.

Well, there is an anti-Christ and then there is the anti-Christ. In Revelation 13:1 that is the beast or false Christ that is the physical manifestation of Satan on earth. Not just some person that is spiritually corrupted.

I stumbled across something interesting recently though. Jerome (who came up with the Latin Vulgate translation) believed the heads on the beast were the 1st century Herodian dynasty. I came to that conclusion before I knew Jerome had come to that conclusion also. Apparently, that was a common belief in the early church. And in that historical context; I would agree with him / them. Again though, they aren't the only "antichrists" the world has seen either.

Again, in the book of 1 John it speaks of Antichrists but these are false preachers, not the beast of revelation.

And as far as history goes I would encourage all Protestants to go back to the original reformers and what they wrote. The church in the first three centuries can be very refreshing to learn from but as far as eschatology goes I personally would go back to the Reformers and creeds.

Interestingly though; it's only things that the Herods did that are spoken of in prophetic terms. Particularly Herod the Great and Agrippa I. The book of Acts specifically says that Herod Agrippa I was personally struck down by God. The New Testament says nothing about any other earthly political ruler being personally struck down by God. (Not in relation to Roman rulers at least.) Ironically too; Herod Agrippa I ruled as the sole king of the entire land of Judea for 42 months; from just after Caligula died in January of 41AD to just post Passover of 44 AD. He held a position of authority for a total of 7 years; but was the sole "king of Israel" for almost 3.5 years. There is a bit of a discrepancy between a lunar month / year and how the days calculate out in a solar year. (The Jewish lunar calendar had a leap month every 7 or so years.)

Who or what do you think the restrainer is, in the book of Thessalonians ( 2 Thessalonians 2:7 )?

If one were to put a "material world" label on "Babylon" in Revelation. It would be Jerusalem. Rome or the Roman Catholic Church is not the entity that has killed the people of God through the course of the history of written Scripture. Revelation specifically says "Babylon" is "where our Lord was crucified" (outside the gate). Jesus was not crucified in Rome.

God loves Israel. Jesus mourned over Jerusalem.

And where does it say ''Babylon is where our Lord was crucified"? unless you are referring to metaphorical language.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well, there is an anti-Christ and then there is the anti-Christ. In Revelation 13:1 that is the beast or false Christ that is the physical manifestation of Satan on earth. Not just some person that is spiritually corrupted.

Revelation 17:11 says the beast itself is the last king. (8th king). This fits in with Daniel 7:23 which says the beast is the fourth kingdom. This beast is diverse from the others. (It's not a strait forward political kingdom as we understand nation states. It's composed of a global cabal system that controls multiple nations.) I'm sure you've heard of the term "deep state". Well "the beast" and the "deep state" are the same entity.

This "beast system" covers a variety of social, political, educational, economic, religious etc. aspect of the global society. Perfect example here. Why is it do you suppose there's such an obvious "lock step" particularly in western nations in relation to Covid and this whole vaccine mandate thing? If there was not a "deep state" trying to control all off this; it would not be so organized of independent nations, because each independent nation would be deciding for themselves what to do.

Both Daniel and Revelation talk about 10 kings who are attached to this beast. The first 3 beasts that proceeded beast number four; were comprised of people and nations from a particular geographical area. The Assyrian / Babylonian / Persian / Greek / Roman empires all covered the same ground. In Acts, there are 10 nations named (of all peoples of that geographical area) as being present when the Holy Spirit was poured out. Those nations represented the going forth of the gospel into the larger global population. (They were the "world" of that day.) Today there are 10 nations that make up that same geographical area in the Middle-East.)

Do those 10 nations represent the global population in the same manner as the 10 people groups named in Acts, represented the gospel going into all the world? (Possible?)

Also, "the son of perdition" which is commonly referred to by dispensationalists using 2 Thessalonians 2:3, is also named in John 17:12 as being Judas. (Whom Judas was possessed by Satan.)

Again, in the book of 1 John it speaks of Antichrists but these are false preachers, not the beast of revelation.

And as far as history goes I would encourage all Protestants to go back to the original reformers and what they wrote. The church in the first three centuries can be very refreshing to learn from but as far as eschatology goes I personally would go back to the Reformers and creeds.

Yet, Revelation was written to a 1st century audience; whom they could see themselves in this text. Revelation 17:10 talks about the 7 kings. And right in the passage it says "five are fallen, one is and one is yet to come".

Now who were "7 kings" who existed in the 1st century? Now a lot of people claim that these are Roman emperors. Problem though is there are too many Roman emperors that existed between the birth of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem. BUT; guess how many Herods there are? There were 7 Herods who ruled Judea between about 37 BC to about 90 AD.

Also, contextually the reformer's claim that the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) is the beast, doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of history, because there was no RCC in the first century. And clearly, this beast existed (we know this based on what it says about the "fallen", "reigning" and "future" kings) at the time of writing of Revelation. So the beast in Revelation 13; can not be the RCC.

Who or what do you think the restrainer is, in the book of Thessalonians ( 2 Thessalonians 2:7 )?

Now here's the King James verse:
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Note: "..... he who now letteth, until he be taken out of the way". Who is "taken out of the way" in relation to the who is "letting"? A lot of people assume that the "antichrist" is taken out of the way by assumed to be the Holy Spirit. If you look really closely at the Greek though; you'll see that "he who letteth" isn't taking the "antichrist" out; He's removing Himself.

Note the context though. It is not saying that "he who lets" is removing His own presence from planet earth. No, He's removing Himself from restraining the actions of "he who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God". This is "Satan loosed (at the end of the millennium) to deceive the nations once again". This does not mean that the Holy Spirit isn't still active in believers still present on earth. Because Paul tells us there will be believers present on earth when Christ returns.

And since Revelation and Daniel tell us the "beast system" is the "8th king" and the "forth kingdom"; we won't see a singular antichrist figure (as had been seen with Judas). We see a series of antichrists in the context of the "beast system".

And because of the nature of what the beast system is. The "antichrists" we see, are not necessarily "political kings". Look at Fauci, Gates, Soros, Schwab, the pope, famous protestant religious leaders (like Franklin Graham); besides political heads of state. Note all these peoples' connections to each other outside of the roles they play in politics. (One common link is that they are all Masons.) Once you see the global networks these people have created. You'll see the "deep state". You'll see the beast.

Note who's cast into the Lake of Fire upon Christ's return; (the beast and the false prophet.) What does the 2nd beast in Revelation 13 represent? (Note it has horns of a lamb but speaks as the dragon. These are the false prophets. The 2nd beast is apostate Christianity. The first beast is apostate Judaism. Note; the 2nd beast compels those on earth to worship the 1st beast. (Zionism).

Which brings me to the next point.

God loves Israel. Jesus mourned over Jerusalem.

What did it mean when Jesus cursed the fig tree. What does the fig tree represent. I'll give you an hint. Everywhere in the Scripture where it talks about "the fig tree" and it's fig. Fig is always in the singular. The "fig tree" has only ever produced one fig. Who's that fig? (Another hint; same person as "the seed of Abraham" (Galatians 3:16)

And where does it say ''Babylon is where our Lord was crucified"? unless you are referring to metaphorical language.

Revelation 11:8 "... the great city which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt; where our Lord was crucified."

Revelation 14:8 "... Babylon is fallen; that great city, because she made the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornications...."

Now Revelation 18:
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. (None of the prophets of the Old Testament were ever killed in Rome!)

And lastly we have this gem:
1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Where was Peter? Peter was the "apostle to the circumcision". (Galatians 2:7). Peter stayed in Jerusalem until he was martyred. (In Jerusalem, crucified at behest of the Jewish leadership just as Jesus was.) Jesus had told Peter that this was the type of death he would die. (John 21:19)

 

[All Glory To God]

@The Righterzpen I won't debate this issue and my O.P was inquiring peoples views. I will look through some of my books and make a proper response. Even without my books I have to say your eschatology resembles what the Roman Catholic church propagates. The most amazing thing you keep bringing up is that Israel is the harlot of Babylon, which is what Rome teaches. And I deny your claim adamantly.

As it stands the Hebrew people are under the wrath of God and have been broken off for their sins against God. However, a remnant remains and they will be brought back to their covenant provoked by jealously by the Gentiles at a time pleasing to God. As Paul states in Romans 11. The dispensationalist church teaches that the elder son (Exodus 4:22) has been totally abandoned by God and they (the church) have replaced them altogether. Jerusalem is Gods city (Matthew 5:34-35) and anyone reading the Bible coming to the conclusion that Gods city is harlot of Babylon doesn't understand scripture.

More to come.

 

[JM]

Recreation: The entire cosmos as it currently stands, corrupted by the fall; will be recreated as incorruptible with no sin, no death and no potential to be corrupted again. God has overcome the evil that caused the fall in the first place. The "final stage" that evidences that God has overcome evil will be made manifest when the current cosmos is destroyed with fire and recreated incorruptible when Christ returns.

Well, that's not what happens, we see a renovation not a recreation. A reconstitution and redemption of creation but not a complete recreation.

Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. 33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The Kingdom slowly grows, it doesn't blow up the world in a way that requires recreation. This thinking is found in Premil and Amil's pessimistic understanding of eschatology. I would say when I was Premi, later moved to Amil, I had issues mixing up the Judgements upon unfaithful Israel with the final eschaton.

John 13:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Why must he be cast out?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

FULL STOP.

If Christ is raised up...what?

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

1 Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Sorry, but Christ's reign isn't limited to Heaven only, or the "hearts of believers," but both.

And... because what you perceive would be a display of Christ's power on earth is some sort of "golden age" of Christian ideals on this corrupt and fallen earth?

Well yes and you believe that as well if you're Amil. Christ's coming is "post" meaning after the millennium. We disagree on the nature of the millennium, you limited to Christ to Heaven only, I do not.

(Yet clearly, that's not how we see things unfolding at least in a socio-geo-political way.) Postmillennialism of the late 18th century noted the same issue; particularly after the French Revolution.

Stop trying to find the millennium in the news bro, look at what scripture teaches and allow that to inform your view. This is another area where Amil and Premil are usually in agreement - newspaper eschatology. I'm surprise you actually posted that you use the news to form your views.

So.... you posted this thread in Semper Reformanda. And it seems to me the issue you are having,

lol isn't that grand! The issue I'm having when you're defining the Kingdom by current events and like a Liberal, "I know he lives, he lives within my heart!" I bet you think God's first name is Andy. "Andy walks with me and he talks with me..."

See, two can play games with is why I didn't want to get into a long debate. You're entrenched and nothing will move you.

Good luck watching Fox and CNN trying to figure out the end.

jm

 

[The Righterzpen]

@The Righterzpen I won't debate this issue and my O.P was inquiring peoples views. I will look through some of my books and make a proper response. Even without my books I have to say your eschatology resembles what the Roman Catholic church propagates. The most amazing thing you keep bringing up is that Israel is the harlot of Babylon, which is what Rome teaches. And I deny your claim adamantly.

Well, I don't know what the RCC teaches as per their eschatology. I came to the conclusions I've come to, just by comparing Bible passages to each other.

I do know that historically, up until just after WWII, that most western churches; (I don't know much about what Eastern Orthodox believes on the subject.) did not believe in Zionism in any of it's various current reiterations. Both Zionism and Dispensationalism follow very similar paths starting about 1850; although Jewish Zionists didn't become politically organized until WWI and the Balfour Declaration. Where as political Christian Zionism didn't take root in America until after WWII.

Western church teachings concerning those who practiced Rabbinic Judaism, believed; (just like any other ethnic / racial / or national group) individuals would come into the Kingdom as believers; not groups of people, because God had some "special plan" for such group of people. They didn't see Jews as "God's chosen people" any more than they saw Russians, or Chinese or natives of the Americas as "God's chosen people". Anyone who came was "coming through the blood" and not some other "special plan" outside of some general format of Christian evangelism.

Which yes, many, many European Jews converted to Christianity during the 19th century. (Evidence of this is that a good percentage of Europeans and European descended Americans have Ashkenazi DNA.) Which this trend, in turn became the cultural / political motivator for Jewish political Zionism.

As it stands the Hebrew people are under the wrath of God and have been broken off for their sins against God.

Well, if you want to go down the "rabbit hole" of "the final iteration of Hebrew people under the wrath of God"; you'd have to go all the way back to the 1st century and the Roman / Jewish wars. Jesus told the people "when you see armies surrounding Jerusalem..." to "get out". Those that heeded his warning left. Those rebellious left of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (with a smattering of a few other tribes) were destroyed by the Roman army.

Prior to this, when you back to the Babylonian captivity; the people who came to inhabit the land after Judah and Benjamin were taken to Babylon were descendants of Esau. These people obviously were mixed with Greek and Persian lineages too. As the return from the Babylonian captivity got underway; these "Hebrew cousins" were forcibly converted to post-Babylonian captivity Judaism. And this was the "beef" with the Sadducees and Pharisees over the ancestry of Herod the Great. He was a "Hellenized Jew".

Post Babylonian captivity Judaism had two (to three) "schools of thought". The two largest were the Sadducees and Pharisees and next would have been the "lawyer / scribe class". Then there were the Essenes and other smaller groups. Well the Sadducees disappeared after the 1st century and the Talmud; which finished being penned about 450 A.D. is a far right offshoot of the Pharisees; which becomes modern Rabbinic Judaism.

Prior to the Babylonian captivity, the vast majority of the northern 10 tribes were absorbed / destroyed by the Assyrians.

So in reality, there are no blood lines of the 1st century genetic descendants of Jacob left. Jewish tribes from the 1st century who converted to Christianity, intermarried with the gentile churches that absorbed them once the Jewish system was destroyed.

Today, 85% or so of people who claim Judaism as their ethnic / religious back ground aren't even Semitic. Only about 3 to 5% of "Jews" today have Semitic DNA. Yet the source of that Semitic DNA is; I'm not sure anyone really knows. There's a couple of markers for "ancient strands"; but... lol; most of the population of the Middle-East has those same "ancient markers". So, the major source of Semitic DNA people have today are most likely descendants of Ishmael (Arabs) or descendants of Esau (Edomites).

Which leave us with...... Well... What does Romans 11 really mean?

However, a remnant remains and they will be brought back to their covenant provoked by jealously by the Gentiles at a time pleasing to God. As Paul states in Romans 11.

Now if you want an exposition of Romans 11; we can do that. But for now:

The dispensationalist church teaches that the elder son (Exodus 4:22) has been totally abandoned by God and they (the church) have replaced them altogether.

Which this gets into what some people call "replacement theology". That term is quite the misnomer though, because those whom Christ atoned for (be they "Jews" from the time of Abraham up through the end of the 1st century) Those people (as well as any believer who's come into the Kingdom prior to Abraham, or post Pentecost) have always been and never ceased to be "the people of God". No one has ever "replaced" the elect. Doesn't matter what nation, tribe, kindred or tongue they came from.

And assuming you believe in election; you should have no "beef" with that statement.

Jerusalem is Gods city (Matthew 5:34-35)

Now as far as Matthew 5:35? Which Jerusalem is he talking about? "The city of the Great King"... is what? We know "the Great King" is Christ. Again, who are the people of God? A Jew is not a Jew of the flesh. Romans 2:29

Which, this should be a comfort to all people; because at what ever "luck of the draw" one has to be one of the elect, is not dependent on human heritage. God is not a respecter of persons.

anyone reading the Bible coming to the conclusion that Gods city is harlot of Babylon doesn't understand scripture.

And as per this; let the Scripture speak for itself. Revelation does actually tell you who "Babylon the mother of harlots" is.

Revelation 11:8 "... the great city which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt; where our Lord was crucified."

Revelation 14:8 "... Babylon is fallen; that great city, because she made the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornications...."

Now Revelation 18:
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. (None of the prophets of the Old Testament were ever killed in Rome!)

And lastly we have this gem:
1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Where was Peter? Peter was the "apostle to the circumcision". (Galatians 2:7). Peter stayed in Jerusalem until he was martyred. (In Jerusalem, crucified at behest of the Jewish leadership just as Jesus was.) Jesus had told Peter that this was the type of death he would die. (John 21:19)

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well, that's not what happens, we see a renovation not a recreation. A reconstitution and redemption of creation but not a complete recreation.

So... you don't believe this is going to happen?

2 Peter 3:
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

How would you interpret verse 10; in what ever your definition of "reconstitution" is?

Obviously at this point, I know you are a postmillennialist; and I'm pretty sure we've established that you believe there will be coming a material bodily return of Christ.

Yet, if we go back to when God created the cosmos, we have "darkness upon the face of the deep"; which constitutes some form of ability to be corrupted. (Obviously that would have to be true, because that's what happened.)

So as the current "ability to be corrupted" condition of things; what seems the most necessary to conquer/defeat that state, in order to prevent it from happening again? Would "reconstitution" suffice, or would it be necessary to "recreate"?

If we compare what's necessary for redemption from a reformed doctrine stand point; we couldn't just be "reconstituted", we had to be "recreated". Because the only thing "reconstitution" could accomplish, is a "second Eden" type scenario; which does not prevent being re-corrupted.

This of course depends on what your conceptualizing as "reconstitution". If your definition of "reconstitution" matches my definition of "recreation"; than we are on the same page. Because some semblance of "what was" will be remembered in "what will become". We're not talking like turning a snail into an angel. What was still has semblance of what will become; but it will be minus the sin, death and ability to be corrupted. Which is more maybe on the equivalent of like taking petroleum and making plastic out of it. Petroleum started out as a plant and now as a plastic, it's so far removed from what it was, that it isn't even recognizable any more. A more natural example would be a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. It's still a "carbon based life form" but you would not recognize what it was to what it becomes.

So if that's what you mean by "reconstitution"; I can see that. Yet based on how profoundly corruption affected this cosmos; a "reconstitution" that seems more a kin to a "recreation" seems more necessary to me.

The Kingdom slowly grows, it doesn't blow up the world in a way that requires recreation. This thinking is found in Premil and Amil's pessimistic understanding of eschatology. I would say when I was Premi, later moved to Amil, I had issues mixing up the Judgements upon unfaithful Israel with the final eschaton.

I think you are mixing up the Kingdom's progression within this current order of things to establish redemption with, "mortality putting on immortality". We can't escape the consequences of the fall. We will aways be sinners, always be subject to death; in the course of how this current universe operates. Because of how it was created as being subject to being corrupted; we can't ever get out of that without being "recreated". A fundamental change to this cosmos's current "constitution" (if you want to call it that) has to be enacted in order to deliver it from the consequences of corruption.

John 13:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Why must he be cast out?

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

FULL STOP.

If Christ is raised up...what?

OK, not sure what you are trying to say here? John 13:31 isn't talking about Christ. That verse is about Satan being kicked out of heaven. Judgement had commenced; and if Christ hadn't fulfilled the atonement; the immediate judgement / destruction of the current cosmos would have followed.

Jesus is given all power in heaven and earth, because he fulfilled the requirement that God's holiness had demanded in execution of judgement for sin.

So thus the consequence of what atonement had accomplished, is made manifest on earth, in what you quoted in Acts 2:32 and 1 Corinthians 15:20

Sorry, but Christ's reign isn't limited to Heaven only, or the "hearts of believers," but both.

I don't know where you got this notion from; but I didn't say that Christ's reign is limited to heaven and / or hearts of believers "only".

I just don't see from Scripture that the manifestation of Christ reigning on earth is going to materialize as you think it will. There will be no "grand socio-political golden age". The Kingdom's purpose in this current order of things as it operates on this current earth; is not that. The Kingdom's purpose now, is to deliver sinners from judgement unto Christ through the preaching of the gospel.

Well yes and you believe that as well if you're Amil. Christ's coming is "post" meaning after the millennium. We disagree on the nature of the millennium, you limited to Christ to Heaven only, I do not.

I think it would be more accurate to say that we disagree on how Christ's power is made manifest on this earth in it's current state. But yes, we do agree that Jesus returns at the end of the millennium.

Stop trying to find the millennium in the news bro, look at what scripture teaches and allow that to inform your view. This is another area where Amil and Premil are usually in agreement - newspaper eschatology. I'm surprise you actually posted that you use the news to form your views.

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying, when I note to you that the "socio-political golden age" is not materializing. It never has and it never will.

I'm not engaging in "news paper eschatology"; (or at least in the sense of awaiting the pre-millennial dispensational narrative). If portions of that narrative do "materialize" in this world; it's not a fulfillment of prophecy. It's a human engineered forced narrative that's set forth with the intention to deceive, because that's how Satan operates. And the closer we get to the end; the greater and more "convincing" the deception becomes, for those who are putting their trust in that narrative.

They'll "expect" the rebuilding of the temple. They'll "expect" the rapture and what they'll get is Judgment Day. That's the scariest part about that parable of the 10 virgins. "Many will say in that day.... And I will say: I never knew you; depart from me you workers of iniquity!" In our day and age; in our era; that is the scariest verse in the entire Bible. The premillennial dispensationalists tries to postpone Judgement Day for another 1000 years. The modern postmillennialist tries to postpone Judgement Day for another 2000 to 3000 years.

But what if Christ returns.... (before I finish typing this sentence)? That possibility exists. And you see that tension in the New Testament with... everyone was asking about it. It's the same tension we see today. Most of the world has some sort of sense of "something's going down"! Something's gonna give. Something's gonna break. Whether they think it's a nuclear war with China. A far worse "Covid" strand. La Palma causes a tidal wave to hit the east coast. A meteor hits the earth, a solar flare fries all the satellites, the power grid collapses and suddenly 7 billion people are "playing hunger games". What ever it is; people are caught in this tension of something's going to give. And depending on what the individual puts their trust in; will give you their interpretation of what they think the "signs of the times" mean.

lol isn't that grand! The issue I'm having when you're defining the Kingdom by current events and like a Liberal, "I know he lives, he lives within my heart!" I bet you think God's first name is Andy. "Andy walks with me and he talks with me..."

See, two can play games with is why I didn't want to get into a long debate. You're entrenched and nothing will move you.

Good luck watching Fox and CNN trying to figure out the end.

OK, stop getting snotty. You obviously didn't read what I wrote and you didn't post the entirety of the last clip of what I said.

Here it is. I did find a misspelling in it that may have colored what you thought I was saying:

So.... you posted this thread in Semper Reformanda. And it seems to me the issue you are having, has more to do with the sovereignty of God and how He carries out His redemption plan; than it has to do with comparing eschatological schemas to what's going on in this current heavens and earth.

You apparently are very frustrated that I don't agree with your view on postmillennialism. So I raised the question of whether or not this is really about comparing eschatological schemas to what's going on in this current heavens and earth; OR is the issue you're facing rather that you are more frustrated with the sovereignty of God; and that what He's doing, isn't matching what you think should be happening?

That wasn't a question posed to be "mean".

You have an idea in your head of what you think postmillennialism should look like and this isn't what we see.

What we see right now is a pretty scary world, full of corrupt leaders, bogus elections, inflation, people loosing their jobs because of some stupid mandate, for some stupid shot that doesn't even work and is killing a bunch of people on top of it. The media aint telling the truth, nobody knows what the.... FLIP! is going on and a bunch of pedophile, human trafficking, puppy torturers who've launched a bio-weapon on this world are trying to take away our rights and throw us in FEMA camps because we won't bow to their agenda.

Let's go Brandon!

YES! It's a scary world; and that stuff is really happening. God knows it though; and God has His purposes for this. Doesn't mean we have to like it. Damn! I'm scared to take my kid to the hospital to investigate whether or not surgery will stop his seizures and ...... simply because..... we aint vaxxed!

So we wait. We all wait. We pray for wisdom (and move to a "red state" if it comes to that). We all live in stressful times; and most of us have not been taught how to be psychologically resilient to this type of ongoing stress. I feel it. Everyone feels it. All we can do is pray for wisdom to know what the next step to take is. And pray for the courage to take it.

This thread isn't about trying to be nasty to people.

I know that's not why you started this thread.

So, take a deep breath and say a prayer!

 

[JM]

For Calvin, the kingdom of Christ was viewed as established at the first advent. During this interadventual period, the church is destined to experience widespread success; throughout history it will bring all nations under the sovereign sway of Christ. To this interadventual period Calvin referred many of the glorious prophecies about the Messiah’s kingdom found in the Old Testament. … About Isaiah 2:2-4, Calvin had the following to say, “…while the fullness of days began at the coming of Christ, it flows on in uninterrupted progress until he appears the second time for our salvation.” … The triumphant progress of the church, reigning under Christ, will be remarkable down through history; the soteric restoration of the world will be increasingly evident as all nations come under the rule of the Savior. Such was Calvin’s hope, his biblical philosophy of history. …

The confidence of the Reformer was clearly expressed in his expositions of the Lord’s Prayer at the second petition (“Thy kingdom come”): “now, because the word of God is like a royal sceptre, we are bidden hear to entreat him to bring all men’s minds and hearts into voluntary obedience to it. …We must daily desire that God gather churches unto himself from all parts of the earth; that he spread and increase them in number; … that he cast down all enemies of pure teaching and religion; that he scatter their counsels and crush their efforts. From this it appears that zeal for daily progress is not enjoined upon us in vain. … With ever-increasing splendor, he displays his light and truth, by which the darkness and falsehoods of Satan’s kingdom vanish, are extinguished and pass away. …[God] is said to reign among men, when they voluntarily devote and submit themselves to be governed by him. … By this prayer we ask, that he may remove all hindrances, and may bring all men under his dominion. …We therefore pray that God would exert his power, both by the Word and the Spirit, that the whole world may willingly submit to him. … The substance of this prayer is that God would enlighten the world by the light of his Word,—would form the hearts of men, by the influences of his Spirit, to obey his justice,—and would restore to order, by the gracious exercise of his power, all the disorder that exists in the world … Again, as the kingdom of God is continually growing and advancing to the end of the world, we must pray every day that it may come: for to whatever extent iniquity abounds in the world, to such an extent the kingdom of God, which brings along with it perfect righteousness, is not yet come.” This prayer for the evident success of the Great Commission will not be in vain, according to Calvin; our hope for success should be bold, for we must not doubt that Christ will accomplish this purpose in the world. Here we have the postmillennial vision for preconsummation [i.e., pre-second advent] history.​

Rev Dr Greg L Bahnsen, Victory in Jesus: The Bright Hope of Postmillennialism, 1999

The kingdom of God is going to break the power of sin wherever there is defection from the will of God. … Therefore, fundamentally the success for the kingdom that we look forward to, biblically, is going to be found in mankind returning to faith. According to Psalm 22, there will be worldwide conversion. Isaiah 11:9 tells us that , “the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.” God one day flooded the world in judgment in the days of Noah. He now, in the days of Christ, is flooding the world with the knowledge of him in salvation. How thorough will it be? Is it adequate for us to say there is always going to be a few converts here and there—a few righteous remnants in this city and that, in this country and that? No! The knowledge of the Lord is going to cover the earth in the same way the water covers the sea. How does the water cover the sea? In little puddles, a little puddle here, a little puddle there? No! The water inundates the sea. Isaiah says this is what we should expect—the knowledge of the Lord is going to be just that thorough. It will flood the world.

Moreover, Jesus, in Matthew 28, does not hesitate to call on us to baptize the nations. Psalm 72 says the righteous will flourish in His day. It is not going to be these yahoos that we have in Washington now that are going to flourish, not these wicked evil people who flourish in the media, that sing songs and make movies and draw people away from righteousness, but the righteous will flourish in His day. …

There is going to be a visible, numerical increase of believers. There is going to be a personal peace with God, piety, assurance of our calling, and wholeness in our lives. This is going to bring a blessed purification and expansion of the Church. In Malachi 1:11, the prophet Malachi says the day is coming when a pure offering will be offered to Jehovah. No longer this weak and ineffective and impure worship that has been offered, but in that day a pure offering, and God will be worshipped from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof. There will not be a place on planet earth where Jehovah is not purely worshipped. That is great! This is not wishful thinking, this is not something we have made up; this does not come from watching the 6 o’clock news. Only God could give us something this wonderful, this blessed.​

Rev Dr Greg L Bahnsen, Victory in Jesus: The Bright Hope of Postmillennialism, 1999

Oh, what promises are ours, if we had only faith to grasp them! What a promise is that in the great commission – Go and do so, and lo I am with you, even to the end of the world! We go forth amongst hundreds of millions of the nations, we find gigantic systems of idolatry and superstition consolidated for 3000 years, heaped up and multiplied for ages upon ages, until they tower as high mountains, mightier than the Himalaya … But what does faith say? Believe and it shall be. And if any Church on earth can realise that faith, to that Church will the honour belong of evangelising the nations, and bringing down the mountains.​

Rev. Alexander Duff, speech On Foreign Missions and America, 1854

Eschatology, the doctrine of last things, is also the doctrine of first things because it is concerned with the goal of history. Of necessity, goals determine present-day action. We are not motivated to action unless we know the purpose for our action. Specific goals motivate us. If we believe that the main and final goal of the Christian life is heaven, or the salvation of our souls, we will be indifferent to history and the world around us. But, if in terms of Matthew 6:33, we believe that the Kingdom of God and his righteousness or justice must have priority in our lives, then we will not have a self-centered view of salvation. Our personal salvation is not the focus and goal of the Gospel but simply the starting point. The goal is God’s Kingdom, His purpose for humanity and the world. The essence of man’s fall is his will to be his own god, his own source of law and morality (Gen. 3:5). All too often men retain aspects of this original sin in insisting that their salvation is the center of God’s plan. God seeks His own glory and purpose; our place in His plan is not at the center.

Thus, it is serious deformation, first, if we make our personal salvation central to God’s plan and purpose. It is arrogant for man, in plain divergence for God’s word, to see himself as more important in God’s plan than God Himself! Such a view is an echo of man’s original sin.

Second, it is also an error to make the church central to God’s plan and purpose. Such a view is Augustinian but wrong. St. Augustine, father of much good and bad in church history, despaired of victory in the world and therefore saw the church as the sphere of victory. This led to a very high doctrine of the church, both in Rome and Protestantism. If our hope for the futures of man and Christ’s world is only in the church, then we will stress the church as man’s hope. The church will be over-stressed because it is man’s only hope. Neither the state, the Christian family, nor the school, nor any other institution offers hope, and none are seen as therefore central or important.

Third, an eschatology which is not postmillennial will have a prayer life very different from that of a postmillennialist. A problem in prayer is self-absorption, and undue concern with the personal. To a degree, this is necessary, and the psalms reflect the private concerns of their writers; but they also reflect the hope of victory and the assurance of God’s triumph in history. Without such a concern, our prayers become warped and self-centered.

A grim fact that faces us today is the impotence of the Christian community. More than half the people in the United States who are eighteen years of age and older profess to believe in Jesus Christ as God incarnate, and in the Bible as God’s infallible word. If those people were only one fourth of the population, they should still be dominating the culture when in fact they are marginal. Their false eschatologies place them on the sidelines of history, and some even pride themselves on their irrelevance.

Some years ago, I edited the eschatological writings of J. Marcellus Kik and published them under the title Eschatology of Victory, perhaps the best title I ever gave a book. The title states the case: postmillennialism is the eschatology of victory. This was the reason for the widespread success of God’s Plan for Victory. Many people with other views were quick to embrace postmillennialism because, as they wrote, they were not happy with being “losers.” The notion of defeat does not go well with the fact of an omnipotent God and a conquering Christ.

For me, there is another (and very personal) advantage in postmillennialism. It takes with total seriousness and a totality of meaning the validity of Romans 8:28, “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose.” My work has not lacked its sometimes ugly and dishonest attacks. To be in the “winner’s circle” makes a great difference in facing these things and ignoring them because the end result is so clear. History, both world history and the personal outcome, is a magnificent success story according to the Bible. We can thus be patient at the rage of the ignorant and of losers.​

R. J. Rushdoony, From the Preface of God’s Plan For Victory: The Meaning of Postmillennialism (1997 reprint edition; first published 1977).

Hope is one of the principle springs that keep mankind in motion. It is vigorous, bold, and enterprising. It causes men to encounter dangers, endure hardships, and surmount difficulties innumerable, in order to accomplish the desired end. In religion it is of no less consequence. It makes a considerable part of the religion. Of those that truly fear God …

Andrew Fuller, first Secretary of the Baptist Missionary Society, in a circular letter to the Churches of the Northamptonshire Association on The Excellency and Utility of the Grace of Hope, 1782

Strong and certain was the conviction of the Christians that the church would come forth triumphant out of its conflicts, and, as it was its destination to be a world-transforming principle, would attain to dominion of the world.​

J.A. Neander, 1851, History of the Christian Religion and Church Vol 2

Plain it is, there is not a more stupifying, benumbing thing in all the world than mere despair. To look upon such a sad face and aspect of things through the world as we have before our eyes; to look upon despairingly and with apprehension that it never will, never can be better. … But hope is a kind of anticipated enjoyment and gives a present participation in the expected pleasantness of those days, how long soever they may yet be off from us. … Religion shall not be an inglorious thing in the world always.​

John Howe, 1678, Sermons on The Prosperous State of the Christian Interest Before the End of Time

There will come a time when in this world holiness shall be more general, and more eminent, than ever it hath been since Adam fell in paradise.​

Thomas Brooks, 1608-1680, The Crown and Glory of Christianity, Complete Works Vol 4

Though our persons fall, our cause shall be as truly, certainly, and infallibly victorious, as that Christ sits at the right hand of God. The gospel shall be victorious. This greatly comforts and refreshes me.​

John Owen, 1616-1683, The Works of John Owen Volume 9

We also rejoice in hope. We have many and express assurances in the Scriptures, which cannot be broken, of the general, the universal spread and reign of Christianity, which are not yet accomplished. Nothing has yet taken place in the history of Divine grace, wide enough in extent, durable enough in continuance, powerful enough in energy, blessed enough in enjoyment, magnificent enough in glory, to do anything like justice to these predictions and promises. Better days, therefore, are before us, notwithstanding the forebodings of many.​

William Jay, 1769-1855, Nonconformist leader, The Autobiography and Reminiscences of the Rev. William Jay.

Micah proclaims how all the world will be brought to God at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This reunification has already begun, is taking place now, and will continue until the end of the world. … Jesus Christ has been designated the Lord, not simply of one corner of the world, but of all nations. … Since our Lord Jesus Christ’s kingdom has hardly begun, it is necessary for it to be implemented little by little, until it achieves its full perfection.​

John Calvin, AD 1509-1564, Sermons on the Book of Micah

Commenting on Psalm 2 regarding the Lord laughing at the nations (v.4):
It is to be understood of that power which he giveth to His saints, that they seeing the things to come, namely, that the Name and rule of Christ is to pervade posterity and possess all nations. … ‘Ask of Me’ (v.7), may be referred to all this temporal dispensation, which has been instituted for mankind, namely, that the ‘nations’ should be joined to the Name of Christ, and so be redeemed from death, and possessed by God. ‘I shall give Thee the nations for Thine inheritance,’ which so possess them for their salvation, and bear unto Thee spiritual fruit.​

Augustine,AD 354-430

It is right for you to realise, and to take as the sum of what we have already stated, and to marvel at exceedingly; namely, that since the Saviour has come among us, idolatry not only has no longer increased, but what there was is diminishing and gradually coming to an end: and not only does the wisdom of the Greeks no longer advance , but what there was is fading away. … And to sum the matter up: behold how the Saviour’s doctrine is everywhere increasing, while all idolatry and everything opposed to the faith of Christ is daily dwindling, and losing power, and falling. … For as, when the sun is come, darkness no longer prevails, but if any be still left anywhere it is driven away; so, now that the divine Appearing of the Word of God is come, the darkness of the idols prevails no more, and all parts of the world in every direction are illumined by His teaching.​

Athanasius, AD 296-372, Incarnation

David was not a believer in the theory that the world will grow worse and worse, and that the dispensation will wind up with general darkness, and idolatry. Earth’s sun is to go down amid tenfold night if some of our prophetic brethren are to be believed. Not so do we expect, but we look for the day when the dwellers in all lands shall learn righteousness, shall trust in the Saviour, shall worship thee alone, O God, ‘and shall glorify thy name.’ The modern notion has greatly damped the zeal of the church for missions, and the sooner it is shown to be unscriptural the better for the cause fo God. It neither consorts with prophecy, honours God, nor inspires the church with ardour. Far hence be it driven.​

C. H. Spurgeon, From an exposition of Psalm 86:9, ‘All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify they name’. The Treasury of David, 1874.

 

[JM]

So... you don't believe this is going to happen?

2 Peter 3:
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

How would you interpret verse 10; in what ever your definition of "reconstitution" is?

Obviously at this point, I know you are a postmillennialist; and I'm pretty sure we've established that you believe there will be coming a material bodily return of Christ.

Yet, if we go back to when God created the cosmos, we have "darkness upon the face of the deep"; which constitutes some form of ability to be corrupted. (Obviously that would have to be true, because that's what happened.)

So as the current "ability to be corrupted" condition of things; what seems the most necessary to conquer/defeat that state, in order to prevent it from happening again? Would "reconstitution" suffice, or would it be necessary to "recreate"?

If we compare what's necessary for redemption from a reformed doctrine stand point; we couldn't just be "reconstituted", we had to be "recreated". Because the only thing "reconstitution" could accomplish, is a "second Eden" type scenario; which does not prevent being re-corrupted.

This of course depends on what your conceptualizing as "reconstitution". If your definition of "reconstitution" matches my definition of "recreation"; than we are on the same page. Because some semblance of "what was" will be remembered in "what will become". We're not talking like turning a snail into an angel. What was still has semblance of what will become; but it will be minus the sin, death and ability to be corrupted. Which is more maybe on the equivalent of like taking petroleum and making plastic out of it. Petroleum started out as a plant and now as a plastic, it's so far removed from what it was, that it isn't even recognizable any more. A more natural example would be a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. It's still a "carbon based life form" but you would not recognize what it was to what it becomes.

So if that's what you mean by "reconstitution"; I can see that. Yet based on how profoundly corruption affected this cosmos; a "reconstitution" that seems more a kin to a "recreation" seems more necessary to me.



I think you are mixing up the Kingdom's progression within this current order of things to establish redemption with, "mortality putting on immortality". We can't escape the consequences of the fall. We will aways be sinners, always be subject to death; in the course of how this current universe operates. Because of how it was created as being subject to being corrupted; we can't ever get out of that without being "recreated". A fundamental change to this cosmos's current "constitution" (if you want to call it that) has to be enacted in order to deliver it from the consequences of corruption.



OK, not sure what you are trying to say here? John 13:31 isn't talking about Christ. That verse is about Satan being kicked out of heaven. Judgement had commenced; and if Christ hadn't fulfilled the atonement; the immediate judgement / destruction of the current cosmos would have followed.

Jesus is given all power in heaven and earth, because he fulfilled the requirement that God's holiness had demanded in execution of judgement for sin.

So thus the consequence of what atonement had accomplished, is made manifest on earth, in what you quoted in Acts 2:32 and 1 Corinthians 15:20



I don't know where you got this notion from; but I didn't say that Christ's reign is limited to heaven and / or hearts of believers "only".

I just don't see from Scripture that the manifestation of Christ reigning on earth is going to materialize as you think it will. There will be no "grand socio-political golden age". The Kingdom's purpose in this current order of things as it operates on this current earth; is not that. The Kingdom's purpose now, is to deliver sinners from judgement unto Christ through the preaching of the gospel.



I think it would be more accurate to say that we disagree on how Christ's power is made manifest on this earth in it's current state. But yes, we do agree that Jesus returns at the end of the millennium.



I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying, when I note to you that the "socio-political golden age" is not materializing. It never has and it never will.

I'm not engaging in "news paper eschatology"; (or at least in the sense of awaiting the pre-millennial dispensational narrative). If portions of that narrative do "materialize" in this world; it's not a fulfillment of prophecy. It's a human engineered forced narrative that's set forth with the intention to deceive, because that's how Satan operates. And the closer we get to the end; the greater and more "convincing" the deception becomes, for those who are putting their trust in that narrative.

They'll "expect" the rebuilding of the temple. They'll "expect" the rapture and what they'll get is Judgment Day. That's the scariest part about that parable of the 10 virgins. "Many will say in that day.... And I will say: I never knew you; depart from me you workers of iniquity!" In our day and age; in our era; that is the scariest verse in the entire Bible. The premillennial dispensationalists tries to postpone Judgement Day for another 1000 years. The modern postmillennialist tries to postpone Judgement Day for another 2000 to 3000 years.

But what if Christ returns.... (before I finish typing this sentence)? That possibility exists. And you see that tension in the New Testament with... everyone was asking about it. It's the same tension we see today. Most of the world has some sort of sense of "something's going down"! Something's gonna give. Something's gonna break. Whether they think it's a nuclear war with China. A far worse "Covid" strand. La Palma causes a tidal wave to hit the east coast. A meteor hits the earth, a solar flare fries all the satellites, the power grid collapses and suddenly 7 billion people are "playing hunger games". What ever it is; people are caught in this tension of something's going to give. And depending on what the individual puts their trust in; will give you their interpretation of what they think the "signs of the times" mean.



OK, stop getting snotty. You obviously didn't read what I wrote and you didn't post the entirety of the last clip of what I said.

Here it is. I did find a misspelling in it that may have colored what you thought I was saying:



You apparently are very frustrated that I don't agree with your view on postmillennialism. So I raised the question of whether or not this is really about comparing eschatological schemas to what's going on in this current heavens and earth; OR is the issue you're facing rather that you are more frustrated with the sovereignty of God; and that what He's doing, isn't matching what you think should be happening?

That wasn't a question posed to be "mean".

You have an idea in your head of what you think postmillennialism should look like and this isn't what we see.

What we see right now is a pretty scary world, full of corrupt leaders, bogus elections, inflation, people loosing their jobs because of some stupid mandate, for some stupid shot that doesn't even work and is killing a bunch of people on top of it. The media aint telling the truth, nobody knows what the.... FLIP! is going on and a bunch of pedophile, human trafficking, puppy torturers who've launched a bio-weapon on this world are trying to take away our rights and throw us in FEMA camps because we won't bow to their agenda.

Let's go Brandon!

YES! It's a scary world; and that stuff is really happening. God knows it though; and God has His purposes for this. Doesn't mean we have to like it. Damn! I'm scared to take my kid to the hospital to investigate whether or not surgery will stop his seizures and ...... simply because..... we aint vaxxed!

So we wait. We all wait. We pray for wisdom (and move to a "red state" if it comes to that). We all live in stressful times; and most of us have not been taught how to be psychologically resilient to this type of ongoing stress. I feel it. Everyone feels it. All we can do is pray for wisdom to know what the next step to take is. And pray for the courage to take it.

This thread isn't about trying to be nasty to people.

I know that's not why you started this thread.

So, take a deep breath and say a prayer!

Nope. You have an outdated view of Postmil and are actually arguing against Historicism. You are setting up a strawman so you can burn'em. Go for it. You have a lot more time on your hands than I do.

Best of luck.

Just curious...are you a Presbyterian? Which Reformed Church do you attend?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Nope. You have an outdated view of Postmil and are actually arguing against Historicism. You are setting up a strawman so you can burn'em. Go for it. You have a lot more time on your hands than I do.

Best of luck.

And... what exactly do you think that "straw man" is, I'm allegedly "setting up"? What's this "you have a lot more time on your hands than I do; best of luck"; and why are you so snotty about all of this?

Although I would agree with you that I wouldn't exactly call myself a historicist either. The meaning of terms have changed though out the course of church history. A "historic premillennialist" is not the same thing as a "dispensational premillennialist" and what would have been considered a "historicist" during the Reformation, would be closer to a Preterist today. Also, postmillennialists in the 18th century, did not believe the same things postmillennialists do today.

Again though, why are you being so snotty about all of this?

Just curious...are you a Presbyterian? Which Reformed Church do you attend?

No, I'm not a presbyterian per se; Although I was at an OPC church for about 10 years and I do think the presbyterian form of church governance is the most Biblical. Also, what I would call my interpretation of "covenant theology" would not be articulated the same way as the OPC would articulate it. Although the pastor at the OPC church I'd attended did not disagree on my "definition" of "covenant theology" being "one covenant" with two sides of the same coin. We are both Bible and history nerds, with a lot of agreement on things that weren't exactly similarly defined by theologians of past church history.

He found my Bible research on how the atonement was actually connected to what is commonly called in our day "the great tribulation" intriguing. (The great tribulation occurred the week of the crucifixion.) The prophecies in Daniel are connected to things that happened as part of the life and ministry of Jesus. We find clues to this in the New Testament text. The "70 weeks of Daniel 9" fall between the death of John the Baptist and Pentecost. There were some very interesting things that happened (earth quakes and eclipses) when John the Baptist came on the scene. And there were a lot of "geological events" that happened with the death and resurrection of Christ.

Language in the book of Revelation have caused me to conclude that the "7 kings" / "heads" on the beast in Revelation 13 were the Herodian dynasty. Which come to find out at this point; the early church fathers believed that too. This was the belief held by Jerome who was the monk that did the Latin Vulgate translation.

So no, it's not the case that you could "pigeon hole" what I've come to discover from the Bible about "prophecy" into one "eschatological category". I'm "closest" to Preterism; but I don't exactly fit there either. Most Preterists I've encountered believe "the great tribulation" had to do with the Roman Jewish wars. No, that's not Scriptural. All "prophecy" is linked to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ; with several "odds and ends" given to us in the Scripture about the second coming. Some of that information though is pretty well hidden and doesn't exactly "jump out" at us in English, as it does in Greek and Hebrew. A lot of it, I've actually found on accident.

Currently, I go to a reformed baptist church and in terms of baptism, I'm more in agreement with the current church than I was with the former one; although I understand why the OPC baptizes babies. I'm more in the "believer's baptism" camp. That's closest in alignment to what we see in Acts and my son was baptized when he was old enough to understand what it was, why it was and on account of the fact that he wanted to be baptized.

There were some very obvious problems with the OPC church we were at. First off, it was 7 years before that church "decided" my son had a "credible enough profession of faith" to baptize him. (Which is not Biblical at all. No where in Scripture do we see "credible profession of faith" is a requirement to be baptized.)

He was 16 at the time; but he has Autism and epilepsy with some obvious developmental issues. I had formally joined that church myself and it had been at least 8 years I'd been a member. And seeing how my son was "under the authority of my household" we "suited" their "formal church regulations" as a "covenant family". He's almost 20 years old now and he still is "under the authority of my household" as I am his court appointed legal guardian.

Yet, the session still wanted him to join as if he was a "full fledged adult", requiring everything of him that they'd require of someone who was not developmentally disabled, who was a legal adult. Which, was hypocritical of them; as there were other developmentally disabled people at this church, which they did not require that of them.

The session wanted him to "formally join the church" though, which required him to get up in front of everyone to do so. He was not willing to do that. The pastor was willing to baptize him at our house, with a handful of church members that he was familiar with and who were familiar with him. That is actually in the OPC bylaws, that functions like baptism and communion could be administered without the "presence of the entire church".

The whole session would not agree to that. Certain of them claimed it was "un-Biblical" though their own presbytery church regulations allowed for it. Despite the fact that they had no Biblical argument against this. And could not argue against the reality that the only people that were at the Ethiopian eunuchs's baptism were him and Philip.

So, my son was baptized at a Christian music festival in a hotel swimming pool that summer, by what I'd call a "run of the mill evangelical baptist preacher". He'd received a baptismal certificate and the session did not deny that he was "legally baptized". But at that point, they now refused to give him communion because he was not a formal member of that church. Which was totally hypocritical of them, and they knew that because there were other people at that church who took communion who were not members. And there's nothing in the OPC regulations that says you have to be an OPC member to take communion at an OPC church.

So yes, there were obvious internal problems in that church over who had authority over what. The communion issue came up again, with me; as we had been in one of the child care rooms in the church basement for like 5 years. Another church member; who was the fellow who dealt with the sound system; realized I was down stairs and had not been getting communion, so he started bringing it to me. Well, certain members of the session got their knickers in a knot over him doing that. So they then said we needed to be upstairs with everyone else.

OK??? We had been upstairs 5 years earlier; sitting in the "cry room" at the back of the church (which no one else was using) and were told by the "body life" group that we could not be in there, because our presence was too inconvenient for potential visitors who had babies; (despite the fact that they had a staffed nursery for infants down stairs).

Now my son could not sit in the sanctuary because he was too loud. He went through a phase when he was about 10 or so, when he'd become really frustrated and would throw his Legos. We'd sit in the back of the church with one other person; while my son would line up all his Lego guys on the pew. When he got to the point where he was frustrated and throwing them, I took him in the "cry room". He could sit on the floor, still hear what was going on and set all his Legos up on the floor. He was paying attention to the sermon, because he'd ask me questions about what the preacher was saying. Which obviously, people can't be having conversations about the sermon in the sanctuary during the service. So we'd gone into the basement, and there we'd been for 5 years or so, until someone in the session objected to this other church member bringing me communion.

At that point both the pastor and other members of the session were getting annoyed with these individual's hypocrisy. But of course they would not bring formal charges of discipline or even call them out on it. (I think this one session member and his wife gave a lot of money. And it had become really clear over the years that she did not like me.) So we ended up in the church library (despite the fact that still no one was using the cry room but us). But now at this point, they still refused to give him communion because although now he was "legally baptized" he was still not a member of that church.

At that point; I'd had it and we left.

We'd gone to another community church for about a year before Covid hit. By that point, my son's seizures had gotten to be such an issue that he couldn't stay awake. I'd bought a rocking chair for him that this new church had no issues putting it in the back of the sanctuary; as the chairs that they'd had, were not sufficient to keep him from potentially falling on the floor, when he did fall asleep; or if he had a seizure. At that point he was 6ft 180 lbs and 17 years old; so he needed an accommodation that would keep him physically safe. (I had presented this suggestion to the OPC church before we left; but they refused the idea. They did not want a rocking chair for him in the back of the sanctuary. They didn't think it was necessary.) SMH!

I did like that community church. I'd made a couple of friends. I knew some people who had been there. There was some sort of fall out between them and the pastor. The church was quasi reformed doctrinally / a bit arminian. The pastor was more amillennial personally, but the majority of the people were premillennial dispensationalists. What concerned me the most though; was that that church was headed pentecostal. And that's where I drew the line. It was time to start looking for another church.

Well, everything shut down at that point and it was another 6 months or so before I found the church I'm at now. My son though, has pretty much given up on physically attending a church. He has a couple of Christian gammer groups on the Internet that he "assembles" with for Bible studies.

The elders at the current church; who's "grace life group" I'm a part of, have come over to our house to visit my son. He at this point though; pretty much since the pandemic started, has only left the house in the past nearly 2 years, to go to doctor's appointments. He's been through a slew of med changes. We've both had Covid. (I got pretty sick.) He had "post covid multi system inflammatory syndrome". He got pretty sick but fortunately didn't require hospitalization. I probably saved his life with a natural semblance of Ivermectin and a slew of supplements when the post covid syndrome crashed his immune system. He's OK now; but he still tends to sleep a lot. Med changes have improved that; but at this point he's categorized as "intractable epilepsy" and his seizures aren't exactly under control.

So.... that's where we are.

I'm a 100% service connected disabled veteran and yeah; I probably do "have a lot more time on my hands" than you do.

I do follow global political trends. I'm at least aware of most "conspiracy theories". None of this with Covid and all that's happened is any "surprise" to me. Although the level of political agenda pushing is shocking.

I saw the massive corruption way back in Desert Storm. What was going on "on the ground" was not what they were telling the American people. That was glaringly obvious to me. So yeah, when people started talking about 9/11 being an "inside job"; I listened and took in what they were saying.

The "global satanic / deep state cabal" is a real thing. It is "the beast system" and yes; they are trying by the deceptive hand of men to present the premileenial dispensational narrative to the world. There's a lot of "rabbit holes" one could go down too with Zionism.

After all, all those narratives did come out of the mind of Satan; who's "the prince of the power of the air; the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience". There's a lot of apostasy. A lot of corruption and a lot of deception going on.

Luke 18:
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 

[JM]

Sorry, busy. Haven't been around much.