Eschatology: Let's start here.

The Righterzpen

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Idk if you answer this farther on but how do you explain the beast ruling for 42 months, I don’t think you’ve mentioned that so far?

I just went back and looked at something.

There's two different sets of numbers. One in Daniel is 1290 days and the other in Revelation is 1260 days. The 1260 days is 42 (30 day) months. Where as 1290 is 43 months.

Which has got me digging again here wondering how (assuming) these two numbers are connected.

Now, I had come to a certain conclusion that the 1290 days was related to Herod the Great trying to kill Jesus when he was about 2 years old.

The 1260 in Revelation talks about the sanctuary trodden under foot. Assuming that's connected to the setting up of the abomination of desolation in Daniel. It was set in motion by king Herod for the rejection of the Messiah.

Now assuming those two chapters in Revelation are talking about the same 42 months (which I'm not sure if they are) One 42 month is about the sanctuary being trampled underfoot and the other is about the 1st beast continuing for 42 months. (Does this mean that he's "trampling the temple underfoot"? Assuming it's based on the same number of months.)

So is the beast stopped from trampling the temple at the end of 42 months but the total time between the angel appearing to John the Baptist's father and Herod trying to kill Jesus is 1290 days. (43 months) Is he only allowed to "continue" for 1260 days because the Messiah has left for Egypt? Obviously Herod never "caught up" with Joseph, Mary and Jesus.

Yet we also have a parallel timeline of Jesus's preaching to his death. There's 70 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and Pentecost. 62 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and the Friday before the Crucifixion. This I believe was the day that commenced "the great tribulation". Which ended on Passover (which was Thursday night at midnight) when Jesus encountered the angel of death; (personification of God in His wrath / connected to the atonement). Seven weeks (and two days - because Jesus died on Friday) is Pentecost. 40 days post resurrection is the ascension and 10 days after that is Pentecost. So.... the ascension would have been on on a Friday, seeing how we know Pentecost was on a Sunday? (40 days isn't exactly a whole 6 weeks.)

3.5 years is 1275 days. which is 15 day difference between 1260 days. So if 3.5 years represents the commencement of John appearing in the wilderness. Was it 15 days from then until Jesus was baptized? Starting from Jesus's baptism 1260 days commenced the week before the crucifixion? Thus another (or the) 42 months the beast is allowed to continue? Being a totally different time table than the sanctuary trampled underfoot?

"Book end" parallel prophecies at both the beginning and end of Jesus's life?

Then we have the question of Revelation 13 following Revelation 11 and is one talking about where "the abomination that makes desolate" is "set up" and the following reference where the beast is cast into the Lake of Fire at the end of time. Is that another 3.5 years at the "end end"? The "battle of Gog and Magog" where these "armies" come against the eternal church and is this communist "great reset" agenda the commencement of that? How long will it take this global cabal to actually get to that 3.5 years if it's a literal 3.5 years?

So... more things to ponder. It raises a lot of questions.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Yes to all of the above. Like some other Postmils I believe we are still in the early church with perhaps two or three thousand years before Christ's second coming. The Kingdom advances like one climbing up a mountain, sometimes straight up, other times sideways or even backwards to find another way forward.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Well, I've been listening these past few days to some debates on Pre / Al / Post mill and besides some of the arguments the al-mill person presented (the most poignant point being the second coming of Christ ushers in the end of death. The recreation of the cosmos ends sin, ends the possibility of corruption, ends death.) it seems that both modern post-mil as well as pre-mil are looking for some obvious material manifestation of a "Kingdom" on this earth.

Yet Jesus was very clear that His kingdom is "not of this world". It's a Kingdom that reigns in the hearts and lives of the redeemed; despite the fact that the redeemed are residents living under a totalitarian satanic global system.

Here's the debate I watched.

 
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JM

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Well, I've been listening these past few days to some debates on Pre / Al / Post mill and besides some of the arguments the al-mill person presented (the most poignant point being the second coming of Christ ushers in the end of death. The recreation of the cosmos ends sin, ends the possibility of corruption, ends death.) it seems that both modern post-mil as well as pre-mil are looking for some obvious material manifestation of a "Kingdom" on this earth.

Yet Jesus was very clear that His kingdom is "not of this world". It's a Kingdom that reigns in the hearts and lives of the redeemed; despite the fact that the redeemed are residents living under a totalitarian satanic global system.

Here's the debate I watched.

"not of this world" simply means the Kingdom does not find its authority from the world, the Kingdom doesn't look like a human Kingdom setup by force, it is not temporal.

More here: Post Millennialism safe house

Quote from Postmillennialism: Answering Contrary Texts — The Forerunner Blog

My kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36).

There is great consternation and controversy about what Christ’s Lordship actually means in the real world. Most Christians will not argue with the fact that He does rule our lives. He is the ruler, the Lord, the King of their families and their church. But much beyond that, the idea of Christ’s Lordship begins to fall on deaf ears.

The retort you often hear revolves around the time period when Christ is before Pilate’s inquisition and says, “My kingdom is not of this world.” Let’s put this in context however. Christ was not saying that His kingdom was not manifest in the world. He was saying to Pilate, “My kingdom does not gain its authority from Rome or the Sanhedrin. My authority comes from on high.” Pilate understood this. The irony is that the pagan tyrant understood, but Christians don’t today! So the authority of Christ’s kingdom is not of this world, but nonetheless, the kingdom has invaded the civil realm, the family realm, “the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof” (Psalm 24:1). Every aspect of society is touched by the kingdom of God.

Now how does this work practically? If every time we will confess, “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow … that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” (Philippians 2:10-11) then monarchs, kings, state representatives, congressmen and presidents must bow their knee before God. By what standard will they bow the knee? Yes, it gets back to God’s Law. The kingdom has no place in terms of seeking approval or legitimacy here in the earth. It doesn’t need the president’s approval to exist. Its authority comes from the other world, and therefore it is superior and higher. But the kingdom is manifest in the world and Christ’s Lordship is manifest in the world in the civil realm, in the family, in every aspect of society, economics, science, etc. Christ’s Lordship has the claim.

We are to boldly assert the Crown Rights of Jesus Christ. By virtue of the finished work of Jesus Christ, He has the right to rule. He has the keys to the kingdom of heaven. He has reconciled all things in heaven and in earth, the visible and the invisible, the living and the dead. He rules over all. Christ’s kingdom is comprehensive in scope and absolute in its authority (Jeff Ziegler, God’s Law and Society).

It is true that the kingdom of God is not conceived in minds of earthly humans, smart as they might be. It comes down from heaven. But there is something that has changed since Pilate’s interrogation of Jesus.

When speaking of his kingdom being not of this world, Jesus made His point by saying that He had no servant around to defend him. He was not speaking of angels, for the Father could answer His prayer and send thousands of angels. Christ was talking about men – everybody had deserted Him, even his Apostles. It was quite logical since they could not stand for Jesus because He had yet to die for them on the cross. They had not yet experienced the power of the Holy Spirit filling them.

Since the Church has now received the Holy Spirit, this has changed. Now Jesus has his servants on the earth. Scripture even calls us His “Body” (Romans 12:4-5; 1 Corinthians 12:12-27; Ephesians 5:30) to explain the close relationship. Thus the kingdom of God has reached the earth. Although not of this world, it is in the world. The people of God are called to overcome in the world and not escape this world (Roman Medvid, “Whose Kingdom Is Here?” Predvestnik).
 
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The Righterzpen

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Well... I'm not sure how you reconcile these?

I'd presented this statement:

Well don't Postmil believe some sort of "material / socio / political" manifestation of "His Kingdom" here on earth?

To which this was your reply:

Yes to all of the above. Like some other Postmils I believe we are still in the early church with perhaps two or three thousand years before Christ's second coming. The Kingdom advances like one climbing up a mountain, sometimes straight up, other times sideways or even backwards to find another way forward.

Yet would not an outcropping of some "golden age" of Christianity be a "kingdom of this world"? Jesus also defines "not of this world" as "if it was; my servants would fight". And in the political realm; how does a particular form of ideology become manifest?

The concept of a form of government existing by consent of the people; does give space for a particular form of ideology to become manifest; but that concept existed in the Old Testament too. Moses was instructed to appoint wise men to help him rule the nation. So though that concept (self governance through some form of democratic process); in the fact that it can be found in the Old Testament, doesn't actually make it a "post-millennial concept" / "necessary" manifestation of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Would you call that more a "natural consequence" of how righteous or wicked any given group of people are? (I suppose one could make that argument.)

"not of this world" simply means the Kingdom does not find its authority from the world, the Kingdom doesn't look like a human Kingdom setup by force, it is not temporal.

But this world is temporal. And if you look at history; you see the concept of this "natural consequence" of how just or unjust a group of people are; but what you'll also see is how that changes (obviously assuming the agent of that change is God; despite what side of Pentecost that proverbial "moral pendulum" swung.

He was saying to Pilate, “My kingdom does not gain its authority from Rome or the Sanhedrin. My authority comes from on high.” Pilate understood this. The irony is that the pagan tyrant understood, but Christians don’t today!

Well the fact that Pilate didn't perceive Jesus as being a political danger to Rome, doesn't mean he understood the whole concept of the power of Christ's Kingdom being "not of this world".

There were social factors playing on Pilate too. He was keen enough to understand the political implications of the greed and envy of the Jewish ruling classes. And Pilate had been "around" enough to know here's someone; this entire city, including gentiles, his own wife, members of the legion that occupied Pilate's chain of command. He was keen enough to not just pick up on the social back drop; but also for us to consider Pilate himself likely witnessed first hand that miracles that had happened.

Now obviously at the time of the trial; Pilate didn't totally grasp what he was dealing with. Although I don't believe he was totally clueless either. He certainly did though deal with Jesus in a manner that was a departure from his normal mode of dealing with "political" rabble rousers.

I don't know if you know this historically; but at the time of Jesus's trial, Pilate was on "probation" for how he'd dealt with civil unrest that sprung from rabbis in Galilee that had a political agenda. Barabbas was probably what we'd call "an insurgent". And Pilate in the previous year or so had very brutally put down a rebellion.

Now there were probably other factors going on too. One being eluded to in Luke about Galileans who's "blood was mingled with their own sacrifice". (Pilate sent soldiers into the temple; probably because certain elements of Judaism had murdered people (what history called "blood libel sacrifices"); which if that was the case, I understand why Pilate was so brutal about it. There are records from Greek historians post Babylonian captivity of Jews abducting Greek citizens and sacrificing them in the temple in some weird "oath" to "hate the Greeks" which was connected to the "Greekification" (Hellenized) of Hebrew culture. According to the Jews, the Maccabean revolt was about Greek oppression. The Greeks though had a different take on what was really happening though. Josephus said it was "Greek propaganda". Yet even going back into the Old Testament; Jews were performing human sacrifices.

So, politically / sociologically; Pilate was operating out of that back drop.

But I agree with your premise that a lot of people try to make the Kingdom of God into a political something that it's not.

So the authority of Christ’s kingdom is not of this world, but nonetheless, the kingdom has invaded the civil realm, the family realm, “the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof” (Psalm 24:1). Every aspect of society is touched by the kingdom of God.

And I agree here. Yet, as I mentioned before; how much of that is a natural consequence of societies obeying the law written on their conscience and not necessarily a manifestation of the spreading of the Gospel. I think it could be both / and / or; but how common this was prior to Pentecost? We could only confess that we don't really know; based on sparsity of written record.

Now how does this work practically? If every time we will confess, “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow … that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” (Philippians 2:10-11) then monarchs, kings, state representatives, congressmen and presidents must bow their knee before God. By what standard will they bow the knee? Yes, it gets back to God’s Law. The kingdom has no place in terms of seeking approval or legitimacy here in the earth. It doesn’t need the president’s approval to exist. Its authority comes from the other world, and therefore it is superior and higher. But the kingdom is manifest in the world and Christ’s Lordship is manifest in the world in the civil realm, in the family, in every aspect of society, economics, science, etc. Christ’s Lordship has the claim.

You made an interesting point in the context of Jesus could have just called down a bunch of angels and God demonstrates His authority to supersede the kingdom of satan. And He did that at points. Pharaoh's idiocy at "throwing Egypt under the bus" back in Exodus is a prime example.

So, I'd venture to guess that "my Kingdom is not of this world" has broader application than we are even taking into consideration here.

Since the Church has now received the Holy Spirit, this has changed. Now Jesus has his servants on the earth. Scripture even calls us His “Body” (Romans 12:4-5; 1 Corinthians 12:12-27; Ephesians 5:30) to explain the close relationship. Thus the kingdom of God has reached the earth. Although not of this world, it is in the world. The people of God are called to overcome in the world and not escape this world (Roman Medvid, “Whose Kingdom Is Here?” Predvestnik).

How do believers overcome the world though; in considering the dichotomy between the eternal and the temporal. The reality still remains that a world that is incorruptible and without sin and death is still yet to come. And in looking at that; the post-millennial concept of some "golden age" that appears to be a component of certain peoples' eschatology (pre-mil and dispensationalists are guilty of the same thing) I don't see any "global" evidence of in Scripture.

Granted I know concepts; as well as definitions of post-millennialism has changed over the past 150 years or so; but the "golden age" aspect of it seems as far fetched to me as the pre-mil dispensationalists.
 
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The Righterzpen

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PS: Doug does a poor job in that video. I recommend Heaven Misplaced and Mother Kirk Essays on Church Life. In the Postmil Safe House you will find a ton of material.

As far as the presentation goes; I think all of them had points on their own positions they were weak on. I found the discussion interesting though. Much of the Post-mil and al-mil guys statements I agreed with.

Still though, I think a lot of what the Bible says in regards to prophecy is talking about Jesus's first coming. More so things we can directly identify out of Scripture than Preterist's position based on common historical hypothesis. For example. I think the 7 kings associated with the beast in Revelation 13 is talking about the Herodian dynasty, not the Caesars. There's too many Caesars between Rome annexing Judea and the destruction of the temple; but there are just perfect number of Herod's who ruled Judea between about 25 BC and 70 AD.
 
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Creation was declared good by God don't be a Gnostic, don't be afraid of it, God will redeem it.

What does that have anything to do with creation being affected by the fall? Acknowledging that fact does not make one a gnostic, afraid of creation, or not believing God won't redeem it?

Is that what your concept of post-millennialism hangs on? The "goodness" of creation? Or the "goodness" of humanity? That's not an eschatological question. That's a salvation issue. We are not the ones who can make any of this right.
 
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JM

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Sorry, the "no" was me saying I won't enter into a lengthy debate. Lol

[Alpha and Omega Ministries] Postmillennialism #alphaAndOmegaMinistries
Postmillennialism • Alpha and Omega Ministries - via Podcast Addict via @PodcastAddict

Amil and postmil agree on the timing of the second coming which is at the end of the millennium.

Postmil and premil agree on the nature of the Kingdom.

Premil and amil agree in the decline in society before the second coming.

I just don't see scripture being as negative as Amil and Premil teach. After all "why polish brass on a sinking ship!?!"
 
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The Righterzpen

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Sorry, the "no" was me saying I won't enter into a lengthy debate. Lol

OK

I just don't see scripture being as negative as Amil and Premil teach. After all "why polish brass on a sinking ship!?!"

Not sure what this means? It's my understanding that Post-mill also believes the current cosmos will be recreated; correct? And if that's what you believe; why would that be a negative thing?
 
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JM

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OK



Not sure what this means? It's my understanding that Post-mill also believes the current cosmos will be recreated; correct? And if that's what you believe; why would that be a negative thing?
Amil believes this world will get worse and worse before the Second Coming - so does Premil hence the decline in Christian civilization! The church is infected in defeatist thinking which I deny.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Amil believes this world will get worse and worse before the Second Coming - so does Premil hence the decline in Christian civilization! The church is infected in defeatist thinking which I deny.

Except you didn't answer my question. It's my understanding that post millennialists still believe the current cosmos with be recreated correct?

And if it's going to be recreated; what difference does it make if "Christian civilization" declines or doesn't? If you believe in the sovereignty of God; than you'd have to admit that we don't control any of this anyways. Correct?
 
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The Reformers believed that the Pope was the anti-christ and the Roman Catholic Church was Babylon, spoken of in the book of Revelation. Protestant confessions from the reformation also hold this belief.

Anyone here hold that view or similar?
 
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JM

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Except you didn't answer my question. It's my understanding that post millennialists still believe the current cosmos with be recreated correct?

Define recreation and recreated.

And if it's going to be recreated; what difference does it make if "Christian civilization" declines or doesn't? If you believe in the sovereignty of God; than you'd have to admit that we don't control any of this anyways. Correct?

This is the issue with Amil/Premil. Both don't see a point to the promotion and institution of Christianity into society. BEFORE the advent of modern Premil and Amil the idea that Christianity was the bedrock of society was a given in.

For the Amil/Premil Christ's authority is currently in heaven ONLY when clearly we read, "Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Already, not yet...yada bing bong.

All power....AND IN EARTH.

Amil, Premil and Postmil compared. Not much difference between Post and Amil but enough to make you think.

7 - Postmillennialism, Part 1 (7 of 52)
8 - Postmillennialism, Part 2 (8 of 52)

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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The Righterzpen

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Define recreation and recreated.

Recreation: The entire cosmos as it currently stands, corrupted by the fall; will be recreated as incorruptible with no sin, no death and no potential to be corrupted again. God has overcome the evil that caused the fall in the first place. The "final stage" that evidences that God has overcome evil will be made manifest when the current cosmos is destroyed with fire and recreated incorruptible when Christ returns.

And here's where premillennialism's ginormous error comes out and smacks premillennialists in the face. Moses wanted to see God's face. God said: "You can't; without dying." Anything corrupted by sin can not withstand the presence of the glory of God. God's power is an all consuming fire of anything that is not as holy as He is. And THIS is why the cosmos is recreated. It is the entering into this current realm of Christ in His glory that causes that to happen.

This is why the millennial reign can not be the premillennial understanding of it. Because at the end of the millennium, Satan is loosed to deceive the nations. Satan can not be loosed to deceive the nations in an incorruptible universe because he's already been cast into the Lake of Fire.

For the Amil/Premil Christ's authority is currently in heaven ONLY when clearly we read, "Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Already, not yet...yada bing bong.

All power....AND IN EARTH.

Amil, Premil and Postmil compared. Not much difference between Post and Amil but enough to make you think.

And... because what you perceive would be a display of Christ's power on earth is some sort of "golden age" of Christian ideals on this corrupt and fallen earth? (Yet clearly, that's not how we see things unfolding at least in a socio-geo-political way.) Postmillennialism of the late 18th century noted the same issue; particularly after the French Revolution.

Just because what you think would be "all power given unto me in heaven and earth" doesn't look on earth what you perceive that it should; doesn't mean all power in heaven and earth isn't given to Christ "RIGHT NOW'. Which again "my kingdom is not of this world" doesn't manifest in what carnal human eyes can see.

Which again; who controls all of this? Do you believe that those predestine from the foundation of the world unto election, are a specific group of individuals who's eternal outcome is determined by Christ atoning for their sin? If the elect are predetermined unto redemption and nothing of this world can take that from Christ (or the Father) than all power is given unto Him in heaven and earth. He is the Sovereign Lord over the Kingdom of people that He redeemed. And that authority supersedes all other authority in the cosmos.

Yet "many are called but few are chosen". So thus, we know the numbers of the elect are a minority compared to the overall numbers of humanity. So thus it does make sense to me that we would not see a "golden global age" of Christianity. We do see manifestations of how the redeemed have affected societies. (Or in the very least how the law of God written on the conscience of men has affected the outcome of human civilizations.) But just as I said before; postmillennial teachings just look like a different reiteration of the same material goals as premillennial teachings.

The Scripture is filled with all sorts of language about persecution and martyrdom and none of that changed with the New Testament. So just because what you interpret "all power on heaven and earth" isn't made materially manifest culturally, doesn't mean it ever will. My hope isn't in what's going to happen on this earth.

So.... you posted this thread in Semper Reformanda. And it seems to me the issue you are having, has more to do with the sovereignty of God and how He carries out His redemption plan; than it has to do with comparing eschatological schemas to what's going on in this current heavens and earth.
 
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The Reformers believed that the Pope was the anti-christ and the Roman Catholic Church was Babylon, spoken of in the book of Revelation. Protestant confessions from the reformation also hold this belief.

Anyone here hold that view or similar?

I don't. I don't believe there is one human antichrist. Paul talks about "the spirit of antichrist"; which obviously is Satan. That spirit of rebellion and wickedness manifests in all sorts of people on all levels of society. Some of the most wicked sociopaths have been leaders of nations, churches and social institutions.

So, have there been popes who were the "spirit of antichrist". Yes, of course there have been.

I stumbled across something interesting recently though. Jerome (who came up with the Latin Vulgate translation) believed the heads on the beast were the 1st century Herodian dynasty. I came to that conclusion before I knew Jerome had come to that conclusion also. Apparently, that was a common belief in the early church. And in that historical context; I would agree with him / them. Again though, they aren't the only "antichrists" the world has seen either.

Interestingly though; it's only things that the Herods did that are spoken of in prophetic terms. Particularly Herod the Great and Agrippa I. The book of Acts specifically says that Herod Agrippa I was personally struck down by God. The New Testament says nothing about any other earthly political ruler being personally struck down by God. (Not in relation to Roman rulers at least.) Ironically too; Herod Agrippa I ruled as the sole king of the entire land of Judea for 42 months; from just after Caligula died in January of 41AD to just post Passover of 44 AD. He held a position of authority for a total of 7 years; but was the sole "king of Israel" for almost 3.5 years. There is a bit of a discrepancy between a lunar month / year and how the days calculate out in a solar year. (The Jewish lunar calendar had a leap month every 7 or so years.)

If one were to put a "material world" label on "Babylon" in Revelation. It would be Jerusalem. Rome or the Roman Catholic Church is not the entity that has killed the people of God through the course of the history of written Scripture. Revelation specifically says "Babylon" is "where our Lord was crucified" (outside the gate). Jesus was not crucified in Rome.
 
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