Eschatology: Let's start here.

[wandering misfit]

Up to half a sentence in Rev 20, Matt, 24, 27 and Peter.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well, I think everyone has some valid points as they apply to eschatology and "What about the end / return of Christ?"

As far as what "camp" I fit into "eschatology wise"; I'm not sure there's a category for me. I'm closest to Amillennial / Partial Preterist.

But I'm also finding there seems to be certain types of "duel fulfillment" of prophecy. Things that happened in the first century have parallels in the very end. (Or at least that's what it appears to me; looking at history as how it's unfolded.) Now I will not say dogmatically that I'm correct. I may be; I may not be. All I can say is that I'm finding a lot of "interesting coincidences".

As far as Revelation goes; I find that a lot of what's in Revelation is a pictorial description of things going on / have happened / are happening in the spiritual realm (and heaven) that we don't see.

If anyone is interested in reading about some of the things I've found (as well as how stuff connects to history); here's where my study is posted.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12505087/1/Bible-Study-END-TIMES

 

[Honeymoon]

Up to half a sentence in Rev 20, Matt, 24, 27 and Peter.

Can you give your entire view? And why you believe what you do? Just very interested, I’ve always been taught as a futurist

 

[JM]

Can you give your entire view? And why you believe what you do? Just very interested, I’ve always been taught as a futurist

I recently made the move from Amil to orthodox Preterist Postmillennialism and there is a lot of crossover between the to.

Matthew 23:29-36 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, [30] And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. [31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. [33] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? [34] Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: [35] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. [36] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Verse 36 "All these things shall come upon this generation."

This is the preface to chapter 24 (chapters were arbitrary added don't forget) and for the most part Matthew 24 is the judgement upon Israel for their covenant breaking and unbelief.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Can you give your entire view? And why you believe what you do? Just very interested, I’ve always been taught as a futurist

Obviously there is some "future" fulfillment of the second coming. We aren't living in the new heavens and new earth.

The tricky part becomes understanding what prophecy means what in relation to things that have already happened; over and against the second coming.

 

[Honeymoon]

Obviously there is some "future" fulfillment of the second coming. We aren't living in the new heavens and new earth.

The tricky part becomes understanding what prophecy means what in relation to things that have already happened; over and against the second coming.

So where do you think we’re at exactly?

 

[The Righterzpen]

So where do you think we’re at exactly?

I think we are close to the end of the millennial reign. Scripture says Satan is loosed in the end "to deceive the nations once again" and there's ample evidence of that going on all around us.

If you're interested in reading the research I've done on this? I got a "running" study I've been working on on "End Times". I've found some really interesting stuff in the Bible.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12505087/1/Bible-Study-END-TIMES

 

[Honeymoon]

I think we are close to the end of the millennial reign. Scripture says Satan is loosed in the end "to deceive the nations once again" and there's ample evidence of that going on all around us.

If you're interested in reading the research I've done on this? I got a "running" study I've been working on on "End Times". I've found some really interesting stuff in the Bible.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12505087/1/Bible-Study-END-TIMES

Thanks I’ll definitely check that out.Like I said I’ve always been taught futurist/premillinial but lately I’ve been trying to study for myself

 

[The Righterzpen]

Thanks I’ll definitely check that out.Like I said I’ve always been taught futurist/premillinial but lately I’ve been trying to study for myself

Always good to dig through the Bible yourself and not necessarily "trust" what other people tell you!

 

[Honeymoon]

Always good to dig through the Bible yourself and not necessarily "trust" what other people tell you!

Definitely, so I’m n pg 4 right now, very interesting. Idk if you answer this farther on but how do you explain the beast ruling for 42 months, I don’t think you’ve mentioned that so far?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Definitely, so I’m n pg 4 right now, very interesting. Idk if you answer this farther on but how do you explain the beast ruling for 42 months, I don’t think you’ve mentioned that so far?

I'm not sure I covered that? I'll have to look into it further.

I know I covered "three and a half days" as being the same in Hebrew calendar years as "42 months"; but they could have distinct different meanings. I'll have to see if I can find "42 months" explained anywhere other than Revelation.

If I'm remembering correctly the Hebrew calendar only has 10 months and that's because of their "leap sabbath years" thing.

I believe there is 42 months between the appearance of John the Baptist in the wilderness and the week before the crucifixion.

Also, Revelation says the beast is "allowed to continue" for 42 months which does not mean its "reigning" for 42 months. There's a point to where it (and Satan) is cast into the bottomless pit. But I haven't studied that aspect of it; so I can't say that I know exactly where that fits into the timeline.

It's clear from the context of Revelation that this beast is in existence at the point Revelation is written because "king" number 6 is "reigning". And this beast is in existence until Judgement Day; (at least 2000 years later). So apparently it's a pretty long lived beast.

All the rest of that I haven't "dug through" though; so I can't give you an answer right now on the 42 months. You gave me something else to go dig for though!

 

[The Righterzpen]

but how do you explain the beast ruling for 42 months,

I'll have to do some more digging but here are my preliminary findings:

"42 months" is used only two places; both in Revelation.
Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5

"42" as a stand alone number is only used 5 other places:

1. Numbers 35:5-7 - The Levites were to get 42 cities that were not refuges for man-slayers.
2. 2 Kings 2:24 - She bears kill 42 children for mocking Elijah.
3. 2 Chronicles 2:22 - Ahaziah was 42 years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem.
4. Ezra 2:24 - Azmaveth has forty and two children.
5. Nehemiah 7:28 - The men of Bethazmaveth are forty and two.

Now what the names Ahaziah, Azmaveth and Bethazmaveth mean might give us some clue as to why "42" is important? But I don't see any "off the bat" obvious connections here.

Just had a thought though....

The book of Daniel gives a 1290 number of days. Which is 3.5 years. I figured out that number was connected to Herod the Great trying to kill Jesus when He was a baby / small child.

That number is also "42 months". More specifically 42 months and a week.

Revelation 11:2 talks about the sanctuary being trampled "42 months".
Revelation 13:5 talks about the beast being able to continue "42 months". The only thing that "fits" is this connection to the book of Daniel.

The "abomination that makes desolate" is "standing in the holy place". That's the place the Messiah is suppose to occupy now that He's been incarnated because He is the actual sacrifice. Herod the Great though, wants to be titled "King of the Jews". This is why he's trying to kill Jesus.

Now that fits with the sanctuary "trodden underfoot" "42 months". (Christ is the sanctuary. He eludes to this when He tells them "tear down this temple and I'll raise it on the 3rd day." The temple is His body. He is the sanctuary who's outer court is "trampled under foot" "42 months".

And the beast is allowed to do this for "42 months". I think that's what this means because it's the only thing that "fits".

Now do these other "42"'s fit in here metaphorically? That I don't know.

 

[JM]

Post-Mil Only - Resources

 

[JM]

Here’s something interesting…the Emperor Phocas made a decree claiming the Pope of Rome was the universal Bishop of the church in 606.

John Gill notes; “if to this we add 1,260 the expiration of his reigns will fall in the year 1866, so that he may have upwards of a hundred and twenty years yet to continue; but of this we cannot be certain; however, the conjecture is not improbable.”

Gill might have it correct. Napoleon gave the death blow to political Rome but Rome took some time to fade away. The Pope lost secular authority in 1866.

Wikipedia: “After defeating the papal army on 18 September 1860 at the Battle of Castelfidardo, and on 30 September at Ancona, Victor Emmanuel took all the Papal territories except Latium with Rome. In 1866 he granted Pius IX the Law of Guarantees (13 May 1871) which gave the Pope the use of the Vatican but denied him sovereignty over this territory, nevertheless granting him the right to send and receive ambassadors and a budget of 3.25 million liras annually. Pius IX officially rejected this offer (encyclical Ubi nos, 15 May 1871), retaining his claim to all the conquered territory.” Interesting. Gill seems to have used the book of Revelation to actually predict the last battle Papal Rome would have resulting in the loss of political power.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JM]

Things seem to be getting worse...I'm still Postmil.

 

[klutedavid]

The Son of Man Presented
Dan 7:13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Notice Christ is given power in His ascension, "He came up to the Ancient of Days..." Christ was given, "dominion" and His dominion is everlasting. The Kingdom is now, already and not yet. (see George Ladd)

Not all translations have "He came up to the Ancient of Days..."

 

[The Righterzpen]

Not all translations have "He came up to the Ancient of Days..."

"came to" (or "came and to") the ancient of days..." Is what the Hebrew actually says.

I'm not sure what you mean by not all translations have He "came up"? It's very clear from the context of the passage that this "coming in the clouds of glory" is ascending from earth to the Father.

But if you compare this to Revelation 5:6 "as a lamb having been slain"; I don't think this "coming" is talking about the bodily ascension post resurrection. I think this is talking about the space of time from death to resurrection.

The end of Ephesians 1 is very clear that Jesus has all power and authority put under his feet at the resurrection.

Than I believe it is the Gospel of John: "It is finished.". (What is "it" that's "finished"?) Assuming it has something to do with payment for sin and the wrath of God. If the atonement was finished prior to Jesus actually physically dying because "the last enemy is death" (thus the reason Jesus died) at what point "You have not left my soul in hell" occur?

Go back to Exodus and the angel of death that kills the first born. What did Jesus encounter at midnight? (The angel of death.) That's the only context that fits passover.

The "great tribulation" (as the world has never seen) isn't blood letting, or communist totalitarian satanic global cabal that releases a bio-weapon on humanity funded by a man who also funds torturing puppies for the sake of the "global reset". The world has seen this kind of thing before. Maybe not on a simultaneous global scale; depending on how one would look to define WWII; but that sort of thing isn't "new" to earth.

What is different about "The great tribulation" is that if it was not shortened; no flesh would be saved. Well.... when was flesh saved? Is the atonement now complete? Of course if one says "no" than what would that do the the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice from a redemptive point? He either accomplished the atonement or he didn't.

So, if we look at it from the vanish point of accomplishment of salvation; the only place the "great tribulation' could have fallen was as part of the atonement.

Which makes sense to "immediately after the tribulation of those days is the sun darkened and the moon does not give its light....." What happened the day of the crucifixion? (The sun was darkened). The "great tribulation" ended at noon; 3 or 4 hours before Jesus physically died. His soul was relinquished from hades and ascends to the Father. (Thus Daniel "coming in the clouds of glory to the Ancient of Days".) The "3 hours of darkness" is related to Jesus "as the lamb slain" opening the seals.

His human soul is able to exit the flesh without him dying because he still retains a Divine nature. God can't die; although Christ's flesh technically is missing his soul. He dies when the Divine nature is "rent" (the "veil" of the "temple") from the human nature.

He "rests" in the tomb on Saturday and Sunday morning rises from the dead as a complete individual again.

And all of this happens "before this generation passes".

Now the second coming is a whole other ball of wax; (not really related, but obviously not completely unrelated) to the events of the atonement.

"coming in the clouds of glory" in Matthew 24 isn't talking about the second coming; it's talking about the ascension to the Father at the accomplishment of the atonement.

The second coming is a different event. (One that ushers in the recreation of this heavens and earth.) Which also fits into the end of Ephesians 1 where it says Christ had dominion. The "millennial reign" commenced at the resurrection.

 

[JM]

The church has always been Amil and Postmil, they are not mutually exclusive, but a matter of emphasis.

 

[The Righterzpen]

The church has always been Amil and Postmil, they are not mutually exclusive, but a matter of emphasis.

Well don't Postmil believe some sort of "material / socio / political" manifestation of "His Kingdom" here on earth?

Not that we don't see evidence of how the gospel has changed societies. The Great Awakening of the mid to late 18th century was a prime example of how the spiritual state of groups of people affected such human endeavors as fighting wars. The American Revolution was remarkably different than just about any other war in history; because of the Great Awakening.

But as far as a "recognizable material kingdom"? I suppose that would depend on how one would define that?

I recently found a legend "the Legion of Thebes". Which is a story about a Roman legion sent to Gaul who were told to perform sacrifices to pagan deities who the Roman emperors at the time believed they were the divine sons of. And the command to this legion to kill all the Christians they found in Gaul.

Well the legend is that this legion refused to follow these orders and consequently the entire legion was martyred. There is some historical precedent that this event did actually happen; a bunch of Roman soldiers were martyred in Gaul for being Christians; but whether or not this entire legion was really martyred is at current, lost to human records of history.

So if Post-millennialism believes that the manifestation of God's Kingdom on earth is evidenced in events like this? That does make sense.

But as far as some "global age of Christian ideals" (much as the pre-mil dispensationalists believe too). I don't see that as ever have happened; nor will it happen, based on the fact that the geo-political / social environment of this world is run by Satan.

Now the fact that the proclamation of the gospel is active in removing "citizens" of that "kingdom" and "translating them" "into the Kingdom of His dear Son"; has certainly happened through history. And if we were to make some comparisons of the "social structures" between post Pentecost and say; the era of Noah's flood, I'm sure we'd see some stark differences. But I don't see a "post-mill Kingdom come" as in similar venue as the "pre-mill Kingdom come" utopian type of depiction. I know a lot of religious groups have tried to "materialize" that in communal type organization (like the Quakers) but even the good will of genuine social intentions has limitations.

 

[JM]

Well don't Postmil believe some sort of "material / socio / political" manifestation of "His Kingdom" here on earth?

Yes to all of the above. Like some other Postmils I believe we are still in the early church with perhaps two or three thousand years before Christ's second coming. The Kingdom advances like one climbing up a mountain, sometimes straight up, other times sideways or even backwards to find another way forward.

Yours in the Lord,

jm