Eschatological Views

[Eddielee]

Paladin Valer, please tell us what you think of this passage, and how it relates to an amillennial viewpoint, I want to know how an amillennialist interprets this part of the Bible:
Zechariah 14:
1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime-a day known to the LORD . When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.
9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD , and his name the only name.
10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up and remain in its place, from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.
12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected-great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 On that dayHOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the LORD's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD Almighty.

 

[PaladinValer]

Symbolic and a bit outdated, since Revelation is the chief Christian understanding of the End, not Zechariah.

 

[TenPin]

Symbolic and a bit outdated, since Revelation is the chief Christian understanding of the End, not Zechariah.

I think he means: I refuse to interpret that passage literally even though it is blatantly literally going to happen.

God's word does not get outdated, this world will pass away but God's words will never pass away.
The effects such as flesh and eyes rotting as they stand is exactly the effects of a neutron bomb by the way. I'm not saying it will be a neutron bomb, only that the effects are identical.

 

[TenPin]

Just The Facts

I see your point and it is interesting.

The way things are going I think there will be still be a physical temple on the temple mount which plays a significant role.

Lets just wait and see eh ?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi tenpin

But that is the thing about prophecy we do not have to wait to know. Jesus has told us....sure it is all symbols but if you let the bible explain its own symbols it is very easy to follow.

Where it becomes complicated is when you start letting other people decide what the symbols mean.

 

[PaladinValer]

I think he means: I refuse to interpret that passage literally even though it is blatantly literally going to happen.

I think I mean what I said I did. If you got a problem with this, fine; but don't you dare take a snip at me. Its rather childish and very insulting.

And no, it isn't going to literally happen that way. The fact will always remain: The Early Church did not take the Bible 100% literally. That's not fiction, its truth. And the Early Church condemned chiliasm. Any reading that would imply chiliasm is therefore heretical according to orthodox theology and in my opinion.

God's word does not get outdated, this world will pass away but God's words will never pass away.
The effects such as flesh and eyes rotting as they stand is exactly the effects of a neutron bomb by the way. I'm not saying it will be a neutron bomb, only that the effects are identical.

It doesn't get outdated; it simply gets understood better through the Holy Spirit which guided the Councils (and me) to the anti-chiliast decision.

 

[inhimitrust]

I think he means: I refuse to interpret that passage literally even though it is blatantly literally going to happen.

God's word does not get outdated, this world will pass away but God's words will never pass away.
The effects such as flesh and eyes rotting as they stand is exactly the effects of a neutron bomb by the way. I'm not saying it will be a neutron bomb, only that the effects are identical.

Hmmm. Me thinks you have read too many left behind books and science fiction prophecy books instead of letting God interpret the bible for you. Of course, if I am wrong on this, I apologize, but the bible was written to that age for that age, not ours. It is only because the bible is here for us now that we can truly understand how God indeed worked with His people all thru it, but the main point in it is living for God thru His Son Jesus everday of our lives and helping others to do the same. Looking at the future can also cloud the present, which is with us today, as James said in his epistle, we don't even know what tomorrow will bring. We live according to His will day by day and God guides us in His purpose for each one of us, and that purpose appears to be to bring others to know Him and keep them strong in their faith.

James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit"; 14 whereas you do not know what [will happen] tomorrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you [ought] to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that."

 

[Eddielee]

Ya thats right, I guess when things are written in a literal manner, and it sounds incredible, we shouldn't take it literally... a guy who is God being born a man, in Bethleham, traveling to Egypt, growing up in Nazerith, entering Jerusalem on a donkey 483 years after the command to rebuild the temple, dieing on a cross between two thieves while the sun is blackened out, rising from the grave of a rich man 3 days later and accending into heaven 40 days later... stuff like all of this old testament prophecy shouldn't be taken literally, who would believe that???

Once you start taking words that have literal meaning and giving them symbolic meaning, you start to degrade God's power into mere symbolism.

Zechariah clearly represents literal events:
Zechariah 9:
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your King is coming to you;
He is just and having salvation,
Lowly and riding on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.


Isaiah 53:
1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.


4Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.


7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9And they made His grave with the wicked--
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.


10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
11He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.


Those who would take these passages symbolically would be dead wrong. What justification is there to take the literal words of Zechariah and make them only symbolic? Only to safeguard a theory, not to see what the Bible actually says.

 

[PaladinValer]

Oh, so now that I don't take the Bible 100% literally, I must be wrong. If so, then the Early Church was wrong too since they didn't take the Bible 100% literally either! That isn't just my opinion, its a fact.

And the Church condemned chiliasm in the Ecumenical Councils. This is why I don't agree with premillennialism; because the Holy Spirit inspired the Church to denounce it. And I will stand by the Church until death; so will the other Anglicans, Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Methodists, and others who uphold the Creeds and Councils as they should. Even many non-Creedal denominations like the Disciples of Christ recognize that they established orthodox doctrine and faith, even if they won't base their beliefs on them.

The Church has been amillennialist since Pentecost. Biblical proof? Here we go: Revelation was nearly rejected for the Canon due to chiliast interpretations. The Eastern half of the Church especially was adamant against its inclusion. It took Western persuasion and interpretation before the East accepted it and hence, its entrance into the Holy Canon. It was chiliasm, not amillennialism, that nearly kept Revelation from the Canon. The Reformation? Luther was so much against chiliasm, that he wanted to rip the entire book of Revelation out of the Canon!

Chiliasm didn't return until Darby and his translation of the Bible in the 1800's. Even then, it wasn't widely accepted until literalism swept through Protestantism and Calvinism in the early 1900's.

This is history; not conjecture.

Lastly, symbolism is extremely powerful; often more than literal words. Just because you reject symbolism doesn't mean its power is gone. The Early Church saw its power in accepting Revelation into the Holy Bible Canon, and so do I. The Bible is chuck full of symbols, metaphores, euphamisms, hyperboles, and other non-literal forms of communication; ignore them and IMO, you cannot ever be able to truly get much out of the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Curt]

The humour and irony is so palpable I can taste it. From what I have seen you are pretty good at filling the screen with Scripture - but not much interpretation and logical thought.

Hallalujah vinsight4u, you just keep on posting Scripture, and let those who are disobedient to these Scriptures, set their own course until The Holy Spirit quickens The Truth contained in those Scriptures to them, in the mean time pray that their eyes will be opened. It is truly a blessing to be scoffed at and scorned by the deceived, that when you know you are proclaiming God's Truth.

1 Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Prov 3:5-8 TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL THINE HEART, LEAN NOT TO YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING, BE NOT WISE IN YOUR OWN EYES
.
II Tim 3:16-17 ALL SCRIPTURE BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND PROFITABLE, THAT THE MAN OF GOD BE PERFECT

2 Pet 1:20 NO PROPHECY OF THE SCRIPTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION

2 Sam 14:14 NEITHER DOTH GOD RESPECT ANY PERSON

Job 37:24 HE RESPECTETH NOT ANY THAT ARE WISE OF HEART.

Deut 6:6-9
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
(KJV)

John 17:22-23 BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE

James 1:22-25 BUT BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD, AND NOT HEARERS ONLY
Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Josh 24:15
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
(KJV)

But put ye on the Lord Jesus, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14)."

"There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end is death (Proverbs 16:25)."

"The way which leads to life is narrow, and few find it (Matthew 7:14)."

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6a)."

 

[heavenliejediofthebeach]

pretribber

 

[inhimitrust]

Hi tenpin

But that is the thing about prophecy we do not have to wait to know. Jesus has told us....sure it is all symbols but if you let the bible explain its own symbols it is very easy to follow.

Where it becomes complicated is when you start letting other people decide what the symbols mean.

You mean others like yourself JTF?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Inhim

No I mean people who say 1,000 years is not 1,000 years it is 40 years or maybe just the time between here and here. Or one of a dozen other changes they make to plain scripture in their doctrine.

The Difference is one lets the Bible explain itself and the other is a persons interpretation of scripture.

 

[inhimitrust]

Hi Inhim

No I mean people who say 1,000 years is not 1,000 years it is 40 years or maybe just the time between here and here. Or one of a dozen other changes they make to plain scripture in their doctrine.

The Difference is one lets the Bible explain itself and the other is a persons interpretation of scripture.

The 1000 years in revelation is what confuses people the most, though the rest of it is pretty clear. The believers that the prophecy was written to knew what it represented and believe me, it wasn't written for our "age".
The bible indeed explains itself pretty clear to me and I am happy with it, but even happier that God came into my life and showed me the true way to happiness and peace thru His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
If you don't believe God and Christ kept their words to their followers of that age, then I guess you can believe that way, but more are beginning to see it that way along with my family and ones we know and love, and I thank God for that.

 

[good4u]

Hi good for You

I have studied the Lie of pre trib rapture before even believed in it for a while, before I actually started to study the subject myself then the lies of all those accumulated teachers started to shine through.

tell you what you list ten verses that you say show this and i will show you how you have misunderstood every one of them.

JTF,

Apparently you don't have your "facts" straight! LOL

I am not a pre trib proponent. In fact, as you correctly state it is indeed a lie. And those who adhere to it will be very unprepared if the 70th week begins. God help them for they will be sitting ducks for the Anti-Christ.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Good

quote
Yep, I understand. But you are dead wrong and biblically inaccurate. But then you are entitled to your opinion. I prefer what the totality of what the Scripture teaches. And indeed, the pre-wrath position fits ALL Scripture beautifully and awesomely.
End Quote

Sorry I read that statement as Pre trib I see now that you mistakenly see wrath only as the seventh bowl or as the bowls. You do not seethe Trumpets as Wrath which they plainly are. Is that correct

 

[Covenant Heart]

We declare for a Gospel-Age millennium. Regarding the gospel apocalypse, orthodox preterist. As for the Revelation, we claim neither the historist, the continual-historical nor the futurist views. We call the Ideal interpretative system as our own. A key part of John’s strategy is the creation of a symbolic world in which he redirects our imaginative response to the world and life in it.

The Revelation is an apocalypse, a prophecy, an epistle and a worship manual at the same time. Justice must be done to this work according to each genre. Sadly, few today have any interest in literary form. But we recently found this article http://www.kchanson.com/ARTICLES/blood.html . Of course people here would scoff the suggestion of comparing the Revelation to Leviticus (be the author ever so scholarly)! Leviticus somehow lacks the entertainment value of the Revelation.

John’s vision is a majestic and above all a profoundly theological work that, in our view, is the answer to secularity (a modern-day heresy) that now bestrides God’s people. Although a work of great magnificence, the Revelation is reduced to a prophetic odyssey, to a surrealistic collage of predictions that (oddly enough) all seem to converge on our time. It is quite sad, and in this writer’s view, God’s church will not move forward until this mistake is corrected. Blessings!

Covenant Heart

 

[good4u]

Hi Good

quote
Yep, I understand. But you are dead wrong and biblically inaccurate. But then you are entitled to your opinion. I prefer what the totality of what the Scripture teaches. And indeed, the pre-wrath position fits ALL Scripture beautifully and awesomely.
End Quote

Sorry I read that statement as Pre trib I see now that you mistakenly see wrath only as the seventh bowl or as the bowls. You do not seethe Trumpets as Wrath which they plainly are. Is that correct

No, your still not understanding what the pre-wrath position is, sorry to say. Once the tribulation by the Anti-Christ of Christians is cut short by the return of Christ and the church is raptured anything after that is God's terrible wrath on those who remain. I gather you do not understand a pre-wrath position which is revealed in your anwers. I suggest you bone up on exactly what the pre-wrath teaches and it will be answered for you.

 

[inhimitrust]

JTF,

Apparently you don't have your "facts" straight! LOL

I am not a pre trib proponent. In fact, as you correctly state it is indeed a lie. And those who adhere to it will be very unprepared if the 70th week begins. God help them for they will be sitting ducks for the Anti-Christ.

Pretrib, midtrib, posttrib, prewrath, mid wrath, post wrath, partial preterist, full preterist on and on and on.
One of these days the whole church of God will just think as one body and instead of being concerned about futuristic prophecies, be more concerned about bringing those to Christ whom God is trying to call and He will do the rest.
JTF, can you really seriouly look around this world today and believe revelation is applying to a far future? Do people ever really read word for word, digesting each word and sentence to really see what it represents? I mean really looking deeply at it. You also will understand more of the OT prophets a lot better and know what they were prophecying about, and I am at peace believing God's words the way I do.
I first read thru the gosples when I started reading the bible, then revelation (yes it was scary the first time) before I even started reading the OT as this is what God drew me to do, then started on the OT, always putting myself back in those times to experience what those people were, both as hebrews in the OT and when Jesus and Paul were preaching in the NT, both in the place of the religious rulers and the common "lost sheep" that they were talking to.
In this way, your whole perspective of looking at the bible will change and you will see it is all about God coming to dwell with His people thru His spirit, how He hates sin, and then cleansing us of our sins thru the blood of His Son. We inherit the same promises as they inherited thru Christ, and you can look at everything either past or future, but it still amounts to the same thing, faith and love in Jesus and the promise of being resurrected to eternal life thru God's holy spirit. And we are commissioned to bring others to Christ just as they did and let the light of Christ shine thru us, knowing in faith that God will always protect us, and that is why I can read revelation either way and feel comforted knowing God will be with me no matter what.
I don't believe true christians in Christ and with the spirit of God worry about future prophecies, as we are already comforted and keep others comforted in His name. Just reading the bible itself is like being sourround by God's arms and why I focus on God and His Son more than I do about futuristic prophecies.
BTW JTF, I don't go to any sites except to read translations of the bible and use online lexicons, and the only other book I read is Oswald Chambers on descipling for Christ, as I am doing my own translation of Paul's letters and book of Hebrews, so please don't insinuate what I read or look at. If I really wanted to read, I would read about early church history near the first century and what it was like back then, and someday I may find time to do that. Just have fun with your prophecies and keep your spirit strong in Christ and God and others also, that is the most important thing for all of God's chosen. You are a fellow brother in the Lord so I won't argue or say anything against what you say, as you just look at the bible a different way than I do. Peace and love to you.

 

[FreeinChrist]

No, your still not understanding what the pre-wrath position is, sorry to say. Once the tribulation by the Anti-Christ of Christians is cut short by the return of Christ and the church is raptured anything after that is God's terrible wrath on those who remain. I gather you do not understand a pre-wrath position which is revealed in your anwers. I suggest you bone up on exactly what the pre-wrath teaches and it will be answered for you.

This interpretation of 'cut short' is one reason (of very many) that I do not beleive the prewrath view.

Mark has it like this:
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
God did not give a false prophecy in regards to the number of days the AC is given power. We learn in Isaiah that God knew the end from the beginning.
A more correct understanding of Matthew 24:22, IMHO, is that God 'shortened the days' in that He set a limit of days, not that He prophesied a set of days and then will surprize by making it less.