Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Dave L]

This is a flat out denial of about a fourth of the Old Testament.

You are making the same mistake the Pharisees made. They invented the Millennium and Jesus proved them wrong throughout the gospels.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You are making the same mistake the Pharisees made. They invented the Millennium and Jesus proved them wrong throughout the gospels.

Yep.
And they paid the ultimate penalty in 70AD

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @

..............................Revelation 19

Hallelujah and Its Hebrew Meaning - Israel Study Center
“Hallelu” (הללו) and “Yah” (יה).

1 After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
"HalleluYah! the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God;
2 That true and righteous His judgings, that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom, and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand".
3 And a second time they have declared<4483> "HalleluYah! and the smoke of Her is ascending into the ages of the ages!"
======================

 

[Erik Nelson]

look at the Greek

two different words mean to different things

kingdom and millennium are distinct concepts

basic vocabulary concept

 

[Dave L]

This is a flat out denial of about a fourth of the Old Testament.

“Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,” Luke 24:45 (NASB95)

Did this result in embracing the Pharisee's doctrine of the Millennium? Most would think so. But then the Pharisees would have taught Jesus a few things.

 

[Erik Nelson]

“Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,” Luke 24:45 (NASB95)

Did this result in embracing the Pharisee's doctrine of the Millennium? Most would think so. But then the Pharisees would have taught Jesus a few things.

the Pharisees believed in a coming messianic world king, were they (completely) wrong about that too? The notion of a millennium age of the Church is obviously part of revelation

 

[Dave L]

the Pharisees believed in a coming messianic world king, were they (completely) wrong about that too? The notion of a millennium age of the Church is obviously part of revelation

The Millennium is temporal. Jesus' kingdom is without end and began with his first advent.


“And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” Luke 1:31–33 (KJV 1900)

“But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” Luke 11:20 (KJV 1900)

 

[BABerean2]

The notion of a millennium age of the Church is obviously part of revelation

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

How will mortals survive the "flaming fire" at the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

Did Peter say the fire comes on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

.

 

[Biblewriter]

the Pharisees believed in a coming messianic world king, were they (completely) wrong about that too? The notion of a millennium age of the Church is obviously part of revelation

It was only in the Revelation that we were told that this coming kingdom would last 1000 years. But many chapters of the Old Testament are devoted to descriptions of a coming kingdom on this earth. Those who deny that this kingdom is indeed coming on this earth are denying a very large amount of explicitly stated scripture.

 

[Biblewriter]

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

How will mortals survive the "flaming fire" at the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

Did Peter say the fire comes on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

.

Rather than argue with you, I will simply quote explicitly stated scripture.


15 For behold, the LORD will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The LORD will judge all flesh; And the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says the LORD. 18 "For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD. 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. Isaiah 66:15-22

 

[Erik Nelson]

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

How will mortals survive the "flaming fire" at the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

Did Peter say the fire comes on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

.

I don't understand what you're getting at

Insofar as all that refers to very ultimate FJ, after Gog & Magog, after the Millennium, then of course that's the end of earth history as we now know it

Meanwhile, the entire chronology of the Church from the Cross echoes & recapitulates:

1. Passover Lamb = Crucifixion
2. Moses receives the Law = Pentecost (Restoring the Three Thousand - Israel Bible Weekly)
3. 40 years wilderness wanderings = 30-70 AD
4. Joshua I conquers Jericho w/ 7 trumpets = 7 trumpets of Revelation vs. "Babylon"
5. centuries later David & Solomon acquire the full Promised Land, Jerusalem & build temple = Constantine / Constantinople / Hagia Sophia
6. Millennium = 4th-15th centuries
7. Gog & Magog = modern age (Fall of Constantinople 1453 AD, Sack of Rome 1527 AD to present)
8. FJ = Biblically soon

 

[Erik Nelson]

It was only in the Revelation that we were told that this coming kingdom would last 1000 years. But many chapters of the Old Testament are devoted to descriptions of a coming kingdom on this earth. Those who deny that this kingdom is indeed coming on this earth are denying a very large amount of explicitly stated scripture.

Kingdom & Millennium are two different words in Greek, for two different concepts

Millennium is just one high water mark phase age of the Kingdom, which is everlasting from Christ forevermore

People can (and evidently will) deny Scripture all they (for some strange bizarre anomalous reason) want, but Scripture hasn't failed yet once in 2000 years

Ergo, I trust Scripture more than anyone else who is not able to predict >2000 years into the future

What will be the weather next week, right here on "our" own home planet earth? Next month??

 

[Erik Nelson]

How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

How will mortals survive the "flaming fire" at the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

Did Peter say the fire comes on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

.

You cannot Scripturally deny that there are two (2) resurrections, separated by (more than) a thousand years

However, the main event general Resurrection at FJ covers the vast super majority of humanity, righteous & wicked, all at once

There was a prior "mini special resurrection" before the Millennium (more than) a thousand years earlier, for martyrs for the faith (cp. "blood of the martyrs was the seed of the Church")

They "live and reign with Christ" so Christ is clearly mystically present during the Millennium ("Parousia")...

The Virtuous Heavenly Woman (Rev 12) gave birth to a man-child before the Cross...

he grows to manhood and returns in triumph (Rev 19) to take His rightful Millennial reign

Just as the Harlot Woman symbolizes a group (apostate Jerusalem Judaism), and as the Virtuous Woman symbolizes a group (righteous remnant of Israel & original Jewish core of the Church), so the Christian Conqueror also symbolizes a group = Church as "body of Christ on earth" something like "Voltron":

As the veritable "body of Christ on earth", the Church "like Voltron" (symbolically) overcame the pagan Roman empire in the 4th century AD, defeating the 10th & final horn king of the beast = Julian the Apostate:

Persecution in the Early Church (Nero = 6th "head", Domitian thru Julian = 10 persecuting "horns") [check]

New Jerusalem (Constantinople), New Temple (Hagia Sophia), Millennium of "1000 year Christian empire" of Byzantium (according to every history textbook in this star system) [check]

modernity era = Gog & Magog [check]

FJ = Biblically Soon = full fledged fiery 2C and general Resurrection of virtually almost everyone (except for those few special elect like St. Paul and the Apostles and patron saints whose blood bought & built the beginnings of the Church in the first place) with slagged continents, boiled oceans, and a resulting LoF

 

[Erik Nelson]

The Millennium is temporal. Jesus' kingdom is without end and began with his first advent.


“And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” Luke 1:31–33 (KJV 1900)

“But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” Luke 11:20 (KJV 1900)

yes, exactly, the one is but one phase / age / era / epoch / timespan of the other

 

[Dave L]

yes, exactly, the one is but one phase / age / era / epoch / timespan of the other

But Jesus refutes millennialism throughout the gospels.

 

[mkgal1]

But Jesus refutes millennialism throughout the gospels.

Dave - do you mean He refuted a literal physical kingdom on earth? Is that what you mean by "millennialism"? ISTM there has to be some explanation of the phrase/term used in Rev 20:4 - 6.

 

[Dave L]

Dave - do you mean He refuted a literal physical kingdom on earth? Is that what you mean by "millennialism"? ISTM there has to be some explanation of the phrase/term used in Rev 20:4 - 6.

Yes, Jesus taught the kingdom is spiritual and only the born again can see it.

 

[Erik Nelson]

But Jesus refutes millennialism throughout the gospels.

Jesus does not contradict Revelation 20, correct ?

In His own 1st century AD, the "Kingdom" was spiritual and only the born again were aware of it

Centuries later, in the "Millennium", the whole world knew of the "Kingdom" because the Church had "surfaced" and gained societal primacy, having overcome the pagan Roman empire

again, "Millennium" and "Kingdom" are two different words, Chiloi etos (G5507 G2904) vs. Basilea (G932)

Kingdom is a social group on earth, 1000 years is a time span

 

[Dave L]

Jesus does not contradict Revelation 20, correct ?

In His own 1st century AD, the "Kingdom" was spiritual and only the born again were aware of it

Centuries later, in the "Millennium", the whole world knew of the "Kingdom" because the Church had "surfaced" and gained societal primacy, having overcome the pagan Roman empire

again, "Millennium" and "Kingdom" are two different words, Chiloi etos (G5507 G2904) vs. Basilea (G932)

Kingdom is a social group on earth, 1000 years is a time span

The 1000 years represent Satan's binding, not the kingdom. He attacks the kingdom when loosed.

 

[mkgal1]

The 1000 years represent Satan's binding, not the kingdom. He attacks the kingdom when loosed.

I believe the question was focused on the teachings of Jesus and how they line up with Rev 20. There has to be consistency between the two. ***I may be wrong, but that is how I read Erik's post.

 

[Dave L]

I believe the question was focused on the teachings of Jesus and how they line up with Rev 20. There has to be consistency between the two.

They are consistent.

A sketch would be;

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel); The gospel sent to the whole world.

the 1000 years = Satan bound from deceiving the elect. The saints rule over him. the 1000 years end = Satan loosed.

Note the 1000 years are not the kingdom. It is still here when the 1000 years end. Satan attacks the kingdom when they end and he is loosed.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in = immanent return of Christ) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

“Jesus said, “This voice has not come for my benefit but for yours. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.” (John 12:30–31)

So in essence, Revelation 20 is a panorama of the entire New Covenant era. Not a physical kingdom of the future.