Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[BABerean2]

Peter was Jesus closest friend and Peter said that one day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as one day - the notion that you can decide for yourself when the 1000 years begins and ends is in total disagreement with scripture , but then so is the amil doctrine , .....pretrib, mid trib, and post trib are all premil

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:



Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Thanks.

You did, however, neglect to include the final two sentences of Jerome's commentary regarding Apollinarius:

"Moreover this same Apollinarius asserts that he conceived this idea about the proper dating from the fact that Africanus, (p. 549) the author of the Tempora [Chronology], whose explanation I have inserted above, affirms that the final week will occur at the end of the world. Yet, says Apollinarius, it is impossible that periods so linked together be wrenched apart, but rather the time-segments must all be joined together in conformity with Daniel's prophecy."

From other commentary by contemporary authors, it appears that Apollinarius' dating and methodology considered the 70 weeks to be contiguous, with the final week corresponding to the end of the world, at a date very approximately two centuries in the future from when he wrote. There is thus some similarity to the methodologies of Irenaeus and Hippolytus.

We know that the 70 week end dates postulated by all of these brethren passed uneventfully.

Justinian built the Hagia Sophia right around 500 AD, right at the start of the 7th "Sabbath" Millennium after Creation (5500 BC per LXX)

 

[seventysevens]

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
.

You still only accept scripture that you prefer and not all of scripture resulting in cherry picking what you like and rejecting what you do not like

 

[Erik Nelson]

Keep in mind, scripture mentions only two worlds. This present evil world. And the world to come. A physical Millennium does not fit in this present evil world because Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. It doesn't fit in the world to come either. The kingdom is forever, not just 1000 years. And in the world to come everything is perfect without the sin and death the physical millenium has.

The truth is, the Kingdom arrived with Jesus in his first advent. It is spiritual, and centered in heaven where Jesus now sits on David's throne at the Father's right hand. And the resurrection on the last day is the restoration of Israel, those who accepted Christ, where they live forever in the New Heavens and earth.

Yes, the kingdom arrived with Jesus

it remained a marginalized fringe movement, on the periphery of society, for several centuries in the "spiritual Wilderness"...

before winning over society after Constantine in the 4th-5th centuries AD, with Byzantium (and medieval Europe) being expressly Christian kingdom(s) for the next 1000 years

the kingdom arrived with Jesus
it remained a minority fringe movement for several centuries of "spiritual Wilderness Wanderings"
before it won over the Greco-Roman world, becoming the majority movement, as it "entered the spiritual Promised Land" of the Millennium

thus, a Millennium of Christian-dominated society, growing out naturally from the Christian sub-culture begun with Jesus, accords both with your statement, that "the kingdom began with Christ", as well as with the notion that the Millennium occurs in this physical world, not the world to come.

you're correct (the kingdom began with Christ), and the other view is not inconsistent with yours

 

[Erik Nelson]

As to those verb tenses in relation to reigning with Christ a thousand years, they tend to tell me that they got over the beast in the past, and because they did, they then are rewarded with reigning with Christ a thousand years. And since these would initially be physically dead, that reigning with Christ only makes sense if reigning with Christ on the earth. The only way that is possible at that point, Christ eventually returns, thus the 2nd coming, which in turn leads to the first resurrection, where they then reign with Christ on the earth a thousand years. Otherwise that places their reigning with Him a thousand years in heaven instead, which makes no logical nor Scriptural sense.

the Millennium describes a Christian-dominated society in which Christ reigns socially supreme through the Church

the Saints could then rule on thrones in heaven with Christ in heaven also

 

[seventysevens]

the Millennium describes a Christian-dominated society in which Christ reigns socially supreme through the Church

the Saints could then rule on thrones in heaven with Christ in heaven also

In the OT it was the people on earth saying they want a King on earth , God told them that He is their King and they did not need
a king on earth but men said they want a king on earth , so God gave them what they asked for , even though God had always planned to be their King on earth , though it had to be done on the Lords timetable which means that people have their incorruptible body , but men would not understand yet , just as Jesus said in His time that his time was not yet , but it would come in his time , When Jesus returns , His Kingdom come , will result in both what men have wanted and God has planned from the beginning - that King Jesus will rule and reign with His people on earth , there is no reason for it not to be that way , but for those that must spiritualize they feel it must be from heaven only and not on earth , for no reason other than that is what they are taught but it is not what Jesus nor scripture has taught

 

[Erik Nelson]

Still no answer to my questions.....

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
So what is your view of the hour and half hour?
And is the "rapture" showing in Revelation?..........

Revelation 8:1
When He opened the seventh seal,
and became a hush/silence/sigh<4602> in the Heaven for about half an hour.
Revelation 18:19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by Her wealth!
For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.'

if 1 day = 1000 years
and 1 day = 24 hours
then 1 hour = 50 years

the delay from Crucifixion to Titus & Vespasian was 40 years,
about a Biblical hour

 

[Dave L]

Well you can believe that if you want to , but what you choose to ignore is , it is not all symbols ,
Angels are warriors as well and just one angel can kill 180,000 people by himself , angels are far more than just messengers -they do have the power to open the abyss and let demons out and also the power to cast satan into the abyss empowered by Jesus command .

The spiritual realm IS the eternal realm , they are the same , and they do have physical characteristics and physical bodies , people that choose to believe that the eternal realm/spiritual is not physical just do not understand what the Holy Bible has taught ,
ALL scripture fits together , for point and purpose , humankind does not see or truly experience the eternal realm in the corruptible body , but when the body is changed into an incorruptible body , it then is a physical body that can experience the eternal physical realm ,
amil fails to understand this simple matter and is dependent on symbolizing everything - scripture tells us in several ways that satan is a roaming the earth deceiving people everyday - to this very day there has never been a day when satan cannot deceive people , and the only person that has the power to lock satan in prison is God , hence that when Jesus physically returns he then at that time casts as in grabs hold of satan and casts satan into prison -

your total dependency of allegorizing and symbolizing is where your ideas fail , When Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world , He is saying that when he returns He brings His Kingdom to this earth and then His Kingdom will be in this world, just as when Jesus said that you are not of this world but set apart from this world and sanctified and are in this world but not of this world.

satan will be imprisoned when Jesus returns to this world and that while Jesus reigns this world people will experience what it is like to live under a righteous King - then when satan is loosed people that have not the eternal glorified body and who can be deceived will be tempted by satan for that short time that he is loosed from prison - as the scripture clearly says he will go out to deceive who he can , just like when satan deceived 1/3 of the angels in heaven that did experience rule under a righteous King , then satan and those he he has deceived are cast into the lake of fire .

Peter was Jesus closest friend and Peter said that one day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as one day - the notion that you can decide for yourself when the 1000 years begins and ends is in total disagreement with scripture , but then so is the amil doctrine , .....pretrib, mid trib, and post trib are all premil

Do you expect to see any red dragons floating around in outer space anytime soon? Or any of the other symbols, green horses, huge serpents, etc.?

 

[seventysevens]

Do you expect to see any red dragons floating around in outer space anytime soon? Or any of the other symbols, green horses, huge serpents, etc.?

That nonsense is expected of you and those that seek to avoid common sense - amils go to the extreme ends of nonsense showing no interest in logical sensibility , while you choose to symbolize everything , in a failed attempt to rationalize going to the xtreme to avoid going to the rational sensibility in recognizing where it is appropriate and when it is nonsensical

 

[DavidPT]

The problem with turning the 1000 years into an exact measure of time, instead of seeing it as a symbol of a complete, predetermined measure of time, is that people know what only the Father knows. The time of the end. And the pre-tribbers say the end happens 1007 years from the rapture.

You are not even making sense here. Even per the view that the thousand years are meaning in this age, the end doesn't come at the finishing of the thousand years. When the thousand years are finished the text indicates satan is loosed for a little season.
The text doesn't indicate the length of that little season though. It could be meaning months, years, decades, centuries----who knows? How could anyone possibly know the length of the little season and when it ends? But that doesn't matter anyway as far as Premil is concerned. That day and hour that knoweth no man, that is meaning the end of this age, and not the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

He can't put down all rule and all authority and power, before the time of the white throne judgment. Once the white throne judgment is over with and in the past, Jesus no longer has a reason to be reigning in the sense He was. He will still be reigning though, just not in a sense that involves judgment. etc. The white throne judgment obviously involves judgment. That obviously involves having all rule and all authority and power. The end, therefore, per 1 Corinthians 15:24 can't precede the white throne judgment.

Here's how I view the symbols of Rev. 20:

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel) Satan is a liar and the gospel sent to all nations keeps him from deceiving them.

the 1000 years = A complete and perfect allotment of time. The New Covenant era until the last of the elect (names written in the book of life) come in from among the nations.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the nations deceived and the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

If I weren't currently Premil I could likely accept your interpretation here. It at least seems reasonable, unlike your conclusions I initially addressed in this post.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

if 1 day = 1000 years
and 1 day = 24 hours
then 1 hour = 50 years

the delay from Crucifixion to Titus & Vespasian was 40 years,
about a Biblical hour

from a partial preterist perspective,......... If mikros chronos <= 500 years...
If so, Earth is already (slightly) "over due"

Being Partial Preterist and past Amill [so far], I would say it is about 2000yrs overdue.........

Mark 1:15
And saying, "Has been filled the Time, and has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448> the Kingdom of the God.
Be ye reforming/repenting! and be ye believing! in the Good-Message.

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things/pantwn <3956> yet the End Has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>;
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>;

Romans 13:11
And this knowing the time, that hour it-is already out of sleep to be roused, for now nearer/egguteron <1452> of us the Salvation than when we believed.
12 The Night progresses, the yet Day has drawn nigh/hggiken <1448>.
We should be putting off then the works of the Darkness, we should be putting on the implements of the Light.

Revelation 12:10
And I hear great voice saying in the Heaven "now became the Salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him,
that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the accusing them in sight of the God of us day and night.

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been Written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
for the Time is nigh/egguV <1451>.

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
For the Time Is-nigh/egguV <1451>

Daniel 12:4
And thou, O Daniel, hide the things, and seal the Scroll till the time of the end,
many do go to and fro, and knowledge is multiplied.'

 

[DavidPT]

If the following is literally true-----that one day is as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day---then so must the following be literally true, the former being from our perspective, the latter being from God's perspective----that one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If one wants to argue the latter is not literally true, then so must they argue the former isn't literally true either. Per the former, one day doesn't equal 48 hours, nor 72 hours, so on and so on. It equals 24 hours. In the same way, a day to the Lord doesn't equal 2000 years, nor 3000 years, so on and so on, the text plainly indicates it is a thousand years. A thousand years and 2000 years are not the same amount of years. A 5th grader would likely know that.

 

[brinny]

What comes to mind for me is that Jesus Himself said that no one knows the time or the day but the Father, and that in light of this, that we are to be "ready", always.

It is also written that He will come as a "thief in the night".

 

[seventysevens]

If the following is literally true-----that one day is as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day---then so must the following be literally true, the former being from our perspective, the latter being from God's perspective----that one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If one wants to argue the latter is not literally true, then so must they argue the former isn't literally true either. Per the former, one day doesn't equal 48 hours, nor 72 hours, so on and so on. It equals 24 hours. In the same way, a day to the Lord doesn't equal 2000 years, nor 3000 years, so on and so on, the text plainly indicates it is a thousand years. A thousand years and 2000 years are not the same amount of years. A 5th grader would likely know that.

Yep agreed , and amil will never admit it because to admit is to admit that amil doctrine is not valid

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

DavidPT said: ↑
If the following is literally true-----that one day is as 24 hours, and 24 hours as one day---then so must the following be literally true, the former being from our perspective, the latter being from God's perspective----that one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If one wants to argue the latter is not literally true, then so must they argue the former isn't literally true either. Per the former, one day doesn't equal 48 hours, nor 72 hours, so on and so on. It equals 24 hours. In the same way, a day to the Lord doesn't equal 2000 years, nor 3000 years, so on and so on, the text plainly indicates it is a thousand years. A thousand years and 2000 years are not the same amount of years. A 5th grader would likely know that.

Yep agreed , and amil will never admit it because to admit is to admit that amil doctrine is not valid

I tend to agree.
I thought the Amill doctrine taught they are already in the 1000 yr period.
Now that I know that is not the case, I will have to reassess whether to go back to preterism, which I have been since coming the Christ........

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/amillennialism-safe-house.8071393/
Amill safe house

I am interested in the idea of Partial Preterism being combined with Amillennialism.

 

[BABerean2]

You still only accept scripture that you prefer and not all of scripture resulting in cherry picking what you like and rejecting what you do not like

You have turned the above into an art-form.

Why don't you explain how your doctrine conforms with 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:18, instead of finding fault with other members of this forum?

We await your explanation of those texts...

.

 

[seventysevens]

What comes to mind for me is that Jesus Himself said that no one knows the time or the day but the Father, and that in light of this, that we are to be "ready", always.

It is also written that He will come as a "thief in the night".

Agreed , but there are those that believe that Jesus is not really coming physically to earth , it would seem it be hard for them to truly be ready for something they don't believe will really happen

 

[brinny]

Agreed , but there are those that believe that Jesus is not really coming physically to earth , it would seem it be hard for them to truly be ready for something they don't believe will really happen

It is written that the earth will fold up like a scroll. And regarding "believing", we either "believe" Him and His Word or we don't.

There will be a new heaven and earth.

Many will say "Lord Lord" and He will tell them to depart from Him for He never knew them.

What is akin to the unforgivable sin is not "believing" God.

Woe to those who do not.

 

[seventysevens]

You have turned the above into an art-form.

Why don't you explain how your doctrine conforms with 2 Timothy 4:1, and Revelation 11:18, instead of finding fault with other members of this forum?

We await your explanation of those texts...

.

You have been shown that and many many other truths that you continue to reject from many many people , even some of the most basic doctrine you refuse to accept in favor of a doctrine that makes no sense

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Agreed , but there are those that believe that Jesus is not really coming physically to earth , it would seem it be hard for them to truly be ready for something they don't believe will really happen

Like on a white horse?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts blameless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him
[Zech 14:5/Revelation 19:11.]

Revelation 19:11
And I saw the heaven having be opened and behold!
A white horse and the One sitting on it being called Faithful and True and in justice He is judging and is battling.
14 And the armies, the in the heaven, followed to Him on white horses, having been inslipped/dressed linen, white, clean,

Do we still battle with horses and chariots today?

Micah 5:10
“And it shall be in that day,” says the LORD,
“That I will cut off your horses from your midst
And destroy your chariots.

Rev 18:13
“and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.