Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Douggg said:

Same warning to flee to the mountains, yes.

Luke 21:20-21 was a warning of what to do when the Romans came, back in the first century, right? That's the essence of what you been saying.

Matthew 24:15-16, on the other hand, is different because it is the warning of what do when after the long period of Luke 21:23 is finished, and Matthew 24:14 is finished. And the world , not just Jerusalem, enters the great tribulation.

Luke 21:24-25 is the same as in Matthew 24:29-30.

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Can you explain why the verse below is in the Bible?

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


Can you explain what Josephus was talking about below?

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


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BABerean2 said:

Can you explain why the verse below is in the Bible?

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

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festival of lights. Hanukah.

BABerean2 said:

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

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But that is not ALL that is in Matthew 24 following the instructions to flee.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then Luke 21:34-36

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Did 70 ad come like a snare? On all them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE earth?

Dave L said:

Have you considered when God broke off the unbelieving Jews from Israel in Romans 11, the only Israel remaining was spiritual Israel who followed Jesus.

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The tree is not Israel, but a tree of life.

Dave L said:

Are you saying there were no converts to Christ in Jerusalem to leave town when they saw what was taking place?

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James makes a good point. In Matthew 24:15 the instructions to flee are when they see the abomination of desolation standing in a holy place. That is different from the instructions to flee when they see armies surrounding Jerusalem.

Dave L said:

It's all the same. Proven by their reactions to Christ's words.

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How so Dave? The armies would have surrounded Jerusalem first. That would have been the signal to flee.

Any desecration of the temple would have come after the Romans had killed the huge number who did not flee. Which would have meant fleeing at that point, after the Romans had slaughtered the Jews, would not make any sense.

Douggg said:

How so Dave? The armies would have surrounded Jerusalem first. That would have been the signal to flee.

Any desecration of the temple would have come after the Romans had killed the huge number who did not flee. Which would have meant fleeing at that point, after the Romans had slaughtered the Jews, would not make any sense.

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The dispensational confusion arises because of its association of the "abomination of desolation" in Matthew with the appearance in the temple of a defiling idol or object.

The "abomination of desolation" is in fact as seen in Luke's parallel clarifying description in Luke 21:20: The occupation of the holy city of Jerusalem by the abomination represented by the invading pagan Roman army.

There is no mention of the temple or any object within the temple.

The parallel accounts in the gospels are fully complementary.

Douggg said:

It may be a topic for discussion on historic commentators. But all that is irrelevant as far as what the bible says. Find one that talks about Daniel 12:4, who can prove his generation fit - many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased, as compared to the internet age.

Anyone who cannot comprehend that the abomination of desolation that Daniel the prophet spoke of in Daniel 12 is end times, has no understanding of Matthew 24.

It is EASY to see that there are two different time periods involved - right from the text.

Luke 21:20-21 is first century history Jerusalem....while, differently, Matthew 24:15-16 is end times the great tribulation involving the entire world, not just Jerusalem.

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The cited brethren all disagree, and they collectively represent the prevailing belief of the historical true Christian Church for over eighteen hundred years.

That can certainly not be described as "irrelevant".

jgr said:

The cited brethren all disagree, and they collectively represent the prevailing belief of the historical true Christian Church for over eighteen hundred years.

That can certainly not be described as "irrelevant".

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They are irrelevant. Understanding of Daniel 12, in the text has been sealed from understanding until the end times.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

I have translated the meaning of that for you.... internet age.

It is EASY to see that there are two different time periods involved - right from the text.

Luke 21:20-21 is first century history Jerusalem....while, differently, Matthew 24:15-16 is end times the great tribulation involving the entire world, not just Jerusalem.

Dave L said:

““But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Those who are inside the city must depart. Those who are out in the country must not enter it,” (Luke 21:20–21)

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Why is the instructions to flee to the mountains in Luke 21:21 before the being lead away
captive to ALL nations.... while differently in Matthew 24:15-16, the instructions to flee is after the gospel has been preached to ALL nations?

Douggg said:

They are irrelevant.

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Spoken like a genuine dispensationalist, even though you don't classify yourself as one.

In Matthew 24, Jesus does answer the disciples' questions regarding the end of the age, and His second coming.

But the answer to the latter does not begin until Matthew 24:30 at the earliest.

Up to that point, Jesus' answer relates to the end of the age in 70 AD.

There is no question, as our cited brethren recognized, that the discourse up to Matthew 24:16 (and Luke 21:21) has been historically fulfilled.

Biblewriter said:

But - but- but- didn't you realize that Esther describes Russia, Western Europe, and all the nations of the middle east uniting to invade Israel? And don't worry yourself about the fact that Israel had not been brought back from the sword and settled peacefully in the mountains of Israel at the time of Esther.

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IMO one that sees Ezekiel 38 and 39 fitting Esther to a tee, it speaks volumes of their reading comprehension involving that.

jgr said:

Spoken like a genuine dispensationalist, even though you don't classify yourself as one.

In Matthew 24, Jesus does answer the disciples' questions regarding the end of the age, and His second coming.

But the answer to the latter does not begin until Matthew 24:30 at the earliest.

Up to that point, Jesus' answer relates to the end of the age in 70 AD.

There is no question, as our cited brethren recognized, that the discourse up to Matthew 24:16 (and Luke 21:21) has been historically fulfilled.

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There was no AOD in the first century involving the temple. The temple wasn't even holy anymore once Christ died and resurrected. The text indicates the AOD involves the holy place. The text indicates---standing where it ought not, and that one should consult the book of Daniel in order to further shed light on Jesus' meaning here.

Dave L said:

I'm not sure I understand your question. Jesus told believers to flee when they saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem. The Jews being led captive is a result of unbelievers remaining in the siege of Jerusalem and surviving it only to suffer from then until now.

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The point being, Dave, is that the instructions to flee in Luke 21:20-21 applied to 70 AD, before the Jews were scattered around the world, which everyone has witnessed.

During that same time, the gospel has been spread to the nations. And afterward, the Jews have returned to land of Israel, and have gained possession of Jerusalem again in the parable of the fig tree.

The instruction to flee in Matthew 24:15-16 apply to the end times generation, as that is when the abomination of desolation is referred to in Daniel 12.

It is EASY to see that Luke 21:20-21, applied to a generation involving Jerusalem only. While, differently, Matthew 24:15-16 involves the whole world not just Jerusalem.