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You are still all hat and no cattle. You can adjust scripture to make it fit your agenda. But direct quotes will not allow for this. Since you have no direct quotes, only dead silence from scripture on your pivotal points, your system is as false as any the JWs or others ever contrived.Answer concerning pre-trib, part 1:
Who said we do not have scripture to support out pre-trib position? No one except those who imagine they have scriptural proof that the rapture will not be pre-trib.
Jesus spoke of the rapture, saying, “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:2-3)
But we also read, “that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:13)
In the first passage above our Lord says “I will come again and receive you to Myself.” The second one speaks of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” It is obvious that His coming to receive us to Himself has to take place before His coming “with all His saints.” The words used by the Holy Spirit do not allow any other conclusion. But how long before “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” will He “come again and receive” us to Himself?
The answer to this question begins with the promise, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10) The Greek word translated from in this verse is ek, (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) which indeed means from, but in the sense of away from or out of.
Some imagine that this only means out of after being in the “hour of trial.” But Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines ek, as it is used in Revelation 3:10, to mean “to keep one at a distance from.” Indeed, this becomes obvious when we consider the word “keep” in this phrase. This word is translated from the Greek word tereo. (word number 5083 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) It literally means to guard, but in the scriptures was usually used in the sense of our English word keep, and is so translated more than two-thirds of the times tero occurs in the Greek text of the New Testament. So it is clear that the real meaning of this promise is to be kept out of “the hour of trial.” { To really understand this, we need to consider another promise made concerning a part of the same time period. The Lord said to Israel, “Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of ·Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.” (Jeremiah 30:6-7) In this case, the Hebrew word translated saved is yasha’. (word number 3467 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This Hebrew word means saved in the sense of succor. In the KJV, this Hebrew word is rendered save 149 times, deliver 13 times, help 12 times, and once as rescue. We notice this to clearly understand that this Hebrew word carries an entirely different sense from the Greek word tereo used in Revelation 3:10. In one case, the Lord promised to help some of His own get through a time of trouble designed for themselves. In the other, He promised to keep others of His own out of a time of testing designed for others.}
But what is this “the hour of trial” that they will be kept out of? The Greek word translated hour in this passage is hora. (word number 5610 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means hour, but is often used figuratively for a period of time. But what hour are they promised to be kept out of? It is not just some general period of time. It is a specific one. It is “the hour of trial.” It is specifically called “the hour,” for the word “the” is in the Greek text, as the word ho. (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary)
{Unlike English, in both Biblical Greek and Hebrew, definite articles are normally used only for stress. If the word “the” is in the original text, it means the thing being referred to is a particular thing, not just something in general.}
But what “hour of trial” is this specific time that they a (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) re they promised to be kept out of? It is “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”
There is a specific “hour of trial” coming “to test those who dwell on the earth.” When we see the reason this hour is coming we understand the term “hour of trial.” For the Greek word here translated to test is peirasmon. (a singular infinitive of peirasmos, word number 3985 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This literally means exactly as it is translated, to test. So we see that this scripture explicitly tells us that there is a particular time of testing coming, and that the purpose of that time is “to test those who dwell on the earth.” Its purpose is not to test the saints of God, but “those who dwell on the earth.” This is a moral class, those whose hearts are on the earth, rather than in heaven. This moral class is named in these words eight times in the Revelation, and always in a negative light.{See Revelation 3:10, 11:10, 13:8, 13:12, 13:14 (twice) 14:6 and 17:8 See them also as “inhabitants of the earth” in Revelation 12:12.}
But we are also told where this time of testing will come. It “shall come upon the whole world.” The Greek word translated whole in this clause is holos. (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means whole, or all, that is, complete. That is, there is no part of the world that will be exempted from this time of testing. So there is coming a specific time of testing, and it is coming upon the whole world. But the Lord’s own are promised that they will be kept out of that time of testing. Now if this time is coming upon the whole world, but the Lord’s own will be kept out of it, they cannot be in the world during that time of testing. So we see that Revelation 3:10 says the Lord’s own will be removed from the earth before this time of testing begins.
We see this again in a passage about Noah and Lot. “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:4-9)
Here the Holy Spirit gives us two specific examples, Noah and Lot, both of whom were physically removed from the scene of judgment before it took place. Then, in the context of these two examples, the Holy Spirit said, “then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:9)
Thus the Holy Spirit showed His intention to “deliver the godly out of temptations” by physically removing them from the scene “of temptations” before they take place, just as He did for Noah and Lot. The Greek word here translated from is the same ek used in Revelation 3:10, which normally means from in the sense of away from or out of. And the Greek word translated temptations is peirasmon, the same word that was used in Revelation 3:10. There are no accidents in the precise wording of scripture. The fact that the Holy Spirit used these same two words in these two parallel passages is highly significant.
Again, we read of the coming of “the man of sin.” The Holy Spirit said “And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) In this scripture the Holy Spirit first clearly identified the restrainer as a personality by calling him He. Then He said “you know what is restraining.” He did not say “you should know,” or “you ought to know.” He said “you know.” This makes it plain that he was speaking of Himself. No other possible individual could be so obvious he did not need to be named.
We are told that “He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.” How can this be, when Jesus said, “I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17) One scripture tells us “the Spirit of truth”is given “that He may abide with you forever.” The other says that He will be “taken out of the way.” How can one who will “abide with you forever” be “taken out of the way?”
We read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 that “the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” The Holy Spirit, “the Spirit of truth,”is truly given “that He may abide with you forever.” But Jesus, “the Lord Himself,” will also “descend from heaven” and catch us up “to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
This event has to be the time when the Holy Spirit is “taken out of the way.” This is because the Holy Spirit will be with the saints of God forever, so He cannot be “taken out of the way” either before or after the saints of God are removed from this earth.
It is therefore plain that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” at the same time the Saints of God will be “caught up... in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But it is only after that happens that “the lawless one will be revealed.” For we remember that “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) So this scripture, which shows that the Holy Spirit will be “taken out of the way” before the Antichrist, “the lawless one,” will be revealed thereby shows that the rapture has to take place before that time.
We see this again in the parable of the ten virgins, where we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see “those who were ready” taken into the wedding while “the other virgins” are held outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. The fact that the door remains closed for those that were not “ready” is highlighted in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, where we are told that “they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” But we need to remember that this is after “those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” That is, at the time of the rapture.
Finally, in Revelation 4:4 we read, “Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.” As there were twelve tribes in Israel and twelve apostles, this appears to indicate the presence of all the Old Testament and New Testament saints of God already in heaven before the beginning of the seal and trumpet visions of Revelation six through nine. While this is only interpretation, it is yet another reason for concluding that the rapture comes before the tribulation period.
Dave, I don't think anyone is claiming the words pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath are in the bible. Muslims use the same sort of argument in saying nowhere in the bible did Jesus say "I am God".You are still all hat and no cattle. You can adjust scripture to make it fit your agenda. But direct quotes will not allow for this. Since you have no direct quotes, only dead silence from scripture on your pivotal points, your system is as false as any the JWs or others ever contrived.
Answer, part 3:If you had scripture to support a gap in the 70 weeks, and scripture to support a pre-trib rapture, it would make sense to consider your position. But you have no scriptural basis for it.
The peoples of Meshech, Tubal, and Ammon still exist. There is no possible escape from this fact.So that would make Russia a nation, not Meschech and tubal
That would make Jordan a nation. The amorite nation no longer exists.
Modern Identities are not the same as 2500 year old ancient tribal nations.
Is America the same nation as those that immigrated to it?
You are still all hat and no cattle. You can adjust scripture to make it fit your agenda. But direct quotes will not allow for this. Since you have no direct quotes, only dead silence from scripture on your pivotal points, your system is as false as any the JWs or others ever contrived.
The peoples of Meshech, Tubal, and Ammon still exist. There is no possible escape from this fact.
JWs do a fine job of making scripture fit their agenda. And this is the key to understanding your position. The idea is however dropping all of your theories and conjectures and let scripture interpret scripture. But you have two big holes with nothing in them. And you build your case around them.I have provided scriptures which clearly show these two details, even though they do not directly state either of them. But, rather than pivotal points, as you imagine, they are both only details. The great bulk of my eschatological scheme is directly and explicitly stated in scripture. There is so much explicitly stated in scripture that even a short review takes many posts. I have already posted much of this in the following threads:
Who will be in the land during Daniel’s seventieth week? http://www.christianforums.com/t6429517-19/
The neglected character in end time prophecy
http://www.christianforums.com/t6571768-4/
The End Time King of Judah
http://www.christianforums.com/t7585242-5/
What Happens When Messiah Comes
http://www.christianforums.com/t7324109-5/
The Restoration of Israel, as Described in the Holy Scriptures http://www.christianforums.com/t7737854-38/
Scripture prophesies a future temporary earthly kingdom. http://www.christianforums.com/t7548942-6/
The physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel. http://www.christianforums.com/t7715745-10/
New Testament Promises of Israel’s Restoration
http://www.christianforums.com/t7711183-24/
The unfulfilled promise of Israel’s repentance
http://www.christianforums.com/t5835530/
The unfulfilled promise to David http://www.christianforums.com/t5844429-7/
The unfulfilled promise to Abraham
http://www.christianforums.com/t5766758-5/
The True Meaning of Romans 9-11
http://www.christianforums.com/t7716736/#post62199250
On the other hand, you have no direct quotes from scripture to support any portion of your imagined end time scenario, but the threads listed above contain a great many direct quotes from scripture that clearly and explicitly contradict your scenario.
Until you provide direct support from scripture for a gap in the 70 weeks and a pre-trib rapture people are wasting their time with you.Answer concerning pre-trib, part 2:
Answer, part 3:
Actually, my entire eschatology comes from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, the twelve minor prophets, as well as from Genesis, Deuteronomy, and Psalms from the Old Testament, as well from Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, Hebrews, I Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, James, and the Revelation from the New Testament.
In actuality, when I made the index to my 300 page book, "Keys to Bible Prophecy," I found that there were only about ten or twelve books of the Bible that I had not quoted.
The delayed fulfillment of the seventieth week and the pre-trib rapture are both only details in the great overarching scenario presented in these many books of the Bible. This great overarching theme is that eventually Judah (who in the mean time would have come back to the land) will be brought to repentance through an unparalleled time of trouble, and then will be delivered by the coming of Messiah, who will then deliver Judah, defeat the surrounding nations, bring back all the rest of Israel, and purge the rebels from among their midst as they return. Then all the rest will repent and turn back to the Lord with their whole hearts, and will be settled in their land and there blessed by God. Then the blessing will flow out from them to the entire world.
None of this is interpretation, for all of it is explicitly stated in various prophecies, spread out throughout the Holy Scriptures.
The words are not in the bible. That's not the problem. The problem is that those three concepts are not in the bible.Dave, I don't think anyone is claiming the words pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath are in the bible. Muslims use the same sort of argument in saying nowhere in the bible did Jesus say "I am God".
Still you have no evidences and no understanding and nothing but denialJWs do a fine job of making scripture fit their agenda. And this is the key to understanding your position. The idea is however dropping all of your theories and conjectures and let scripture interpret scripture. But you have two big holes with nothing in them. And you build your case around them.
Still you have no evidences and no understanding and nothing but denialThe words are not in the bible. That's not the problem. The problem is that those three concepts are not in the bible.
Still you have no evidences and no understanding and nothing but denialUntil you provide direct support from scripture for a gap in the 70 weeks and a pre-trib rapture people are wasting their time with you.
We remember your ridiculous claims about this passage. But "Messiah the prince" and "the prince that shall come" are two different designations, regardless of what you say.
"As "the people of" "the prince that shall come" were going to "destroy the city and the sanctuary" we know, of a certainty that "the prince that shall come will be a Roman. For it was the Romans that destroyed the city and the sanctuary.
You are the one in search of justification for your theories. And no justification from scripture exists. Only silence. Where's the gap proof? Where's the pre-trib rapture proof?Still you have no evidences and no understanding and nothing but denial
Put up direct quotes from scripture backing your claims and the discussions will be over.Still you have no evidences and no understanding and nothing but denial
Jesus's people were not the Romans, so the prince was not him. Jesus was born a Jew.
We don't know who, by name yet, the prince who shall come is. But he will be associated with Romans in some way.
But the Romans were not Jesus's people.The prince is Messiah throughout, Daniel 9:25-27. The people of the prince refers to the Roman armies which were Christ's agents and instruments to accomplish the judgment and destruction which He had prophesied.
Revelation 20 places the resurrection of the wicked after the millennium.
What Jesus said here places the resurrection of damnation on the day of His coming, which is at the start... of His future Millennium reign:
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV
One of the requirements of proper Bible study is to make sure that all relevant Scripture is included before trying to establish a doctrine from God's Word. Because Jesus said that, it means the idea of the 'dead' in Revelation 20 doesn't mean still being literally in the grave in that future time, as I explained already from Scripture.
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