Ernie Knoll not a prophet?

Xenon · Jul 24, 2009

BobRyan said:
For what it is worth - I took a long and detailed look at Eugene Prewitt's material a number of times since last November. I found his writeup to be the best and most Biblically based of all the popular ones out there. I have seen a number of false prophets come into the SDA church from the Pentecostal movement over the years and they were easy to spot.

And today I am completely on the side of those who say that Ernie is a false prophet.

And I still can't find a single argument in Prewitt's writeup that holds water when you stop and take a close look at it.

Hence the truck-size whole that those who were opposed to 4HisPeople - left unnattended while creating more problems of their own.

in Christ,

Bob

Personally, I found his argument about being led by the spirit instead of studying what God has already told us to be the nail in the coffin. But I see what you mean. Even then, it wasn't anything that screamed out "False!", but more of a quiet whisper. Maybe that's the whole point. We have to be so in tune with what God has given us that even slight error sets off warning sirens. This whole thing is definitely good reason for me to study my Bible and EGW's writings more.

BobRyan · Jul 24, 2009

Xenon said:
Personally, I found his argument about being led by the spirit instead of studying what God has already told us to be the nail in the coffin. But I see what you mean. Even then, it wasn't anything that screamed out "False!", but more of a quiet whisper. Maybe that's the whole point. We have to be so in tune with what God has given us that even slight error sets off warning sirens. This whole thing is definitely good reason for me to study my Bible and EGW's writings more.

Many people in Ellen White's day claimed they were led by the Spirit to reject her. Many people who agreed with Ernie's ministry claimed that they were led by the Spirit to agree with Ernie. And in the case of Ernie's ministry - those same people enthusiastically read both Ellen White and the Bible claiming that one of the key objectives of 4HisPeople was to get people to return to studying Ellen White's messages and also the Bible when it comes to the saints at the end of times.

Certainly we can all agree with that part of the mission and we can all agree that we want to follow where the Holy Spirit leads us. And we all like to claim that the Holy Spirit IS leading us as a result of our prayerful bible study on a given topic.

That is the part that hopefully all agree with.

in Christ,

Bob

reddogs · Jul 25, 2009

Man-ofGod said:
It seems it gets worse based on announcement today at 4hispeople.com.

So Ernie Knoll set out to deliberately deceive, and then compounded the issue by trying to say he uncovered the deception Satan placed on him by himself. Definitely pray for this man.

With that said, this whole event is a blessing in many ways. For one, it tells us that the end is soon.

This also shows us that we may not know the test of a prophet like we thought we did or at the very least, we do not know how to apply it properly. But out of this unfortunate event, arises an opportunity to apply the test of a prophet to Ernie Knoll knowing what the outcome of the test should be. Therefore, I would like to suggest brothers and sisters, that we learn how to apply the test of a prophet effectively, so that we are not deceived. Amen? I propose we open a thread for Adventist, for this purpose only, maybe in the study section? For a lot of us, this is the first time we witnessed something like this, but it certainly will not be the last. Especially knowing that God will be sending real prophets eventually. What is everyones thought on this?

Wow, I knew it would come out but its still a shock..:o

DarylFawcett · Jul 27, 2009

I don't know about here in this thread, but it seems to me that there was at least two Biblically solid arguments brought forth in another thread in another non-CF SDA forum.

BobRyan said:
It is sad that no one was able to master a Biblically solid argument against Ernie's dreams - and in fact still today we don't have one from the dreams themselves.

What we have is Ernie's own statement that he made up Candace and of course "now" we have a bible case against the dreams. But I would hate to say that the test of THIS kind of prophet is "wait 4 years until they admit that they started lying to you about 18 months ago".

We need to have a better model than that! And we need to have something better than the "I don't FEEL GOOD about this" model of the naysayers against Ernie that also "just so happened" to undercut both Ellen White and the bible.

When I was first pointed to 4HisPeople by a David Gates sermon I found on the web last October - one of the first things I did after reading all the dreams (and by all - I mean all) - was to go to the best detractor sites to see if any analysis had been done that would hold up to the Bible and Ellen White -- stating that Ernie's dreams were not true. There was nadda - zippo, zilch -- the big ZERO. (Kind of like the early Millerites wanting to find out if there was any flaw at all with the 2300 day timeline and getting nothing of substance from the Millerite detractors). Having to wait until AFTER the 2300 year timeline ended with "no second coming" was a horrible way to "detect" the flaw!!

So it seems we have a similar failure with this specific form of prophecy, only we have no hind-sight postmortem today showing us what we could have known before that would have helped.

What a mess!

in Christ,

Bob

Pythons · Jul 27, 2009

Mr. Fawcett,

Does this type of things happen very often within the denomination? Is it a regular occurrance where someone says they are a prophet?

DarylFawcett · Jul 28, 2009

I would say that it is a very rare occurrence, however, any such claim is carefully scrutinized to the biblical tests of a prophet.

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2009

Pythons said:
Mr. Fawcett,

Does this type of things happen very often within the denomination? Is it a regular occurrance where someone says they are a prophet?

Actually it is very common to have people come in to the SDA church from some of the Charismatic or Pentecostal churches and claim to continue to have "the gift of prophecy". Sometimes it takes a while for them to realize that what they called the gift of prophecy in their former churches was nothing more than the the gift of "feeling a certain way strongly".

That kind of claim is not rare at all. I have seen it half a dozen times.

The rare event is to have someone like Ernie claim to have inspired dreams that read like Ellen White's first two inspired dreams recorded in Early Writings.

We have not had something like that -- of the calibre of Ernie's dreams ever turnn out to be false until now. In volume 1 of the Testimonies pages 598-604 Ellen White records three inspired dreams of two men -- Loughborough and Matteson saying "let the prophet who has a dream tell a dream". However those dreams fall far short of the complex arrangement in Ernie's dreams.

But she also dealt with numerous cases of false claims to prophecy that came up in her day. Anna Phillips Rice is a good example and so also Anna Garmire.

Then there were those she said she could not figure out up or down - like the Mackin couple until Ellen White received a divine directive indicating whether their gift was valid or not.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 29, 2009

DarylFawcett said:
I don't know about here in this thread, but it seems to me that there was at least two Biblically solid arguments brought forth in another thread in another non-CF SDA forum.

My goal has always been to find arguments that do not undercut either the Bible or Ellen White - and that are not simply "feelings based".

So far the best we have to date is that "Ernie said he lied about Candace" which we all agree is a rock solid argument against the dreams.

My interest however is to "also find" a really good Bible argument against the dreams that would not need a glaring "I was lying" statement from Ernie to be compelling.

That project remains.

in Christ,

Bob

Man-ofGod · Jul 30, 2009

BobRyan said:
My goal has always been to find arguments that do not undercut either the Bible or Ellen White - and that are not simply "feelings based".

So far the best we have to date is that "Ernie said he lied about Candace" which we all agree is a rock solid argument against the dreams.

My interest however is to "also find" a really good Bible argument against the dreams that would not need a glaring "I was lying" statement from Ernie to be compelling.

That project remains.

in Christ,

Bob

As you noted, in two cases, Ellen Whites testifies to not being able to discern a false prophet from a true one until divine intervention. But what does this mean? One of criteria for a false prophet is if they speak not according to the word. We can put this into practice by listening on a case-by-case basis, and accepting what he/she says as long as it continues to be truth. The moment it becomes error, then we know to disregard.

However, this is not a one fix all solution. The question becomes what if the so called prophet makes a life changing suggestion. A life changing suggestion in this example could be anything from packing your bags to leave your home to a request to drop your career to work on his/her ministry. Very scary suggestions especially if the person is not from God.

In the case of Ernie, he did not go this far as far as I know, but if he did, how many would have heeded his words? Satan will definitely learn off this experience, so we had better learn too, quickly.

Another argument from some Adventist is that Ellen is the last prophet, making Ellen the antitype to Moses. However, the obvious con of categorically calling her the last prophet is rejecting true prophecy when it shows up. So therefore, is there a surer way to resolve this?

We know that scripture is plain. With Ellen White, everything was document and verified by many witnesses. We know how she spoke. We know of her fruits. With that said, lets break down Ernie Knolls claims.

circumstances under which they are given -- What makes these different from other dreams is three things. 1. Each dream was as clear as if my eyes were wide open on a bright sunny day. 2. In each dream I could hear distinct things. 3. I had the acute sense of smell. -- After the second dream of heaven I was healed by God of acute ulcerative colitis. Without the healing I would not be able to share these dreams as I have been. I praise God for His incredible mercy and love.

On his third point, we read that he was healed "by God of acute ulcerative colitis." Was there medical evidence of this? Was any medical documentation provided to the public to support this claim? Is it reasonable to request such evidence? If he could not provide the evidence, would this have stopped him in his tracks? Lets just focus on these thoughts and then we can continue.

Discuss..

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2009

A couple of points.

Everyone who knew Ernie from that time - including those who opposed him, agreed that he had been healed as he claimed. His own board now rejects him and claims he is a false prophet but they still affirm that the healing event he described was valid.

Ellen White claimed on several occassions that more prophets were coming and even commented that the primary reaction to them from SDA leadership was predicted to be a dissmissive "fanatacism" or "excitement" denouncement.

I don't know of any case where the content of Ernie's dreams has been found to be in doctrinal error. However the "false prophet" nature of his ministry was not in the area of false doctrine - but rather in the area of deceptive claims designed to get people to accept the ministry and published dreams.

Which leads to the conclusion that the dreams themselves had to have been invented by someone.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2009

DarylFawcett said:
I don't know about here in this thread, but it seems to me that there was at least two Biblically solid arguments brought forth in another thread in another non-CF SDA forum.

It would help this forum if you could find those two points and distill each of them to something like a paragraph for all to read.

in Christ,

Bob

Man-ofGod · Jul 31, 2009

BobRyan said:
A couple of points.

Everyone who knew Ernie from that time - including those who opposed him, agreed that he had been healed as he claimed. His own board now rejects him and claims he is a false prophet but they still affirm that the healing event he described was valid.

Ellen White claimed on several occassions that more prophets were coming and even commented that the primary reaction to them from SDA leadership was predicted to be a dissmissive "fanatacism" or "excitement" denouncement.

I don't know of any case where the content of Ernie's dreams has been found to be in doctrinal error. However the "false prophet" nature of his ministry was not in the area of false doctrine - but rather in the area of deceptive claims designed to get people to accept the ministry and published dreams.

Which leads to the conclusion that the dreams themselves had to have been invented by someone.

in Christ,

Bob

Even still, if he was diagnosed, there should be medical documents to back up the claim I would think. I mean, it is possible that he could of been acting like he was sick in preparation for this event or it could of been phsychological. So medical examinations would help in verifying such an illness in my opinion. I mean if hes going to be doing Gods work, then I do not see why any professed prophet would want to hide such information. Especially when it brings glory to God. Even a stronger testimony would be before and after test results. Thoughts?

AzA · Jul 31, 2009

Man-ofGod said:
...Let us break down Ernie Knolls claims.

"What makes these different from other dreams is three things. 1. Each dream was as clear as if my eyes were wide open on a bright sunny day. 2. In each dream I could hear distinct things. 3. I had the acute sense of smell."
...
Discuss...

None of these things are uncommon. How vivid and sense-laden dreams are varies from person to person. The comment tells outsiders what Ernie's former dream life was like (dark, undistinct, without smell -- the poor thing) but is no evidence of anything in itself except that he formerly had a dark, undistinct, smell-less dream life and then experienced something different. That's it.

DarylFawcett · Jul 31, 2009

RL at Campmeeting is taking up most of my time right now, however, I will see what I can do sometime next week.

BobRyan said:
It would help this forum if you could find those two points and distill each of them to something like a paragraph for all to read.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 31, 2009

Man-ofGod said:
So medical examinations would help in verifying such an illness in my opinion. I mean if hes going to be doing Gods work, then I do not see why any professed prophet would want to hide such information. Especially when it brings glory to God. Even a stronger testimony would be before and after test results. Thoughts?

Making private medical exams public is not something people would normally do these days. Prophet or not. However when you talk to friends that knew him well - and are not in favor of his ministry - and even they agree with the healing event - it does help.

in Christ,

Bob

Man-ofGod · Jul 31, 2009

BobRyan said:
Making private medical exams public is not something people would normally do these days. Prophet or not. However when you talk to friends that knew him well - and are not in favor of his ministry - and even they agree with the healing event - it does help.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, but if you going to use your medical condition as evidence, then I think the circumstances change.

In Ernies case, witnesses just looked at the before and after effects of his condition. In hind site, one can speculate on how Ernie might have plotted this whole situation out. When he was ill, no one had any reason to observe him to see if he had a legitimate illness. Moreover, why would anyone? They would just assume as any of us would that he is really truly sick. So when he claims a miraculous healing, they were already convinced that he was sick from the get go because its observance was never looked at objectively till after the fact (which is too late).

But a medical record solves almost everything. When we say "medical record", we assume all his medical history. But all he has to do is provide one lab out of the thick medical folder for the one condition that was already made public. It does not have to be all, maybe just one lab test validating the condition. It is a small thing to ask when claiming so much. I mean if you are willing to die for Gods cause, then how little a thing is it to submit evidence into the arena for Gods cause.

BobRyan · Aug 3, 2009

I spoke to someone that knew him well back then and who does not accept him as a true prophet now. They stated empatically that the blood loss he experience was so significant that Becky observed it in the bed sheets and that this person observed it on the car seats and the fact that Ernie had to have them replaced once that blood loss ceased.

I suppose there are many ways to imaginie fraud at every turn - but short of a video camera and then a special effects studio telling you that the video was not tampered with ... I just don't see the point.

in Christ,

Bob

DarylFawcett · Aug 5, 2009

IMO, the fact that he confessed after being caught in the act of deception makes the medical part unnecessary.

BobRyan · Aug 5, 2009

My point is not that he is a prophet - my point is the fact of the healing and who affirms it.

OntheDL · Aug 7, 2009

There is a latest blanket email by Ernie Knoll, in it included two new dreams.

Ernie Knoll not a prophet?

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