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2 Peter 2 said:But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
G-139 said:hairesis hah'-ee-res-is from 138; properly, a choice, i.e. (specially) a party or (abstractly) disunion:--heresy (which is the Greek word itself), sect.
Acts 15 said:And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying,
That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Deut 5 said:And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
(I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mountsaying,
I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Thou shalt not kill. Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
Neither shalt thou steal. Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.
Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
What verses in the Bible makes you think prophets will rise up in the last days before Jesus's second coming and try to make major corrections in the Christian churches practices and beliefs as Mrs. White did?
Thanks, Ricker
[BobRyan;50708435]Eph 4:11-15 talks about the fact that spiritual gifts including prophets remain in the church until the time of the 2nd coming.
This is all in conjunction with speaking in tounges in the new Christian church. See above.1Cor 14:1 argues that we should continue to desire spiritual gifts especially that we may prophesy.
Joel 2 says that in the last day people will dream dreams and see visions.
In all ages the prophets of God have corrected the leaders of God's people.
In Amos 3:7 in every Age as Godis about to act - he brings about a prophet. True at the flood, true at the freedom of Israel from Egypt, true as Israel went into Babylonian captivity, true in the days of Christ, true at the rise of the Seventh-day Adventist church -- and now... true today.
The religious popular group of the first century accused Christ of being a false prophet and using the power of a demon. Christ said that they would do to his followers as they did to Him - in Matt 10. In all cases the ones that are advancing in the truth of Bible knowledge were denounced by those who wanted to stand still and reject the continuing work of the Holy Spirit.
Eph 4
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Joel 2
28
"It will come about after this
That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
29
"Even on the male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
Amos 3
7Surely the Lord GOD does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.
8A lion has roared! Who will not fear?
The Lord GOD has spoken! Who can but prophesy?
Ok so maybe an enumerated list will be of help
1. 1 Cor 12 states that ALL are not givne the gifts of prophecy - but rather that each person is given a specific spiritual gift determined by the Holy Spirit alone.
2. 1Co 14:1 says to desire earnestly spiritual gifts - especially that we may prophesy -- it never argues "if you have a spiritual gift of anykind - then you also prophesy" as I am sure we all agree. Nothing in that text argues that "if you do not speak in tongues than you can not be a prophet".
3. Eph 4:11-15 points to the continuation of Spiritual gifts until the 2nd coming.
We do not reach to what Paul calls the "fullness of Christ" in tearms of the "measure of the stature of Christ" until glorification.
4. Joel 2 points to the fact that in the last days - the gift of prophecy will remain -
The claim is not that one prophet is fulfills all of what is promised - the claim is that the gift of prophecy is not only promised but predicted and there will likely be even more.
5. the point of Amos 3:7 is that it is God's plan and established pattern to bring about a prophet in each critical stage of salvation history. True in Moses' day, in the day of the 12 tribes of Israel being started, in the day of the launch of the nation of Israel as a nation-church state, in the day of the captivity of Israel by Babylon AND in the day of their release, in the day of the launch of the Christian church, and in the day of the start of the Adventist church -- and then today at the end of all things.
6. "Changing someone's mind" is not the point -- the point is to make a clear Bible point if one is going to oppose a prophet sent by God.
7. In John 16:1-2 Christ predicted that those who persecuted Christians will "think that they are doing God a service". Christ argues that if they condemned Him - then they would condemn those who followed Him.
the mere fact that you reject the prophets listed here and the Seventh-day Adventist church is not "proof" that they are wrong.
I also do not claim that simply being "opposed" is proof that they are right -- though I have to think that there are those who would love to imagine that this my argument -- certainly none of us here though.
The idea that "the Bible only allows for one prophet in the last days" has never been a doctrine of the Adventist church -- though I am sure that too would be fun to imagine.
in Christ,
Bob
Thanks Bob. It seems in the early Chrisitain church there were plenty of people prophesizing and plenty speaking in tounges. It is true we are not all given the same gifts. The ministry of Ellen White does not seem to me like it fits the model given by the early church, and I don't see any forcast in the Bible of a remnant raised up by a prophet in the last days.
Not to get too off course, but don't you think if Sabbath observance was to be the end time test of loyalty to divide the saved and unsaved, it would have been emphasized, or even mentioned, in the epistles to the Gentiles?
Don't you find it curious that God would let Christians worship on the "wrong" day for many, many hundreds of years before raising up a denomination by a prophet to spread the light of the Sabbath?
Ricker,
Who are you to speak for God?
If God wants to raise up a prophet or prophets in the last days He will do so without our permission.
I think you are stepping over some boundaries here by trying to place limitations on God's work. It isn't for you to decide how God is or isn't going to do things. It is for you to test what is happening and accept it if it is of God and to reject it if it isn't, and to be honest so that you will know the difference!
Just because something doesn't make sense to you that doesn't mean it is false.
And frankly, I would like to know what your intentions are for being here. It appears that your purpose for being here is to create conflict and division. If you were truly interested in finding answers you would be less contentious towards what we believe. It's not like you have been doing this for a few months. You have been doing this for a long time.
Haven't you figured out by now that you won't persuade us to reject the 4th commandment? Why do you continue to push the issue?
Thanks for your answers. You have a good point about some unbiblical things being practiced for a long time.1. "remnant raised up by a prophet" is not a teaching in the Adventist church. Not sure where you got that from.
2. Rev 12 and 19 speak to the issue of the spirit of prophecy being the "Testimony of Jesus" and being a characteristic of the "Remnant" group that comes out of the dark ages in the early 1800's.
3. Ellen White's prophetic work is very much what we see in Numbers 12:6 "IF There is a prophet among you I WILL make myself known to them in a vision I WILL speak to them in a dream".
In Acts 13 we see gentiles in the synagogues "Sabbath after Sabbath".
In Acts 15 when the dispute arises over circumcision the argument is made that the Gentiles are already being exposed to solid Bible teaching every Sabbath.
In Is 66 we are told that even in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath - shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".
In Mark 2:27 the NT saints were being told that at creation week the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind - and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath".
In Ex 20 we see that the Sabbath commandment is included In the UNIT of TEN commandment James calls the "Law of Liberty" saying that if you break one you break them all.
In Rev 14:7 the Sabbath commandment is quoted unlike the third commandment which is never quoted in the NT.
In Heb 4 we are told explicitly "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the PEOPLE of God".
It is hard to argue that these texts do not exist.
That God would let Chrisitians pray to the dead for many hundreds of years?
That God would let Christians worship using idols in the churches for hundreds of years?
That God would let Christians in the council of Lateran IV pass Canon Law insisting on the "Extermination of heretics and Jews"?
That God would "let Christians" invent the doctrines of infant baptism?
That God would "let Christians" claim that they can turn bread into God - - then adore-worship that bread AS THOUGH it WERE God -- who themselves then admit that IF it is not in fact God then they are engaged in idolatry.
I find it more intersting that in Acts 20 Paul says "AFTER MY departure grevious wolves will come in from anong your own selves not sparing the flock" teaching bad doctrine and drawing away disciples.
I find it interesting that in 2Thess 2 Paul predicts that prior to the 2nd coming there would be a great event - whereby the church would go into apostacy.
I find it interesting that dark ages persecution of saints by the Catholic church for 1260 years is predicted in Dan 7 where we are told that the Catholic Church would seek to "change times and laws".
And I find it instructive that do that the Catholic church has so succesfully argued this point that it is HER authority in direct opposition to the Bible that establishes Sunday INSTEAD of the Bible Sabbath.
It seems like a point that would normally be hard to miss.
in Christ,
Bob
I will give you the possibility of a prophet raised by God in the last days.
Not a clear, cut and dried subject.
:[=RND;50737453]Possibility?
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams
[/quote]The sabbath? Ricker, it's as clear as crystal!
: As fulfilled by the ministry of Mrs. White, or was she just the beginning?
No doubt. Of course, by the word of God they are simply mistaken.To many others the opposite of what you believe is just as clear.
Of course I do! That's why I think all this sabbath talk is so vital and important and why we are seeing much, much, much more of it as the last days draw nearer and nearer. It's only obvious that this discussion (sabbath vs. Sunday) would have only taken place by the work of the Holy Spirit through His prophets.You must realize that, don't you? (I'm not saying you're wrong.)
Lots of people have prophesied, not just Mrs. White.
No doubt. Of course, by the word of God they are simply mistaken.
Of course I do! That's why I think all this sabbath talk is so vital and important and why we are seeing much, much, much more of it as the last days draw nearer and nearer. It's only obvious that this discussion (sabbath vs. Sunday) would have only taken place by the work of the Holy Spirit through His prophets.
This never would have been possible in the 1600's, 1700's, 1800's and in the 1900's, the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's and such but as the days draw nearer to an end it is absolutely fascinating just exactly how much the sabbath and the law of God are becoming such a fixture in the minds of men! Through radio, TV, print, video's & DVD's and now the Internet (thanks Al Gore!) this topic is virtually exploding! That's Holy Spirit work! More and more people are becoming "sabbath aware" even if they are not sabbath keepers.
There will come a day, I am more than quite certain, when the sabbath becomes as huge a topic as A-Rod's steroid use and who wore what at the Oscar's! When this happens all this sabbath talk will begin to come into people's hearts and minds. It's inevitable!
Holy Spirit baby! Never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit!
:
As fulfilled by the ministry of Mrs. White, or was she just the beginning?
Thank you. I just have one more question.
18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)
Why isn't anyone else listed here?
Thank you. I just have one more question.
18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)
Why isn't anyone else listed here?
In Vol 1 of Testimonies is "included" the inspired dreams of Matteson and Loughborough with the comment by Ellen White quoting Jeremiah 23:28 "Let the prophet who has a dream tell a dream".
The issue is not that we are claiming no one else existed - but that her ministry was by far more extensive and Church-wide within the Adventist denomination. It is more a case of historic fact that a doctrinal arguement that only Ellen White can be given the gift of prophecy.
And she predicted that this gift would continue to manifest itself especially as we near the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
speaking of which --
she also predicted that there would be christian leaders -- even among Adventist that would reject those prophets if they were not themselves being lead by the Spirit in their daily walk.
in Christ,
Bob
In the day of Christ the "test of a prophet" was "to the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this word - there is no truth in them " Is 8:20.
But the lazy way to "test a prophet" was to simply ask John the baptizer and Jesus "so --- is your name Moses? is it Elijah? Because if not we will be making up a few on-the-spot new rules to show that you are not a true prophet".
then when Ellen White came along -- the same sola-scriptura test "should have been applied" but usually christians preferred the lazy option asking -- "so, is your name The Apostle Paul?? Is your name Apostle James? If not then we will be making up a few new on-the-spot rules to show that you are not a true prophet".
Well guess what -- today is not much different. You can actually find a few SDAs who are in essence applying the "Bible test" of "so -- is your name Ellen White? If not then we will be making up a few new on-the-spot rules to show that you can not be a true prophet".
But praise God I am very happy to report that this is not the model that ALL SDAs follow on this topic.
in Christ,
Bob
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