Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[ETide]

No basis .

You Trust in yourself because you know that the incarnation you and others claim is bogus. The theology is nice but it fails to manifest itself in most. So then you are satisified to seperate salvation from virtue, even though the bible does not. How convenient.

And by so doing you, by implication, deny the incarnation of the Holy Ghost within us and reduce it to a concept or a notion, just as every other religion does.

Thanks for your opinion Theo.. although I trust in my Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins through His precious shed blood. I am saved by the power of God through the Gospel of God concerning His Son, as it alone is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.

If that is trusting in myself in your opinion, then so be it.

 

[S Walch]

Thanks for your 'flaming' opinion Theo.. although I trust in my Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins through His precious shed blood. I am saved by the power of God through the Gospel of God concerning His Son, as it alone is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.

If that is trusting in myself in your opinion, then so be it.

Well, it could be taken that Theo is saying you're God...

Or He's saying that you think you're God.

Either one.

 

[ETide]

I have seen many examples of "interpretations" of Scripture being coloured by predetermined concepts. Let me give an example.

Scripture says we must believe and be Baptised to be saved (Mk16:16)

This is one verse of scripture, it's not scripture. The whole counsel of scripture teaches us that we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The next verse speaks of those who do not believe (but there's no mention of baptism, because baptism is for believers, not unbelievers), they will be damned.

Our Lord says that if you believe NOT that I am He (the Messiah), then you will die in your sins.. without the shedding of blood there is NO remission of sins..

Water Baptism is for those who believe..

The Spirit baptism, which only God can impart, is what places us into the body of Christ.. for by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.. that's His body.. and He sets each member in place as it pleases Himself.

 

[Theophorus]

Thanks for your 'flaming' opinion Theo.. although I trust in my Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins through His precious shed blood. I am saved by the power of God through the Gospel of God concerning His Son, as it alone is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.

If that is trusting in myself in your opinion, then so be it.

"Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are ... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us" (John 17:11; 20-21).


Special attention must be focused upon these words of Christ, for in them the essence of all Christianity is clearly defined. Christianity is not some sort of abstract teaching which is accepted by the mind and found by each person separately. To the contrary, Christianity is a life in which separate persons are so united among themselves that their unity can be likened to the unity of the Persons of the Holy Trinity. Christ did not pray only that His teaching be preserved so that it would spread throughout all the universe. He prayed for the unification of all those believing in Him. Christ prayed to His heavenly Father for the establishment, more correctly, for the restoration, on earth of the natural unity of all mankind. Mankind was created from one common origin and of one source (cf. Acts 17:26)....



...In the aforementioned words of Christ, the truth of the Church is placed into the tightest union with the mystery of the All-holy Trinity....



...The idea of the Church as a new, perfect community as distinct from a community of the state organization is profoundly and beautifully expressed in the kontakion for the feast of the Descent of the Holy Spirit, when the Church recalls and celebrates its beginning. "When the Most High came down and confused the tongues, He divided the nations, but when He distributed the tongues of fire, He called all into unity. Therefore, with one accord we glorify the All-holy Spirit." Here the creation of the Church is placed into opposition to the Tower of Babel and the "confusing of tongues," at which time God, the Most High, came down, confused the tongues and divided the nations....



... There are an increasing number of people among us who dream of some sort of churchless Christianity. These people have a seemingly constant anarchical system of thought. They are either incapable, or more often, are simply too lazy to think through to the end of their thoughts.
Without even speaking of the most evident contradictions of the churchless quasi-Christianity, it is always possible to see that it is completely void of the genuine Grace of Christian life, and the inspiration and quickening of the Spirit.
When people take the Gospel book, forgetting that the Church gave it to them, then it becomes like the Koran, said to have been dropped by Allah from the sky. When they somehow contrive to overlook the teaching about the Church in it, then all that remains of Christianity is the teaching, so powerless to re-create life and man, as is every philosophical system.
Our forebears, Adam and Eve, sought to become "like gods" without God, relying on the magical power of the beautiful "apple." This is how many of our contemporaries dream of being saved: with the Gospel, but without the Church and without the God-man. They hope on the book of the Gospel exactly as Adam and Eve hope on the paradise apple.
The book, however, does not have the power to give them a new life. People who deny the Church constantly speak about "evangelical principles," about evangelical teaching; but Christianity as life is completely alien to them.
In the churchless form, Christianity is only a sound, now and then sentimental, but always a caricature and lifeless. It is precisely these people who, while denying the Church, have made Christianity, in the words of V. S. Soloviev, "deathly boring." As David Strauss observed, "When the edifice of the Church is destroyed and, on the bare, poorly leveled place, there is erected only the edifying sermon, the result is sad and terrible."...



...Protestant false teaching is disgraced by this same lifelessness. What have the Protestants attained, having obscured the concept of the Church with their philosophizing? They have attained only disunity, and most hopeless disunity. Protestantism is constantly breaking down into more sects. There is no Protestant Church life, but some sort of "scarcely living" life of separate sects and communities.
Protestantism has killed the general Church life, about which the Lord Jesus Christ prayed in that first sacred prayer....



....for many of our contemporaries, the genuine Orthodox Christian ideal of the Church appeared to be too lofty. People have now become so stagnated and stiffened in their self-love, that the Orthodox concept of the Church seems to them to be some sort of coercion of personality, an incomprehensible and unnecessary despotism. The Orthodox concept of the Church demands from everyone much self-denial, humility, and love. Thus, in the hearts of our contemporaries, which are impoverished of love and for whom the dearest thing is self-love, this ideal is a burden too uncomfortable to carry.."

St. Ilarion (Troitsky), Holy New Martyr of Russia
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/sthilarion_church.aspx

 

[WarriorAngel]

You forget, non-RCs/EOs don't believe any person is infallible. I only quote Augustine to show how blatantly false the assertions made by RCs that all of the ECFs were RC and taught and believed as your Church does today. Essentially, I only have to quote one father to tear down that argument and to show "Unanimous Consent" to be non-existant.



I don't appeal to him to affirm my beliefs, but to disprove your unfounded claims.

God Bless!

Lisa

Indeed no man is infallible, but the Spirit of God uses man as 'His infallible' tool at such necessary times...as when the Pope who speaks for the infallible Church that is led by the Spirit which is the only reason she is infallible, but the Spirit leads...as He did also in the Apostles.

The whole bit of faith comes down to what the Apostles taught and how the Spirit has been able over all obstacles, to maintain the truth in all times and to keep errors out at all times.

In my perspective I have faith in God, His Son Christ, Who Promised the Spirit to keep the Church built upon Peter for mankind...
then I also have faith His Church cannot fail.

In my life that is utter trust and complete faith.

This is why I am Catholic, because I have utter faith in the Spirit. WHO is stronger than man, stronger than evil, and even stronger than ego.

And in Christ's uncompromising Word....

Matthew 16
13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

 

[ETide]

"Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are ... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us" (John 17:11; 20-21).


Special attention must be focused upon these words of Christ, for in them the essence of all Christianity is clearly defined. Christianity is not some sort of abstract teaching which is accepted by the mind and found by each person separately. To the contrary, Christianity is a life in which separate persons are so united among themselves that their unity can be likened to the unity of the Persons of the Holy Trinity. Christ did not pray only that His teaching be preserved so that it would spread throughout all the universe. He prayed for the unification of all those believing in Him. Christ prayed to His heavenly Father for the establishment, more correctly, for the restoration, on earth of the natural unity of all mankind. Mankind was created from one common origin and of one source (cf. Acts 17:26)....



...In the aforementioned words of Christ, the truth of the Church is placed into the tightest union with the mystery of the All-holy Trinity....



...The idea of the Church as a new, perfect community as distinct from a community of the state organization is profoundly and beautifully expressed in the kontakion for the feast of the Descent of the Holy Spirit, when the Church recalls and celebrates its beginning. "When the Most High came down and confused the tongues, He divided the nations, but when He distributed the tongues of fire, He called all into unity. Therefore, with one accord we glorify the All-holy Spirit." Here the creation of the Church is placed into opposition to the Tower of Babel and the "confusing of tongues," at which time God, the Most High, came down, confused the tongues and divided the nations....



... There are an increasing number of people among us who dream of some sort of churchless Christianity. These people have a seemingly constant anarchical system of thought. They are either incapable, or more often, are simply too lazy to think through to the end of their thoughts.
Without even speaking of the most evident contradictions of the churchless quasi-Christianity, it is always possible to see that it is completely void of the genuine Grace of Christian life, and the inspiration and quickening of the Spirit.
When people take the Gospel book, forgetting that the Church gave it to them, then it becomes like the Koran, said to have been dropped by Allah from the sky. When they somehow contrive to overlook the teaching about the Church in it, then all that remains of Christianity is the teaching, so powerless to re-create life and man, as is every philosophical system.
Our forebears, Adam and Eve, sought to become "like gods" without God, relying on the magical power of the beautiful "apple." This is how many of our contemporaries dream of being saved: with the Gospel, but without the Church and without the God-man. They hope on the book of the Gospel exactly as Adam and Eve hope on the paradise apple.
The book, however, does not have the power to give them a new life. People who deny the Church constantly speak about "evangelical principles," about evangelical teaching; but Christianity as life is completely alien to them.
In the churchless form, Christianity is only a sound, now and then sentimental, but always a caricature and lifeless. It is precisely these people who, while denying the Church, have made Christianity, in the words of V. S. Soloviev, "deathly boring." As David Strauss observed, "When the edifice of the Church is destroyed and, on the bare, poorly leveled place, there is erected only the edifying sermon, the result is sad and terrible."...



...Protestant false teaching is disgraced by this same lifelessness. What have the Protestants attained, having obscured the concept of the Church with their philosophizing? They have attained only disunity, and most hopeless disunity. Protestantism is constantly breaking down into more sects. There is no Protestant Church life, but some sort of "scarcely living" life of separate sects and communities.
Protestantism has killed the general Church life, about which the Lord Jesus Christ prayed in that first sacred prayer....



....for many of our contemporaries, the genuine Orthodox Christian ideal of the Church appeared to be too lofty. People have now become so stagnated and stiffened in their self-love, that the Orthodox concept of the Church seems to them to be some sort of coercion of personality, an incomprehensible and unnecessary despotism. The Orthodox concept of the Church demands from everyone much self-denial, humility, and love. Thus, in the hearts of our contemporaries, which are impoverished of love and for whom the dearest thing is self-love, this ideal is a burden too uncomfortable to carry.."

St. Ilarion (Troitsky), Holy New Martyr of Russia
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/sthilarion_church.aspx

Theo,

To be brief.. this simply reminds me of how the largest religious institutions on the planet, mainly the RCC and the OC, have no understanding of what the church of God actually is..

It should amaze me.. although I've seen it now through 60 plus pages on this thread, and people still think that their church is the church of God..

As for the Lord's prayer concerning unity or one-ness in Him, that is absolutely a reality in those who have been sealed by GOD with His Spirit.. CHRIST IN US, our hope of glory.. and it still amazes me that people like the pope would be refered to as the Holy Father, whom our Lord prayed to.. or that the OC head honcho would be refered to as his most holiness, or something ridiculous like that..

But such are those who claim to be the church of God..

 

[S Walch]

"Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are ... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word; That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us" (John 17:11; 20-21).


Special attention must be focused upon these words of Christ.... *some rather use less drivel*

Wow, that's an amazing high horse you're on. I hope the great plummeting drop won't hurt you too much.

 

[racer]

Indeed no man is infallible, but the Spirit of God uses man as 'His infallible' tool at such necessary times...as when the Pope who speaks for the infallible Church that is led by the Spirit which is the only reason she is infallible, but the Spirit leads...as He did also in the Apostles.

I know all of that. I don’t remember who, but one of them quoted a Protestant Scholar as proof substantiating his argument when I told him he had not proven his case. I reminded him that non-RCs do not consider anyone infallible, therefore to post a Protestant Scholar as definitive proof was pointless. So, then, JCrawf smarted off something about it being odd because I was citing ECFs to validate my arguments. So, I was pointing out that I did not quote them to prove my case, but to reveal the fallacies of theirs.

The whole bit of faith comes down to what the Apostles taught and how the Spirit has been able over all obstacles, to maintain the truth in all times and to keep errors out at all times.

Faith in what the apostles taught? What about what Jesus taught? Nobody doubts the ability of the Spirit. But, we don’t have to wonder or base our understandings of what Jesus actually taught, because we have it in print.

In my perspective I have faith in God, His Son Christ, Who Promised the Spirit to keep the Church built upon Peter for mankind...then I also have faith His Church cannot fail.

Believing in the concept of Sola Scriptura does not mean that anybody doubts that the church will prevail until the end. Scripture tells us it is so.

In my life that is utter trust and complete faith.

In my life, my utter faith and trust is in God.

This is why I am Catholic, because I have utter faith in the Spirit. WHO is stronger than man, stronger than evil, and even stronger than ego.

That’s is why I’m Christian—period. (I’m not implying that RCs are not Christian. It’s just that such labels are unimportant to God)

And in Christ's uncompromising Word....

Matthew 16
13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

St. Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, Book I

Meaning of Giving the Keys to the Church

Chapter 18 - The keys given to the Church He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe, and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church. For he who does not believe that his sins can be pardoned, falls into despair, and becomes worse, as if no greater good remained for him than to be evil, when he has ceased to have faith in the results of his own repentance.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Holy Mumbo jumbo Batman, this guy has got it all skewed up.

Theo,

To be brief.. this simply reminds me of how the largest religious institutions on the planet, mainly the RCC and the OC, have no understanding of what the church of God actually is..

Ever wonder why your sect is so small? Because its rather new. The numbers are another way to tell how OLD an institution is. Ancient in fact.

It should amaze me.. although I've seen it now through 60 plus pages on this thread, and people still think that their church is the church of God..

Um, we know the Spirit in unfailing...would you agree?

As for the Lord's prayer concerning unity or one-ness in Him, that is absolutely a reality in those who have been sealed by GOD with His Spirit.. CHRIST IN US, our hope of glory.. and it still amazes me that people like the pope would be refered to as the Holy Father, whom our Lord prayed to..

Holy mackeral...do you honestly think that is what we believe??? No, tell me you jest...

First of all, Paul said he was our father thru Christ...he beget us in His name. That is true for all the Church fathers. NONE, not the Pope claims nor do Catholics [who know their faith that ever once misunderstood this as badly as this.] he never claims to be the one prayed too. Nor did Christ ever pray to him.

Where the heck did you get that 'stuff' from??

He is the Pope which is a nickname for Papa which is to show him as the leaders of fathers...he never claimed to be God.

O Heavens to mergatroy.

or that the OC head honcho would be refered to as his most holiness, or something ridiculous like that..

But such are those who claim to be the church of God..

For in case you don't get it, titles are titles but not one refers to themsleves above or equal to God.

The title is really in reference to their position of being the Lord's [assistant] head on earth.

Not being God themselves.

:o

 

[xapis]

Ever wonder why your sect is so small? Because its rather new. The numbers are another way to tell how OLD an institution is. Ancient in fact.

"My dog's bigger than your dog"
"My dog's older than your dog"

blah... blah... blah...

 

[ETide]

"My dog's bigger than your dog"
"My dog's older than your dog"

blah... blah... blah...

That's about the gist of it.. 60 plus pages of people saying that their church is the church of God..

 

[Robskiwarrior]

That's about the gist of it.. 60 plus pages of people saying that their church is the church of God..

lol yup funny isnt it Yahuweh never established a "Church"

Never mind maybe one day people will realise these things before its too late.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I know all of that. I don’t remember who, but one of them quoted a Protestant Scholar as proof substantiating his argument when I told him he had not proven his case. I reminded him that non-RCs do not consider anyone infallible, therefore to post a Protestant Scholar as definitive proof was pointless. So, then, JCrawf smarted off something about it being odd because I was citing ECFs to validate my arguments. So, I was pointing out that I did not quote them to prove my case, but to reveal the fallacies of theirs.

NO one considers man infallible, but the Spirit of God Whom protects the Church is infallible.

DID not Christ leave His Spirit with them?

You do trust and believe in scriptures...correct?
Who wrote the scriptures racer?

Men wrote the scriptures infallibly by the same Spirit Who was with them.

Did Christ ever prophecy that the Spirit would leave them at any time?

Or did He say for 'all time' or rather...til the end of time?
Yes, til the very end of time.

That means He is still with the successors and He is not going to leave...
Because the Church must always have the Spirit Promised to them, to teach the infallible writings in an infallible authority.

Faith in what the apostles taught? What about what Jesus taught? Nobody doubts the ability of the Spirit. But, we don’t have to wonder or base our understandings of what Jesus actually taught, because we have it in print.

[/b]

Believing in the concept of Sola Scriptura does not mean that anybody doubts that the church will prevail until the end. Scripture tells us it is so.



In my life, my utter faith and trust is in God.

God is three Divine Persons, and of which the Spirit will always be the guide to the Church, and therefore she cannot err.

This is how we trust the Ancient Churches, because the infallibility of the Spirit to keep corruption from ever prevailing against the CHURCH CHRIST built.

That’s is why I’m Christian—period. (I’m not implying that RCs are not Christian. It’s just that such labels are unimportant to God)

How do we know what He feels about the mockery of the truth He kept infallibly perfect within the Church he built?

St. Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, Book I

Meaning of Giving the Keys to the Church

Chapter 18 - The keys given to the ChurchHe has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe, and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church. For he who does not believe that his sins can be pardoned, falls into despair, and becomes worse, as if no greater good remained for him than to be evil, when he has ceased to have faith in the results of his own repentance.

And they must be of the SAME FAITH.
Same faith of the Church.

Although technically, the wording is much different to Peter than to all of them, again He did not repeat the same to them all, but did include Peter in also forgiving sins.

Whatsoever is an object...and an object spoken of by Peter.

Whosoever sins...is in reference to forgiving sins.

Now aside racer...can you believe that men, ordained by Christ Himself, can forgive sins?

 

[Theophorus]

Theo,

To be brief.. this simply reminds me of how the largest religious institutions on the planet, mainly the RCC and the OC, have no understanding of what the church of God actually is..

Why don't they get it ETide? They have not bothered to read the scriptures they placed into the cannon of your bible?

The Church is not just a hypothetical assembly of ununited beliefs. If you claim that is the teaching of the NT I could tediously list for you a miriad of verses to the contrary.

It should amaze me.. although I've seen it now through 60 plus pages on this thread, and people still think that their church is the church of God..

It's not my Church. But should I accept the teachings of the ancient church on what constitutes unity of faith, or yours which relegates everything to being a symbol or a shadow, such as communion and baptism.

FYI, the shadow was the law and the prophets and the nation of Isreal. The shadows and the veil have been lifted and Christ is manifested in the Church. You do remember that Christ said to Paul when he was persecuting the Church, "Why do you persecute Me?" And that Paul later says that Christ loves the Church and nourishes as His own flesh?

As for the Lord's prayer concerning unity or one-ness in Him, that is absolutely a reality in those who have been sealed by GOD with His Spirit.. CHRIST IN US, our hope of glory.. and it still amazes me that people like the pope would be refered to as the Holy Father, whom our Lord prayed to.. or that the OC head honcho would be refered to as his most holiness, or something ridiculous like that..

But such are those who claim to be the church of God..

What this prayer has to do with pride having a hard time accepting the titles for the Pope or clergy is beyond me.

The fact of the matter is Christ's prayer was for unity grounded in truth. If you think that a oneness pentacostal shares this unity with an independant baptist, thern the burden of proof lies with you.

 

[Trento]

The next verse speaks of those who do not believe (but there's no mention of baptism, because baptism is for believers, not unbelievers), they will be damned.

Our Lord says that if you believe NOT that I am He (the Messiah), then you will die in your sins.. without the shedding of blood there is NO remission of sins..

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:1-16; interestingly, in these two chapter of Romans St. Paul summarizes Wisdom 13-19)

The ``law unto themselves'' is man's participation in God's eternal law, sometimes known as the natural law. Significantly, St. Paul has not mentioned faith in Christ as a condition for knowledge of this natural law: it is a law knowable by all men without respect to creed. As St. Paul says, it is written on men's hearts, though it can be clouded by sin.

St. Luke, who was a disciple of St. Paul, reports in his gospel the words of Jesus:

And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. (Lk 12:47-48, cf. Lk 19:26, Mt 25:29, Mk 4:25)

It is finally God alone who sees into men's hearts and what truth they have been given in life, and it is he who will judge on this basis. It is not for human judges to divide the sheep from the goats.

Water Baptism is for those who believe..

The Spirit baptism, which only God can impart, is what places us into the body of Christ.. for by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.. that's His body.. and He sets each member in place as it pleases Himself.

[/size]

What God would deceive His followers for 1600 yrs.?)

Being a cradle Catholic I have always understood Scripture in the light of Christ’s apostolic teachings and have never seen the slightest conflict. Christ created His Church and its teachings are His. The Christian Scriptures were constructed and ADDED to the Church teaching traditions, not to replace the Church (as Luther tried) but to support it.

The Word of God” in the NT is defined as Apostolic teachings, practices, liturgy, preaching, traditions, authority but also this includes the writings that made up the NT..
The Apostles were lead to all truth by the Holy Spirit and whatever they passed down through the Church was the objective truth of God’s revelation in Jesus.
Corinthians 2:13
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

Those that would limit “The word of God” to personal interpretation of Scripture, vandalise the very Scripture they promote (as the source of their personal “insights” and private opinions that form the bases of their very own religion.) as it does not support their rebellious activities..
The longer I read posts on this site the stronger is my Catholic Faith as I see nothing but futile scratching and gouging against the pillar and foundation of truth (1Tim 3:15)

Ephesians 3:10
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms.
Anyway after that intro, the point I want to make is that one cannot get blood from a stone.

It is impossible to obtain the objective truth that is revelation – the encounter with Christ ( He is truth itself) by a system based on subjective opinion.

It is inevitable that thousands of religions will result from sincere people forging a personal understanding using Scripture in isolation of revealed truth, given and passed down by the Apostles through the Church instigated for that purpose (Eph.3:10).
Promoting Scripture alone is a formula made to create division and uncertainty within the people of God.- It validates any individual's position against all others with no way to have a final authorative decision.
If wrong conclusions are made they are made in ignorance as Scripture does not, can not speak out and say " hey that is the wrong understanding" , or have the writer speak out from the written record "hey that is not what I taught through the Church", "that is not the understanding I had when I wrote" etc; etc; - the reader stays in ignorance until they compare their "insights" with the teachings of Christ's Church.
Take the very means of salvation.

We have those of the Pentecostal persuasion promoting some truth in knowing the necessity of sanctification for salvation but distorting the emphasis so much to claim those who are Baptised in the Spirit and speak tongues go to Heaven and those who do not to Hell – all this “proved” by Scripture alone.

We have those who claim salvation is by election alone – that God decides before we are born to send us to Hell or to Heaven and we are totally passive to His salvation. Again this is “proved” by Scripture alone.

We have those who claim salvation is by fiducial faith alone – a legal declaration of alien righteousness based on the premise of being less than perfect under the Law and the need for someone to “pay the price” – allowing one to continue in sin but deemed righteous.

We have arguments about whether Baptism regenerates, is necessary, the nature of Grace, the need for charity/love for salvation as well as faith, the need and understanding of sanctification/holiness – all different but all from the same source devising every wind of doctrine.

The constant daily diatribe says “where is that in Scripture?? Fact is Catholic teachings are all in complete harmony with Scripture properly understood (which may exclude many here) and have to be as it was the Catholic Church that selected the NT.
The Catholic Church did not add anything to Scripture – it added Scripture to the Church.

Scripture does not suggest that “The Word of God” is held by Scripture alone – or by personal interpretation alone - that is a Protestant fallacy.

The oldest Church in Christendom was established by St Thomas the Apostle who went to India. It is dated in the State of Kerala from 52AD. It still functions today. It still resides with the same teachings it promoted 2000 yrs, ago, the same as St Patrick took to Ireland. It is part of the same Church that 300 yrs after it was founded constructed and proclaimed the NT. It is a Catholic Church.

 

[Theophorus]

Wow, that's an amazing high horse you're on. I hope the great plummeting drop won't hurt you too much.

Why don't you interpret this verse for us then. Please show us the convoluted way in which we can all not be bothered by it any longer.

 

[WarriorAngel]

You do remember that Christ said to Paul when he was persecuting the Church, "Why do you persecute Me?" And that Paul later says that Christ loves the Church and nourishes as His own flesh?

.........Amen!

 

[Theophorus]

lol yup funny isnt it Yahuweh never established a "Church"

Never mind maybe one day people will realise these things before its too late.

If you wish to play semantics that is fine. The "congregation"/community was established by Christ. Of course we have the Saints which shows we have a true undestanding as well as eveidence of the manifestation of this congregation.

The ekklesia is built upon Christ, the first born of many brethren.

 

[lionroar0]

I think we can. Are you implying that the Hypostatic Union is not biblical? That it is solely based on extra-biblical Holy Tradition?

It is Biblical because of Tradition. Tradition tell us what is Biblical and what isn't Biblical. The Scriptures support Tradition, because the Bible is came from and is part of Tradition

Good grief! Everything in Scripture was taught before it was written or taught!

Well not everything is written in the Bible.

There are no verses that say that Jesus is 100% man and 100% GOd. It says nothing of a Hypostatic Union.

Not in those exact words. But, we have this from Scripture:

Jhn 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2; The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:14; And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When read with in Tradition that was taught first. These verses can be intepreted to mean that Jesus is 100% human and 100% God.

When read outside of Tradition they can mean any number of things. They could mean as the gnostics belived, or nestorious.

Well, then if you want to make that assertion, you can lump the Eucharist right up there with it. Because, if you can't read what the Bible says in relationship to Jesus humanness and divinity and conclude what is stated above, then you absolutely could not read it and infer for a second that Jesus was telling us to eat His flesh and drink His blood!

When read with in Tradition the Bible says that the Eucharist is the Blood and Body of Christ. When read outside of Tardition it could mean any number of things.

I just do not understand Christians that fight so fiercely to discredit the word of God, in order to elevate their Church to a level of which God never intended for it to be.

Why would any one discredit the Word of God? How is my agument discreditting the Word of God? WHo is elevating the Church?

I just can't understand how such a simple ideology as Sola Scriptura can be so "misunderstood" by seeingly, highly intelligent people

Because Sola Scriptura isn't part of the Traditions. It entered the seen in the 1600's.

 

[Trento]

Robskiwarrior lol yup funny isnt it Yahuweh never established a "Church"

Never mind maybe one day people will realise these things before its too late.

It looks like you ignore Christian History even by non Catholic Scholars.

Protestan Historical Scholar Philip Schaff -- HISTORY of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH
CHAPTER IV:

The ministerial office was instituted by the Lord before his ascension, and solemnly inaugurated on the first Christian Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, to be the regular organ of the kingly power of Christ on earth in founding, maintaining, and extending the church. It appears in the New Testament under different names, descriptive of its various functions:—the "ministry of the word," "of the Spirit," "of righteousness," "of reconciliation." It includes the preaching of the gospel, the administration of the sacraments, and church discipline or the power of the keys, the power to open and shut the gates of the kingdom of heaven, in other words, to declare to the penitent the forgiveness of sins, and to the unworthy excommunication in the name and by the Authority of Christ.
The idea and institution of a special priesthood, distinct from the body of the people, with the accompanying notion of sacrifice and altar, passed imperceptibly from Jewish reminiscences and analogies into the Christian church.
In the external organization of the church, several important changes appear in the period before us. The distinction of clergy and laity, and the sacerdotal view of the ministry becomes prominent and fixed; subordinate church offices are multiplied; the episcopate arises; the beginnings of the Roman primacy appear; and the exclusive unity of the Catholic church develops itself in opposition to heretics and schismatics. The apostolical organization of the first century now gives place to the old Catholic episcopal system.