Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

[GenemZ]

Because of the reason which I stated.. some people are quick to say that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and then they'll ignore the scriptural description of the church of God which that verse is applicable to.. ie, they'll claim that their church is the church..

The mistake they make, is that they see the Church as being an institution, not the corporate body of all believers in Christ. They see the Church as an 'institution,' rather than the body of Christ.

Trouble is, someone in the beginning should have given a different name for the institution established for the Church to meet in, and half this problem with confused semantics would have been avoided.

In other words. The Church meets for worship in church. Where they meet is not what Christ founded upon the rock. If that were the case? We would all still be meeting in the homes of fellow believers, like the first Churches were.

What if we called the church organization, Heaven's Portal?" Then when Jesus said he would found his Church upon the Rock, some would not get the wrong idea about what Jesus spoke of.

AND, there were many folks who were confronted with the TRUTH in the person of Jesus Christ.. ie, right in front of them.. although their delusion in claiming that they could see outweighed their ability to see..

Welcome to the world of the Spiritual life hidden in Christ! (not that you do not know this).....


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[stray bullet]

Yet, when asked to identify these elusive "T"raditions, it seems that no one of either faith can quite put a finger on them . . . . .

You mean like when you ask what the bible teaches?

 

[nephilimiyr]

The point is.. (in case I'm not making it clear, or if you're not getting it).. is that they will accept scripture which states that the church of God is the pillar and foundation of the truth, but then ignore the scriptural foundation of what the church of God actually is.. ie, they will claim that THEIR CHURCH is the church of God, rather than what scripture teaches.

No, you made yourself perfectly clear. And I am in agreement with you on that. The thing I'm pointing out is that the other side has it's own interpretations of those verses and has others to bring forward that they believe shows that what they say is true.

I was just kinda hopeing you would play along with me and answer my questions...I didn't think that was such a bad thing to ask for...

 

[ETide]

No, you made yourself perfectly clear. And I am in agreement with you on that. The thing I'm pointing out is that the other side has it's own interpretations of those verses and has others to bring forward that they believe shows that what they say is true.

I was just kinda hopeing you would play along with me and answer my questions...I didn't think that was such a bad thing to ask for...

Well, I'm pretty slow.. sorry 'bout that..

When we study the scriptural aspects of the church of God.. it's not so much a matter of our interpretations imo.. because let's face it.. who would come up with the statement that their church is the church of God, based on the scriptures..

That's not an intepretation issue in my estimation.. it goes well beyond the boundaries of scripture and into the realm of personal opinion.. even if those opinions are historical.. they're still not scripturally based, but unscripturally and historically biased..

 

[WarriorAngel]

The mistake they make, is that they see the Church as being an institution, not the corporate body of all believers in Christ. They see the Church as an 'institution,' rather than the body of Christ.

Not to be a poophead........but why do ppl insist we make the mistakes?
If we are mistaken ......we have 2000 years behind us with the same mistakes the Apostles taught.

When the Epistles of the Bible tells them to not sue their brother but [eventually as a last resort] take them to the Church......I dont think he was referring to the ppl who made up the Church, BUT the instructors of the Church.

And when it says the Church is the pillar and Bulwark of truth, I dont think he was referring to the PPL being the truth, but the DOCTRINES of the Church.

 

[ETide]

[/size]

The mistake they make, is that they see the Church as being an institution, not the corporate body of all believers in Christ. They see the Church as an 'institution,' rather than the body of Christ.

And so the question is...

Why.. ?

 

[lionroar0]

[/size]

The mistake they make, is that they see the Church as being an institution, not the corporate body of all believers in Christ. They see the Church as an 'institution,' rather than the body of Christ.

Trouble is, someone in the beginning should have given a different name for the institution established for the Church to meet in, and half this problem with confused semantics would have been avoided.

In other words. The Church meets for worship in church. Where they meet is not what Christ founded upon the rock. If that were the case? We would all still be meeting in the homes of fellow believers, like the first Churches were.

What if we called the church organization, Heaven's Portal?" Then when Jesus said he would found his Church upon the Rock, some would not get the wrong idea about what Jesus spoke of.





Welcome to the world of the Spiritual life hidden in Christ! (not that you do not know this).....


In Christ, GeneZ

They see the Church as an 'institution,' rather than the body of Christ.

This is nothing but a misconception. A body has to have an order it has two hands, 2 feet, ect.. all of this being controled by the head. Can the feet be the head? or can the arms be the head? or can the head suddenly become the hands?

A body even a the Body of Christ has to have order and structure to work properly.

Compare this to protestanism.

One church belives on a beliver's baptism another, belives in infant baptism, another in child dedication, and still anothers baptism is not nessecarry.

One church belives in the literal interpretation of the Bible. Another is more allegorical, still another belives insome of the councils not all, some don't follow the Creed and make one up of their own,

Does this sound like the Body of Christ? One church teaching one thing and another church(sometimes under the same tradition.)?

Relativism is not the way of orthodox christianity.



Peace

 

[lionroar0]

And so the question is...

Why.. ?

We do not see the Church as an institution. We see the Church as a body of belivers with a God given institution to guide the Church.

There's a difference.

Peace

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Who told you that the Bible/Scripture is the divinely inspired word of God?

I have not a clue who "you" is, but I'll answer it for ME...
Christians did.
Virtually all of them.
From the beginning.
And before them, Jews.
I addressed thd issue in my two posts above this one.

I guess a question could be asked of Catholics - who told you that your denomination (and her Magisterium and Tradition) is equal to or above that divinely inspired written Word of God? I guess another question could be asked: Which would you give greater credibility to: One who self-claims infallibility and unaccountability for themself, or one who asks you to regard all - including them - accountable to to a higher authority's word? But I expressed my thoughts on those issue in my two posts above this one, as well.


Can you appreciate how some would answer those questions differently than the (Latin) Roman (Rite) Catholic denomination?


Friend, I recall Jesus leaving us with the Great Commandment to love one another even as He first loved us. He left us with the Great Commission to go and makes disciples for Him of all people. He left us with an example of surpreme humility and service. He left us with the wise and firm counsel to not lord it over other believers. Frankly, I don't see a great deal of any of that - except for a lot of lording it over other believers. Some individual people and denominations doing a lot of that - perhaps even lording it over the Lord and His Word.



Just MY thoughts...
ZooMom, what are yours?


Pax.



- Josiah



.

 

[ETide]

Who told you that the Bible/Scripture is the divinely inspired word of God?

This is a very deep and thought provoking question.. it's funny, because it immediately made me think of the Lord asking Adam the question..

Who told thee that thou wast naked?

That too, is a very interesting question.. although as for who has told me that the scriptures are divine..? ..that would be the spirit and the life of the words which speak the truth in love.

It would be like that woman at the well in John 4, when she was confronted with the Word of truth.. the Word of life.. she would simply say.. come and see a man who told me all things that ever I did...can this be the Christ..?

It would be like the men who were sent to apprehend the Lord.. when asked why they did not bring Him to them.. they simply said.. never man spake like this man..

When the hardened centurion watched Him give up the Ghost at Calvary's cross.. he would simply say.. surely this man was the Son of God..

The word of God speaks to the heart of man.. for it is the mind of Christ communing with men and reasoning with them.. convicting them, convincing them, enpowering them, and lifting them up to the glories of heaven..

Speaking to them of His love and grace that excels far beyond their widest imaginations..

His words truly are Spirit and they are life.. and this new wine must surely be put into new skins.. for the old can not contain it..

 

[WarriorAngel]

Who told you that the Bible/Scripture is the divinely inspired word of God?

The Catholic Church. The same Church who has been here since the beginning, and who gathered and kept the Epistles and Gospels and choose which was to be placed in canon and read and referred to in all the Churches of the ONE Holy Catholic Church under the guide of Apostolic Tradition and succession.

 

[WarriorAngel]

We do not see the Church as an institution. We see the Church as a body of belivers with a God given institution to guide the Church.

There's a difference.

Peace

It is not only the people, but the Teachers, Preachers, the Doctrines, the Pope, and the whole enchilada.

And as you said..the hands, feet, head, etc......all in one neat package.

So it is not just one person standing alone.....as in the Pope, and not just a group of people coming together who define their own beliefs..... but One Holy Church with one body!!

Undivided. None can define their own faith under the ONE roof, but all remain or must remain loyal to the One Teaching since Christ and the Doctrines He gave them to Teach.

So if you go to Africa, they teach the same and have the same readings as you would find in Australia, Austria, Netherlands, Scotland, United States, Canada, Peru, Italy...etc

There are no variations of teaching....and again ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

 

[Asinner]

[/size]

The mistake they make, is that they see the Church as being an institution, not the corporate body of all believers in Christ. They see the Church as an 'institution,' rather than the body of Christ.

No. The Church of Christ is not an institution. The Church that Christ established has His attributes. Christ is not defined by us, the believers, but rather it is Him, Christ, who defines us. The Church is Holy as Christ is Holy. You don't believe what you have never seen nor partaken in.

God Bless

 

[GenemZ]

The Catholic Church. The same Church who has been here since the beginning,

Its not the same. I must keep reminding you about the Inquisitions to reveal that the RCC had gone through drastic change from the original Church. It would also have a very strong Jewish approach to teaching (no ex cathedra) if it were the same. If it had not changed? The Word of God would be paramount above all else.


Its changed a lot. I can not see my Jewish roots in the RCC anywhere to be found. I am not talking "Messianic." I am talking about the likes of Paul, John, and Peter. It does not resemble the original Church at all. The costumes they wear are nothing to do with what the Apostles wore. Apostle Peter was married. Paul was not. Pastors and Apostles were allowed to marry.

Things have drastically changed.


In Christ, GeneZ

 

[stray bullet]

The Inquisition was not drastic change from the original church, if you look at it for what it actually was, instead of what it is remember as- within the Spanish government.

Inquisition was totally in line with the teachings of the Church- certainly a scan through Paul's epistles reveals this.

 

[racer]

Who told you that the Bible/Scripture is the divinely inspired word of God?

God.

 

[racer]

You mean like when you ask what the bible teaches?

No.

 

[racer]

Not to be a poophead........but why do ppl insist we make the mistakes?

I'm guessing for the same reasons people of your faith claim that you are right and everybody else is wrong.

If we are mistaken ......we have 2000 years behind us with the same mistakes the Apostles taught.

Sounds good and looks good on paper. But, the facts just do not support this claim. You can repeat over and over and over . . . or like I've said before, click your red slippers together while repeating the mantra three times. When you open your eyes, you're still in Oz, Dorothy.

When the Epistles of the Bible tells them to not sue their brother but [eventually as a last resort] take them to the Church......I dont think he was referring to the ppl who made up the Church, BUT the instructors of the Church.

I think you're wrong. If you read Scripture very closely, you'll notice that when the epistles mention the "church," they are referring to the Body of Christ, not the elders only.

And when it says the Church is the pillar and Bulwark of truth, I dont think he was referring to the PPL being the truth, but the DOCTRINES of the Church.

Well, is the Body of Christ not truth?

 

[racer]

The Catholic Church. The same Church who has been here since the beginning, and who gathered and kept the Epistles and Gospels and choose which was to be placed in canon and read and referred to in all the Churches of the ONE Holy Catholic Church under the guide of Apostolic Tradition and succession.

Are you really crediting God's glory to the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[Lynn73]

Sounds good and looks good on paper. But, the facts just do not support this claim. You can repeat over and over and over . . . or like I've said before, click your red slippers together while repeating the matra three times. When you open your eyes, you're still in Oz, Dorothy.

Yep!