calmcoolandelected
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"you must spread some reputation around before giving to Genez again."genez said:
CC&E
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"you must spread some reputation around before giving to Genez again."genez said:Mine starts with, "Preface."
That's the key.
Some will find the truth.
Others will not.
God knows who is true.
1 Corinthians 11:18-19 (New International Version)Now if there were only one organized Church over all? To tell all under it they must conform to the same things? How could God sort out those whom he approves of, from those whom he does not?
"In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval."
It is God who desires there to be differences made manifest. That way, the free stay free, and those who desire error, are to reap what they sow amongst themselves. Forced together? The free are not able to be free. Or, those who desire error are not free to be wrong. God does not want both together agreeing on the same things. Each is to find his own place. Just as each one of us are to be evaluated before the LORD, alone. Not as a Church. God would prefer all were one and in agreement. But, giving man free will in the midsts of spiritual warfare will have its vistors, and losers. So, God allows for different church organizations to exist. That way, each one can realize his choice. Then, at the evaluation we all answer to God. Those who were led of the Spirit? They will end up finding the good churches.
James 4:6 nivThat passage speaks of believers. Two types. There can not be one Church for both types.
But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
God allows each generation to either reap what they sow, or to reap what he has sown.
God has given us the freedom to dissaociate from the federal governing body if we discern it has become corrupt. That is why we have both the right to bear arms, and were supposed to have state rights. The Inquisition in effect, was a corrupt federal governmental body gone haywire.
The Church in this case is a chosen body of believers given the gift to teach, and are being filled and led by the Spirit of God. In turn, religious leaders also know the Word of God. But, they are not led of the Spirit. Its intellectual prowess that allows for this knowledge. Just like some hold great knowledge in physics. Its all academic, not truly spiritual.
Same held true in Jesus day. The religious leaders had great knowledge of words to be found in the Bible. But, they did not have the life needed to see the correct application.
So... What may have been a great start in the early years of the Church later on became corrupt with compromises and influences from paganism. As a result, God at times had certain men break free. A good number were killed by what was called the Church for that reason. One man I learned about , John Huss, was a prime example of how corrupt the Church had become at that point in time.
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/7.html
The leadership of the Church had become a new breed of Pharisee who now used the name of Christ instead of Moses, claiming they had the fathers of the Church, just like the religious leaders claimed Abraham to be their father. There is nothing new under the sun...
In Christ, GeneZ
Qoheleth said:Ok, then the Bible is the Constitution and the Church is the Supreme Court, which is the final arbiter of the law, so the Church is the final arbiter of scripture.
Whoops, lets not forget it is the Supreme Court (i.e. the Church) decides what is in "harmony" not the words of the Constitution itself.
Rdr Iakovos said:There is not a Christian tradition that has entirely clean hands when it comes to the charge of legalism, oppression, and abuse.
Rdr Iakovos said:There is not a Christian tradition that has entirely clean hands when it comes to the charge of legalism, oppression, and abuse.
genez said:This debate is not a verbal chess game as some see it to be. Its a matter of life, or dead works.
Rdr Iakovos said:How is your flawed interpretation in any way inseparable from the tradition/construct through which you view scripture?
I'd hazard that it is not in any way separable.
genez said:So? We will have idiots spiritually, and the spiritually alive. Both, exposed to the same excellent tradition. Does that mean the tradition failed?
Same argumnet could be used against the Word of God itself!
Romans 9:6 nivYou seem to be trying to say, that the only good tradition should be made idiot proof. That it can only be followed one way and correctly. We have men involved! Men with volitions! Some will choose life. Others? Dead works.
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
If the perfect Word of God will still leave us with unbelievers? How can you place tradition of such a high plane as you have? It makes no sense to try and do that. Of course traditions will not guarantee the results it desires. That does not mean tradition does not have clean hands. You can place soap in the rest room. That does not guarantee all will clean their hands after using the toilet. That means there is something wrong with the soap?
If not? Why even ask what you did?
The Word of God, of grace and truth, is used by some for legalism, oppresion, and abuse in the wrong hands. That means Scripture does not have clean hands?
Where are we? What page? What was your point? Make following sound tradition, a legal matter? Make the Church into tradition-police?
Grace and truth, GeneZ
ETide said:[/font]
Because scripture remains pure and flawless regardless of how diligent or negligent I am in studying.
Many aspects of the scriptures are easily taken in and digested.. other portions demand detailed study and care.. and of course one must be born of the Spirit, having Christ within them (as scripture is spiritually discerned..although the carnal mind can also grasp basic aspects of its contents).. and His Spirit should not be grieved or quenched.. as then we resort back to the carnal..
So imo, it's not some contstruct that is governing these things.. but my fellowship in Christ and the effort which I am willing to engage in studying His word.
I'll respond to your other comments in another post.
No, it does not- which makes one wonder why you make a habit of bringing charges against Catholics for misdeeds done among by those associated with their tradition.genez said:So? We will have idiots spiritually, and the spiritually alive. Both, exposed to the same excellent tradition. Does that mean the tradition failed?
calmcoolandelected said:Exactly. We will be held responsible for how we study Scripture. The Bible also says that God holds those in authority to a higher standard and they will be judged accordingly. (Will happily look up the verses later, have to go pick up my daughter from ballet.)
CC&E
ETide said:[/font]
Because scripture remains pure and flawless regardless of how diligent or negligent I am in studying.
The construct through which you view scripture is the sum total of your life experience, your prejudices, the values of your nation and era, the influences of your peers, the interpretive tradition that you have read from- to deny such influences is to be either intellectually dishonest or misinformed.ETide said:Many aspects of the scriptures are easily taken in and digested.. other portions demand detailed study and care.. and of course one must be born of the Spirit, having Christ within them (as scripture is spiritually discerned..although the carnal mind can also grasp basic aspects of its contents).. and His Spirit should not be grieved or quenched.. as then we resort back to the carnal..
So imo, it's not some contstruct that is governing these things.. but my fellowship in Christ and the effort which I am willing to engage in studying His word.
I'll respond to your other comments in another post.
Now, the placement of punctuation in this verse between saints and "for the work of the ministry" is what my Baptist friend calls 'the unfortunate comma.' You see, we in this rendering have the pastors and teachers perfecting the saints, doing the work of the ministry, and edifying the Body.KJV said:And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Some several hundred years later, deeper into Reformation, the view is that the saints (regular folks) do the work of ministry. That was not the view in 1611, and thus the reading was rendered in the Protestant translation thusly.NASB said:for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Rdr Iakovos said:Some several hundred years later, deeper into Reformation, the view is that the saints (regular folks) do the work of ministry. That was not the view in 1611, and thus the reading was rendered in the Protestant translation thusly.
Rdr Iakovos said:Just like the straight edge in my tool box is reliable. You still use said straight edge with the hands and eyes that God has given you, and so we're back to your construct.
The construct through which you view scripture is the sum total of your life experience, your prejudices, the values of your nation and era, the influences of your peers, the interpretive tradition that you have read from- to deny such influences is to be either intellectually dishonest or misinformed.
Translators read through constructs, and I will prove it. Now, in the Greek manuscripts, originally there was no punctuation. It has been inserted in accordance with rules of English grammar. Now let's look at how the KJV translators handled a certain portion of scripture, and how their placement of a comma reflects their presupposition regarding ministry work:
IgnatiusOfAntioch said:2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter
What does Scripture preach? - the reality is that it is a collection of personal testimonies written by Holy men under the inspirationof the Holy Spirit thus inerrant and sacred to the Church.genez said:These type are with us today. Where are they?
They are to be found in any denomination suited for such a way to work its way in. Who are they? Only Sola Scriptura will shine the light upon these Emperors with no clothes. One hint? They hate the concept of Sola Scriptura and sound exegesis. For, it makes them sweat and work hard for the money. For its more difficult to twist the truth and cover one's trail, than it is to discover the truth and be set free.
That is why I find such debates as these to be painful and producing sorrow in my heart. For I wish all believers would know the Truth about the Written Word; becoming the Living Word in them, when the believer accepts sound doctrine and the Spirit in him brings that Word to life.
In Christ, GeneZ
That is why I find such debates as these to be painful and producing sorrow in my heart. For I wish all believers would know the Truth about the Written Word; becoming the Living Word in them, when the believer accepts sound doctrine and the Spirit in him brings that Word to life.
7cworldwide said:Tradition wasn't declared equal to the Scriptures by the RCC until the Council of Trent in the 16th century... interestingly, that declaration is newer than Protestantism.
My question: What led to the RCC decision to declare Tradition equal to the Scriptures?
That is why I find such debates as these to be painful and producing sorrow in my heart. For I wish all believers would know the Truth about the Written Word; becoming the Living Word in them, when the believer accepts sound doctrine and the Spirit in him brings that Word to life.
7cworldwide said:If it were a chess match, you could say checkmate here... but you're right. It's so much more than that.
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