Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

ETide said:
It's insulting to suggest that it's all a mindless effort, void of understanding.. I'm not sure if this is the entirety of your implication.. but is sure seems that way..

Our understanding of God begins with our belief, not the other way around as you suggest. To see God, we must be pure and humble, like a child. These are not easy virtues to obtain. For many, it takes years and years of toil and sweat, prayer and fasting, to reach a level of understanding of our Creator. It does not come easy.

God Bless

xapis · Jul 18, 2006

CaliforniaJosiah said:
So, Augustine said that.
So much for the oft repeated claim that no one embraced the principle of Sola Scriptura before Luther...

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
Our understanding of God begins with our belief, not the other way around as you suggest. To see God, we must be pure and humble, like a child. These are not easy virtues to obtain. For many, it takes years and years of toil and sweat, prayer and fasting, to reach a level of understanding of our Creator. It does not come easy.

God Bless

It comes through the power and simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ.. for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.

Obviously, an infant has no clue of this..

FreeinChrist · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
What saved Noah?

God Bless

What is the point of your question?

FreeinChrist · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
Again, you are basing His Grace on your intelligence. Perhaps your baptism as an infant is what enabled you to believe on Him years later?

God Bless

Perhaps it was the leading of the Holy Spirit that enabled him to believe later, and not being dipped in water.

FreeinChrist · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
Actually, the ark is a prefigurement of His Church.

The answer is "water".

That is an intepretation, opinion, that the ark prefigures the church.

To answer your question, it was Noah's faith in God that saved him - not the water. It kept him in the ark separated from the water.
Hbr 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned {by God} about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

God Bless

1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water. NASB

Young's Literal translation:
1Pe 3:20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
They weren't saved by the water - as it was the water that destroyed the earth and what lived on it. They wee saved from that destruction.

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

ETide said:
it's important to take the whole counsel of scripture into view..
..

As it is important to take the whole teachings of Christ. God's Word does not begin nor end in the Bible; for He was in the beginning and is eternal and His teachings are representative of Him. They are truth as He is truth. Many teachings were given to the Apostles that you will not acknowledge. Your teaching on baptism is not the teaching left to us by Christ. Can you honestly ignore all of your brethren that came before you, of whose blood the Church is continually being built upon? What of them? Did they all die in vain teaching things you find offensive? May it never be.

God Bless

FreeinChrist · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
As it is important to take the whole teachings of Christ. God's Word does not begin nor end in the Bible; for He was in the beginning and is eternal and His teachings are representative of Him. They are truth as He is truth. Many teachings were given to the Apostles that you will not acknowledge. Your teaching on baptism is not the teaching left to us by Christ. Can you honestly ignore all of your brethren that came before you, of whose blood the Church is continually being built upon? What of them? Did they all die in vain teaching things you find offensive? May it never be.

God Bless

It (our belief about baptism) is a teaching left to us by the Triune God as it is in scripture.

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

FreeinChrist said:
To answer your question, it was Noah's faith in God that saved him - not the water. It kept him in the ark separated from the water.
Hbr 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned {by God} about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

AMEN, we're saved by GRACE through FAITH..

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
As it is important to take the whole teachings of Christ. God's Word does not begin nor end in the Bible; for He was in the beginning and is eternal and His teachings are representative of Him. They are truth as He is truth. Many teachings were given to the Apostles that you will not acknowledge. Your teaching on baptism is not the teaching left to us by Christ. Can you honestly ignore all of your brethren that came before you, of whose blood the Church is continually being built upon? What of them? Did they all die in vain teaching things you find offensive? May it never be.

God Bless

This is largely the subject of this thread, and yet Tradition is supposed to be in agreement with scripture.. as many here claim that they're inseparable..

Yet scripture doesn't support many of the things which you're speaking about.. ie, it's not water that seals us, it's God who seals us with the holy Spirit.

You say that Noah was saved by water, but it's clear enough that he was saved through the water because of the Ark which he built by FAITH.. and scripture affirms this very thing.. we're saved by grace through faith.. faith goes all the way back to the beginning.. even to Abel.. it's embracing the promises of God.

As for the people you're referring to as the church of God.. that's simply speculation.. for the church is not the RCC, or the EC, as so many believe, it's the body of Christ that God has sealed with His Spirit.. the members which He has added to it.. it's really silly to imply that it's only your church, isn't it Asinner..? I can't imagine how people believe that.. although 50 pages of this thread testify to that very thing..

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

FreeinChrist said:
That is an intepretation, opinion, that the ark prefigures the church.

To answer your question, it was Noah's faith in God that saved him - not the water. It kept him in the ark separated from the water.
Hbr 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned {by God} about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1Pe 3:20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water. NASB

Young's Literal translation:
1Pe 3:20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
They weren't saved by the water - as it was the water that destroyed the earth and what lived on it. They wee saved from that destruction.

Yes. Noah was a righteous man.

Titus 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

God Bless

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 18, 2006

FreeinChrist said:
It (our belief about baptism) is a teaching left to us by the Triune God as it is in scripture.

Some of MY personal thoughts.....

1. While the teachings and customs of baptism might be a good EXAMPLE of what we are discussing, it is a different topic... I think discussions get muddy and blurred if it's not kept focused but spins around in countless directions.

2. Baptism IS Scriptural. No one denied this. This, IMO, is of a different nature than the Assumption of Mary or the Infallibility of the Roman Pontiff and some other DOGMAS about which we disagree. Or we could discuss the biblical verses being interpreted for the Catholic position that "It is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." These, IMO, would be far better examples fo this discussion.

3. MY PERSONAL view is that several interpretations of Scripture regarding Baptism are possible, more than one seems biblically valid or "normed." Sometimes, Sola Scrptura takes you only so far. IMO, it makes the DOMGAS of the Assumption of Mary and Papal Infallibility and Unam Sanctum and the institutionalization of Christ and His church unnormed - but clearly Catholics will disagree with me on that. But, IMO, I can look at a couple of views regarding Baptism and conclude that they both make a case that can be normed by Scripture. This is where Tradition comes to bear in two ways: First of all, I reject private interpretation (one reason I'm a Protestant and not a Catholic) - I think the Bible is in the hands of thew WHOLE (catholic) church, not individual persons, congregations and denominations (including the Catholic one(s) and my denomination). So, I look for a public or ecumenical view. Secondly, being a believer in Providence, when there is a solid, broad, nearly universal (ecumenical) consensus that embraces multiple faith communities and denomination - that speaks to me. Now, Sola Scriptura means all that doesn't "trump" the Bible or can be used equal to it - I use Tradition in HERMENEUTICS (interpretation), not norming.

It's not SOLO Scriptura (which would ignore all that powerful Tradition), but nor is it Sola Eccelsia where a teacher simply approves his own teaching according to the norm of his own teaching/Tradition/history, etc. I place the interpretation of Scripture UNDER Scripture, not OVER it. It's called "Sola Scriptura."

Sorry for the interruption...

Back to the fight...

Josiah

.

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

ETide said:
It comes through the power and simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ.. for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.

Obviously, an infant has no clue of this..

They have the Holy Spirit, an eternal flame, within them.

God Bless

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
They have the Holy Spirit, an eternal flame, within them.

God Bless

You're saying that infants are born with the Holy Spirit within them..? Is that what you're saying here..?

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

FreeinChrist said:
Perhaps it was the leading of the Holy Spirit that enabled him to believe later, and not being dipped in water.

Certainly it was the Spirit.

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

ETide said:
You're saying that infants are born with the Holy Spirit within them..? Is that what you're saying here..?

They receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when they are baptized into Christ.

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

FreeinChrist said:
It (our belief about baptism) is a teaching left to us by the Triune God as it is in scripture.

What teaching is that? I know nothing of what you practice.

God Bless

ETide · Jul 18, 2006

Asinner said:
They receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when they are baptized into Christ.

Again I'll simply say that I disagree with this completely, and I believe that it's one of the most, if not the most, destructive teachings in Christendom today.. teaching people that they're born again in this way.

It implies that God is obliged to seal every infant that is baptized regardless of their understanding or hearing the gospel.

As mentioned, scripture affirms clearly that God adds members to His body as it pleases Himself.. He is building His church..and when He does it, there's assurance in it..

No wonder so many believe that they can lose their salvation..

racer · Jul 18, 2006

Trento said:
The application of Tradition to scripture by Augustine is reveald here by Protestant Historians
and seeing that the Protestant historians who are familiar with the Fathers; who specialize in patristics and Church history and history of theology or of doctrinal development of same, completely contradict you i will remain an amateur historian and not be guilty of "fundamental logical errors in evaluating the views of these church fathers."

Trento,

None of what you say (or the protestant scholars) refutes or negates the fact Augustine considered Scripture the supreme and ultimate authority.

Asinner · Jul 18, 2006

ETide said:
This is largely the subject of this thread, and yet Tradition is supposed to be in agreement with scripture.. as many here claim that they're inseparable..

Yet scripture doesn't support many of the things which you're speaking about.. ie, it's not water that seals us, it's God who seals us with the holy Spirit.

You say that Noah was saved by water, but it's clear enough that he was saved through the water because of the Ark which he built by FAITH.. and scripture affirms this very thing.. we're saved by grace through faith.. faith goes all the way back to the beginning.. even to Abel.. it's embracing the promises of God.

As for the people you're referring to as the church of God.. that's simply speculation.. for the church is not the RCC, or the EC, as so many believe, it's the body of Christ that God has sealed with His Spirit.. the members which He has added to it.. it's really silly to imply that it's only your church, isn't it Asinner..? I can't imagine how people believe that.. although 50 pages of this thread testify to that very thing..

May God richly bless you.

Equal authority of Tradition to Scripture

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