Episcopal membership question

[Deegie]

The last couple of posts sound very much like what the people working on prayer book revision were saying!

I did want to respond to the idea of taking confirmands to visit other churches and houses of worship. I actually support that. After all, how can someone make a mature decision to be confirmed as an Anglican Christian if they don't know what other options are out there?

The problem of teenagers getting confirmed and then never showing up again is well-known and church-wide. It's led to all sorts of new curricula and models for confirmation. I ran an awesome program last time (if I do say so myself) that the kids really loved. But nothing changed. I just like to think of it as planting a seed. Not my job to make it grow!

 

[FireDragon76]

The last couple of posts sound very much like what the people working on prayer book revision were saying!

I did want to respond to the idea of taking confirmands to visit other churches and houses of worship. I actually support that. After all, how can someone make a mature decision to be confirmed as an Anglican Christian if they don't know what other options are out there?

We shouldn't expect young teenagers to make a decision like that, as they simply don't have the cognitive abilities to do so. When I was confirmed, I was pressured to do so, it's not like I was choosing to do it freely. So I'm not sure what meaning would be implied in taking a young teen to the houses of worship of other religions, other than a gesture towards pluralism, which is how my mother described her experience as well. It tends to dilute the significance of the religion. If a church is seen as just one choice among many, then they are all merely preferences.

I don't have a view of the Christian life as one necessarily involving a decision to believe, but that's a Lutheran distinctive.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't know that I agree that young teenagers don't have the cognitive ability to make a Christian commitment. I'm aware that in my own life, I (personally and privately) made such a commitment as a young teen which hasn't ever wavered since. (Sure, it's deepened and taken on more maturity, but the basic bedrock commitment has been solid). I know lots of other people who similarly made decisive life commitments as young teens.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't know that I agree that young teenagers don't have the cognitive ability to make a Christian commitment. I'm aware that in my own life, I (personally and privately) made such a commitment as a young teen which hasn't ever wavered since. (Sure, it's deepened and taken on more maturity, but the basic bedrock commitment has been solid). I know lots of other people who similarly made decisive life commitments as young teens.

We don't allow teenagers to drive or to choose to consume alcohol, I doubt it is responsible to allow them to judge life's deepest questions.

 

[Paidiske]

Hey, I shared my experience with you. It's probably not true for everyone, but for enough people that I wouldn't want to deny that it's possible for many.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I will offer one view from the pew. I was baptized and confirmed in the Methodist Episcopal Church (pre-merger) as an adolescent. It was a meaningful and pivotal decision in my life. I knew what I was doing, and I continue to try my best to honor those vows I took decades ago. To say youth do not have that capacity diminishes them.

When I decided to move away from Methodism as a middle-aged adult, I studied and considered Orthodoxy. Their insistence that I become re-baptized was one of two stoppers for me. Re-baptism felt like a renunciation of something very meaningful in my life and a discounting of my Christian formation to that point.

Then I wandered into an Episcopal Church. TEC did not require me to be re-baptized but I could not be received, only confirmed. I did not mind going through confirmation again. I quite liked the preparation as a way to learn the tradition, belief, praxis, and polity of TEC. Rightly or wrongly, I view baptism and entrance into the Christian faith and confirmation as entrance into a branch of the faith and a particular body of believers.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

The theology and praxis of confirmation is, to put it kindly, a little fuzzy for Anglicans. I do not believe we would insist on confirmation instead of episcopal reception in practice in my diocese, whether or not someone had been confirmed in another tradition (or whether or not we considered their bishops to have valid apostolic succession).

Is it really? Caveat: haven’t rtft.

I always thought that Confirmation was biblical.

It was the expectation that the bishops/overseers/episcopos would perform baptisms. But when the church grew, they would not be able to get to all the fellowships. That meant that the presbyters would baptise within their own fellowships on a regular basis. When the overseers got to them a few years later, they would confirm their baptisms.

We do much the same, with annual episcopal visits, for those making the baptism promises for themselves (eg 14+ in our fellowship).

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I didn't know that about the discussions preceding the 1979 BCP. Was the idea to remove confirmation from the church altogether, or just to remove it as a rite for a Christian who's changing denominations?

For infants who grow up in the church and who are baptized in infancy, I can see the value of the person committing themselves to Christ and saying the Baptismal Vows in their own voice, and confirmation is a place to do that. Although -- in practice, in my parish, it often seems to be just a routine thing that you do when you're 12, because it's what people do, instead of because you're making a conscious, adult commitment to Christ. A "happy 12th birthday" ceremony may not be all that valuable. I wonder if confirmation should be moved later, maybe to 21 or so, a time when you've had all those arguments with your philosophy professor and you've lived away from your parents a bit and had a best friend who was a Hindu -- and after reflecting on all that, you still want to be Christian. That kind of adult decision seems worthy of a ceremony.

Our not-very-rigid Policy is 14+, and Confirmation is separate from our youth groups, to ensure it as a personal choice.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Two pieces to this. First off, bishops are required by canons to visit every parish at least once between general conventions. So even without confirmations, they would still visit. Second, a lot of larger diocese do group confirmations, so the confirmands go to the cathedral. It's how i was confirmed in the Diocese of Newark.

We have Deanery confirmation twice a year, with either the diocesan or suffragan bishop presiding. My fellowship probably gets them once a year because we have a baptism tank. The other services move around the Deanery.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

And why do we keep it around?

In my fellowship, Confirmation is an absolute joy. I remember one of my son’s Confirmations - a totally miserable night in November. The church was packed with supporters (350 +/-). We had nine bells. It was a totally joyous occasion.

It’s one of the things that our church family does is to turn out for Confirmations, whether within a normal service, or in the week. It’s gobsmacking, tbh. It makes me proud to be a Christian.

 

[Deegie]

Our not-very-rigid Policy is 14+, and Confirmation is separate from our youth groups, to ensure it as a personal choice.

We do the same here. In fact, to address FireDragon76's concern upthread, we stress to both the parents and confirmands throughout the long program that it is the youth's choice and that participating in the class does not presuppose confirmation will be the result. This last time, I had one decide at the end that he wasn't sure he wanted to be confirmed. We complimented his honesty and allowed him to drive the ship from there: he told us what his concerns were and made a plan for gathering additional information in order to decide. In the end, he waited until nearly the last minute and then decided to do it. I'm afraid we might be underestimating our youth when we presume they cannot make such a decision for themselves. Sometimes, it's just about creating the proper environment to make it possible.

 

[Paidiske]

Is it really? Caveat: haven’t rtft.

I always thought that Confirmation was biblical.

It was the expectation that the bishops/overseers/episcopos would perform baptisms. But when the church grew, they would not be able to get to all the fellowships. That meant that the presbyters would baptise within their own fellowships on a regular basis. When the overseers got to them a few years later, they would confirm their baptisms.

We do much the same, with annual episcopal visits, for those making the baptism promises for themselves (eg 14+ in our fellowship).

I'd say that's a traditional development built on a very slight Biblical foundation. In NT times the office of bishop was not yet even clearly delineated from that of presbyter.

 

[hedrick]

I would argue that many teenagers are capable of making a real faith decision, but that two issues make it look more dubious than it actually is:

1) While many kids may actually have faith, there are pressures on others to make the affirmation. That doesn't, however, devalue the commitment made by the kids who are serious about it.

2) Things change a lot between 15 and 25. Kids who are part of the church family as teenagers may fall away later. This doesn't mean that their faith at 15 wasn't real.

 

[FireDragon76]

I would argue that many teenagers are capable of making a real faith decision, but that two issues make it look more dubious than it actually is:

1) While many kids may actually have faith, there are pressures on others to make the affirmation. That doesn't, however, devalue the commitment made by the kids who are serious about it.

2) Things change a lot between 15 and 25. Kids who are part of the church family as teenagers may fall away later. This doesn't mean that their faith at 15 wasn't real.

I agree.

My point was a concern that sometimes there's assumptions of a voluntarist notion of faith, which I think isn't compatible with Christianity. Christianity is a covenantal and communal religion.