Episcopal and Anglican, are protestant?

[Albion]

There are definitely differences in that category among protestant denominations.

Certainly. They vary among themselves. However, there is none that operates in the same way as the first Christian churches did, with respect to the points you yourself raised, such as garb and officers.

 

[Athanasius377]

With respect you never do give facts Albion: you give a sanitized anglican whitewash.

And since I have lived both sides of the fence I am not adhering to a "storyline" that I was "brought up with", since that was the anglican!

The anglican position is inconsistent and incoherent. Take on the eucharist: it cannot be both pneumatic and corporeal, and depending on where you go to in low chuch anglican even near "symbolic" will do as a eucharistic doctrine seemingly which is certainly protestant. In the real world there is but one truth. You do not get to chose what it is by choosing high or low church.

Also the anglican view on the succession is incoherent. Which is why the doctrine is also variable depending on who you speak to. It cut itself away from the root so parts of it drift.

I accept that for anglican to claim succession, it must defend the continuation in succession of those who repudiated their allegiance to those who ordained them. But it is ridiculous logic. And it can never excuse that those same people who took Henry 8 demonic oath then persecuted and murdered catholic priests who clearly did have valid succession. How does that work: at very least a church which claims succession, must respect others who have the same claim.

They clearly didnt as the brutal murders of catholic priests in the english martyrs show. Anglicans need to consider whether their historic actions speak louder than their subsequent words. It was a black period and For sure many within catholic church have committed their own outrages for which they are also culpable.
But the test of anglican "succession" fails in the failure to respect the same succession of others. In denying the succession of others during the reign of henry 8 they are denying their own succession by demonstrating their indifference to the meaning of it

Then is the question of the articles - how many are there? - history shows the man made tradition of the anglican church has varied over time. Articles Variable in number and content, drifting from near calvinist (so clearly protestant) to near catholic depending on the whims of the monarch. I repeat , there can only be one truth.

It is not a good foundation. And that lack of foundation is what sent many of us back to Rome looking for consistency.

I have much respect for my anglican brethren.
There are many holy folk amongst them, I do not prosyletize, or judge them, In the end its not me they must convince:

I just defend catholicism where it is attacked.

But consistency on doctrine is not an anglican strong suit, and the claims to succession are at very best tenuous : and not a good platform from which to preach holier than thou!, or to claim that "others" do not "understand". Understanding the anglican position on many issues relies on cognitive dissonance.

I agree with a lot of what you said here and I believe you are correct. Modern Anglicanism hasn't any internal consistency. Anglicanism according to its classical formulation is without a doubt Protestant. Reformed theology had a large influence on the formation of the Church of England. The 39 articles of religion (1571), the two books of Homilies, the classic Book of Common Prayer (1662), the writings of the early Anglican divines such as Cranmer, Lattimer, Ridley are all a testimony to this fact. They all deny Roman Catholic distinctive like the sacrifice of the Mass, transubstantiation and the corporal presence of Christ in the elements of communion, supererogation, purgatory and the like. What became the Anglo-catholic movement dates from the mid-19th century and is a straight up revision of history. The modern Anglican claim that his/her church is neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant is a result of this historical mashup. To be clear, my criticism is with the Anglican church and not Anglicans themselves.

Speaking of mashup:

 

[charsan]

i am taught that god dislikes images, for me jesus is alive and glorified, not nailed on a cross anymore.

You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. (Ex. 20:4-6)

You would have to explain than why God commanded Cerub to be placed on the ark and a snake to be crafted and the children of Israel gaze upon it. Actually iconoclasm was condemned as heresy at a Church council

 

[His student]

Episcopal and Anglican, are protestant?...want to know

In that they, like say - Baptists, Pentecostals and Reformed - are "protesting things found in Roman Catholicism ----- the answer is yes they are protestants.

But, whereas those other groups are protesting a great many things particularly related to the mechanics of our justification before God, Episcopal and Anglican protestation seems to have mostly to do with the authority of the Pope and other church leadership/authority issues.

 

[The Barbarian]

The Catholic Church also refuses to call "non-Catholic" denominations by the word church!

Obviously, Eastern Orthodox denominations are considered by Roman Catholics to be churches, in the full Biblical sense, since they also have continued apostolic succession.

 

[Pedra]

You would have to explain than why God commanded Cerub to be placed on the ark and a snake to be crafted and the children of Israel gaze upon it. Actually iconoclasm was condemned as heresy at a Church council

So some decide that that means they can ignore the commandments of God then?

 

[prodromos]

i am taught that god dislikes images, for me jesus is alive and glorified, not nailed on a cross anymore.

Yet in the Gospels, we still read of Christ being crucified. What is the difference between reading of it in the text of the Gospels and reading of it on the walls or Windows of the church? You speak as though we should remove those parts from the Gospels.
In most Orthodox churches, the main events of Christ's incarnation, ministry, death, resurrection and glorious ascension are depicted in art on the walls of the church. It is often referred to as the Gospel for the illiterate. I think in this day and age we take literacy for granted.

 

[Pedra]

I agree with a lot of what you said here and I believe you are correct. Modern Anglicanism hasn't any internal consistency. Anglicanism according to its classical formulation is without a doubt Protestant. Reformed theology had a large influence on the formation of the Church of England. The 39 articles of religion (1571), the two books of Homilies, the classic Book of Common Prayer (1662), the writings of the early Anglican divines such as Cranmer, Lattimer, Ridley are all a testimony to this fact. They all deny Roman Catholic distinctive like the sacrifice of the Mass, transubstantiation and the corporal presence of Christ in the elements of communion, supererogation, purgatory and the like. What became the Anglo-catholic movement dates from the mid-19th century and is a straight up revision of history. The modern Anglican claim that his/her church is neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant is a result of this historical mashup. To be clear, my criticism is with the Anglican church and not Anglicans themselves.

Speaking of mashup:

Former lead guitarist of Metallica Dave Mustaine became a born again Christian and renounced the music as black metal & satanic.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Episcopal and Anglican, are protestant?

Yes.

 

[The Barbarian]

Yet in the Gospels, we still read of Christ being crucified. What is the difference between reading of it in the text of the Gospels and reading of it on the walls or Windows of the church? You speak as though we should remove those parts from the Gospels.
In most Orthodox churches, the main events of Christ's incarnation, ministry, death, resurrection and glorious ascension are depicted in art on the walls of the church. It is often referred to as the Gospel for the illiterate. I think in this day and age we take literacy for granted.

Great point. In the ages when literacy was not widespread, stained glass, paintings, statues and mosaics were the way that most people learned about the faith.

 

[Snoder]

We don't "dress as" priests. We are priests.

Not as far as orthodox Christianity is concerned. By all means, in your religious affiliation you are a priest.

The litmus test of orthodoxy on CF is adherence to the Nicene Creed, which Anglicans certainly do.

The Nicene Creed is the basis on a website for the definition of a Christian.

 

[Snoder]

Yes, but that's the Catholic Church. It can scorn the clergy of any other church if it chooses, and that's an "in house" position. It doesn't have anything to do with the validity or invalidity of those other churches and their lines of Apostolic Succession, if any.

The Catholic Church isn't out to 'scorn' anyone. Its role is to teach the truth. Since the protestant reformation, protestant Christianity is about personal truth, not collective or historical truth.

The Catholic Church also refuses to call "non-Catholic" denominations by the word church!

That's not true. That Catholic Church believes that those with apostolic succession are Churches.

The topic here is not about what the Catholic Church wants to think of other Christian churches, however. No more than the fact the Jehovah's Witnesses consider both the Catholic Church and the Anglican churches to be Satanic. So what?

The topic was about Anglicans being protestant. The Anglican church began because Henry wanted an annulment after already getting special permission to marry his brothers wife. I don't need to go into the story because I am sure you already know it.

Henry made himself the head of his church. His illegitimate daughter Elizabeth came to power and made a big compromise on all the religious factions. Now they ordain women. They have openly homosexual bishops. They offer 'communion' to anyone.

So yes, they are 'affirming' protestants.

 

[The Barbarian]

The Nicene Creed is the basis on a website for the definition of a Christian.

"The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth."
From:
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

 

[Athanasius377]

Former lead guitarist of Metallica Dave Mustaine became a born again Christian and renounced the music as black metal & satanic.

Um, not exactly. He became a born again Christian and refuses to play certain songs like “The Conjuring” for obvious reasons but he still plays a goodly amount of his previous work. In fact he along with Megadeth were playing shows with Metallica long after his conversion.

The point of the video was to show what a mashup is. The music was incidental.

 

[Albion]

That's not true. That Catholic Church believes that those with apostolic succession are Churches.

What I said...is that the Catholic Church (and the Pope himself, plus some of the members here) have a policy of not CALLING Protestant churches by the word church. They are often referred to instead by the ridiculous term "ecclesial communities." You informed us that there is no element of scorn involved with doing this, it should also be noted.

 

[The Barbarian]

For Roman Catholics and many other Christians, "church" has a very specific meaning, dating from the time of the apostles. It's that simple. Not every denomination follows apostolic succession. That's all there is to it.

Lumen Gentium is the teaching of the Church, and fully recognizes those "ecclesial communities" as being composed of genuine Christians. And that's really all that should matter.

 

[Pedra]

Um, not exactly. He became a born again Christian and refuses to play certain songs like “The Conjuring” for obvious reasons but he still plays a goodly amount of his previous work. In fact he along with Megadeth were playing shows with Metallica long after his conversion.

The point of the video was to show what a mashup is. The music was incidental.

You can say , not exactly all you want, he later denounced both.
I don't care for satanic music , and certainly wouldn't post it on a Christian forum and also don't think it is on topic.

 

[Athanasius377]

You can say , not exactly all you want, he later denounced both.
I don't care for satanic music , and certainly wouldn't post it on a Christian forum.

You have no idea of what you are talking about on either case.

 

[Pedra]

You have no idea of what you are talking about on either case.

Sorry--I disagree.

 

[Paidiske]

Lumen Gentium is the teaching of the Church, and fully recognizes those "ecclesial communities" as being composed of genuine Christians. And that's really all that should matter.

I don't think it's all that should matter, or all that does matter.

As long as some denominations are in the habit of recognising other "genuine Christians" as deficient, inferior, or the like, we have a problem.

I'm certainly frustrated with this thread, which was started to ask if we are Protestant, but seems to have deteriorated with every other group feeling this is the place to attack Anglicans/Anglicanism from every possible direction.