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Episcopal and Anglican, are protestant?

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The Barbarian

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I don't think it's all that should matter, or all that does matter.

As long as some denominations are in the habit of recognising other "genuine Christians" as deficient, inferior, or the like, we have a problem.

I'm certainly frustrated with this thread, which was started to ask if we are Protestant, but seems to have deteriorated with every other group feeling this is the place to attack Anglicans/Anglicanism from every possible direction.

I don't feel any need to attack Anglicans. My wife happens to be Episcopalian, and we talked at long length about it before marriage. We discovered that in every way that matters to our married life, we were on the same page. I didn't expect her to change for me, and she didn't expect me to change. Her parents were not very cooperative, and I gave in on many things, including having to marry away from my friends to fit their demands concerning in which building we would be married. At that point, she said, "you've given in on everything; I will raise our children as Catholics." I never asked that of her, and I was not happy that the diocese asked her to sign a statement affirming it.

We were married in an Episcopal church building with Episcopal and Roman Catholic priests marrying us. About three months before the wedding, we just agreed, "let's do whatever we have to do to get this done."

And so we did. I don't see her faith as deficient to mine in any sense. I think her church is wrong about some things, as she certainly thinks mine is. We've never had angry words over it. Not once.

Edit: In November, it will be 50 years of marriage. It's been everything I hoped marriage would be.
 
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lambofgod43985889

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Yet in the Gospels, we still read of Christ being crucified. What is the difference between reading of it in the text of the Gospels and reading of it on the walls or Windows of the church? You speak as though we should remove those parts from the Gospels.
In most Orthodox churches, the main events of Christ's incarnation, ministry, death, resurrection and glorious ascension are depicted in art on the walls of the church. It is often referred to as the Gospel for the illiterate. I think in this day and age we take literacy for granted.
what about god dislike images?
 
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lambofgod43985889

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You would have to explain than why God commanded Cerub to be placed on the ark and a snake to be crafted and the children of Israel gaze upon it. Actually iconoclasm was condemned as heresy at a Church council
if god commands it, it's right
if human creates it, it's not right
 
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charsan

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if god commands it, it's right
if human creates it, it's not right

God never said not to create, that you added. There is absolutely nothing wrong with icons, pictures, an statues
 
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prodromos

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Pedra

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I don't think it's all that should matter, or all that does matter.

As long as some denominations are in the habit of recognising other "genuine Christians" as deficient, inferior, or the like, we have a problem.

I'm certainly frustrated with this thread, which was started to ask if we are Protestant, but seems to have deteriorated with every other group feeling this is the place to attack Anglicans/Anglicanism from every possible direction.
But there is a problem , and the bible clearly warned about false teachers, false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing, heresies, apostasy, those following doctrines of demons, and the falling away. We are also told to contend for the faith, not just go along to get along or pretend just anything goes as long as a person claims to love Jesus.
 
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Paidiske

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But there is a problem , and the bible clearly warned about false teachers, false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing, heresies, apostasy, those following doctrines of demons, and the falling away.

Sure, but I don't see the need to identify any of those things wholesale with any of our currently existing orthodox denominations.

We are also told to contend for the faith, not just go along to get along or pretend just anything goes as long as a person claims to love Jesus.

Also agreed. And there might be particular issues to debate between our different denominations. It just seems like such a stark jump from disagreeing about particular things - like baptism or church governance - to wholesale rejection of our brothers and sisters.
 
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Snoder

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What I said...is that the Catholic Church (and the Pope himself, plus some of the members here) have a policy of not CALLING Protestant churches by the word church.


What the Church believes is maintained by the bishops and held in the hearts of the faithful. There are differences in definitions between Catholics and protestants. For protestants, the Church is invisible and consists of all Christians. For Catholics the Church is visible but all Christians are part of it to a degree. The word "Church" is reserved for those with apostolic succession who ordain bishops who ordain priests and deacons who offer the Eucharist.
That is the fundamental core of Catholicism.
When Catholics meet to pray and give food to the homeless, that's not Church. That's a ministry. If Catholics ever met and did a non-denominational like service, which they can, that's not 'Church'. Catholics get together all the time, it's not Church unless it involves the Eucharist.

I suppose that Catholic laity could meet on Mondays and offer a service in the style of any denomination and even offer wine and bread. It would only be an issue if it created confusion. That's not Church. So when protestants do the same thing, it's not belittling the community, or the grace that individuals receive.

and They are often referred to instead by the ridiculous term "ecclesial communities." You informed us that there is no element of scorn involved with doing this, it should also be noted.

That is an appropriate term. To put this in our terms, imagine a coworker who announced they are a new gender identity and insists you use their own new pronouns. Imagine they change every few months as they 'discover' themselves. Imagine they ask you to describe people as "cis-gender" and "trans-gender."
I am not trying to pick on that particular community, but show an extreme within a community where you are being asked to change your language and definitions to be polite to others while they completely disregard your language and definitions.

If we don't use your definitions it is not meant to be mean to anyone. We have a right to what we believe and how we speak about things. The words ill and sick mean essentially the same thing, but they come from two different sources. For someone to insist on using only one is the actually bully.
 
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Snoder

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For Roman Catholics and many other Christians, "church" has a very specific meaning, dating from the time of the apostles. It's that simple. Not every denomination follows apostolic succession. That's all there is to it.

Lumen Gentium is the teaching of the Church, and fully recognizes those "ecclesial communities" as being composed of genuine Christians. And that's really all that should matter.

They are 'Christians' who are partially in communion with the Church based on what they share in common with her.
 
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Mountainmike

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Coming back to the core issue, I think the answer is entirely subjective use of the word "protestant" so nobody will agree.

It is a fact that Henry 8 ( but under the pen of Thomas More) produces scathing rebuttals of those normally associated with protestantism, that is Luther, Zwingli and others, defending catholic dogmas to the hilt. For those interested in history some of Thomas Mores phraseology in those dialogues might amuse...I recollect that despite his normal scholarly approach, he managed to use the word "sh!t" a record number of times in one sentence when taking aim at Luther! And the pope of the time praised Henry (or Thomas Mores) efforts in defending the faith against the new reformationists.

In essence the main thing Henry was determined on losing was the catholic churches view on adultery to change wife in order to get hope of an heir, so in order to do that he had to lose the the authority of the pope over matters ecclesial and spiritual and so demanded all took an oath to declare himself supreme in Britain! In that way he was able to replace the catholic churches view on adultery with his own: in most other regards he kept to catholic doctrines and thinking.

But what actually changed? It is also a fact that the first set of 10 articles (which have changed in history) include the practice of "praying to saints" and do not even oppose purgatory saying only it is "biblically uncertain" whilst reinforcing prayers for the dead.

If you regard protestantism as the destination beliefs of many reformationists (eg double predestination, symbolic only eucharist, believers baptism, the lack of priesthood or succession priesthood, then Anglican is certainly not protestant.

But then It is also a fact that even Luthers beliefs (who first attracted the word protestant I believe) were far more "catholic" than many of those who came later using his name: many protestants would be horrified at (for example) his views on Mary! So was Luther protestant in todays terms as regards views.

If you regard protestantism as objecting to the authority of the catholic church over dogma and doctrine, which is the core of much protestantism, then yes CofE became protestant, protesting the authority of the pope. But that was pretty much all that changed to start with...

For some of us the essence of the drift in doctrine of protestantism is entirely because it ditches "authority" both of the magisterium and pope so that all may replace meanings of scripture with their own opinion. Even Luther despaired of that in his lifetime.

The reasoning he used to reinterpret scripture, and disavowing authority became equally valid for all others to do the same. And they did. "now every milkmaid has their own doctrine" he lamented...

The fascinating question to me, is whether had Divine providence granted henry an heir by his first wife, would England have remained catholic and still respect the pope? I think it would, and centuries of strife would have been avoided in England.
So by refusing to accept divine providence on children, Henry scuppered the church.

For me I can only repeat, I have every respect for Anglicans ,- I was one- but I have total contempt for Henry.

I find some Anglican thinking muddled born of the fact that without magisterium or pope, there is no authority within Anglicanisms to settle theological disputes :which become factional and result in recent schisms, to the point the catholic church has said in recent times that it is hard to engage in ecumenical discussions because anglican synod does not represent a single viewpoint on even some fundamental issues.

As to whether it is protestant, it is a subjective question. What do people mean by protestant? The beliefs (Anglican beliefs, are largely catholic, not those of most of the later groups calling themselves protestant ) or the refusal to acknowledge of catholic authority as pope and magisterium (they dont, so by that definition are protestant)



I don't think it's all that should matter, or all that does matter.

As long as some denominations are in the habit of recognising other "genuine Christians" as deficient, inferior, or the like, we have a problem.

I'm certainly frustrated with this thread, which was started to ask if we are Protestant, but seems to have deteriorated with every other group feeling this is the place to attack Anglicans/Anglicanism from every possible direction.
 
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The Barbarian

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They are 'Christians' who are partially in communion with the Church based on what they share in common with her.

Pope Paul VI didn't put quote marks around it when he set forth Roman Catholic doctrine:

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.

They are not "kinda, sorta" Christians. They are Christians. In error on various things, but no less Christian than apostolic Christians. Yes partially in communion with the Church, but as Pope Paul VI noted, the Holy Spirit is active among them, as He is among us. And God is not mistaken.


I never knew much about Episcopalians until I married one of them. But I note that Episcopalian priests I have heard from, acknowledge their denomination to be "in the protestant tradition", to quote one of them. Are there those who do not?
 
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The Barbarian

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But then It is also a fact that even Luthers beliefs (who first attracted the word protestant I believe) were far more "catholic" than many of those who came later using his name: many protestants would be horrified at (for example) his views on Mary!

Yes. Any Catholic would be pleased to know how Luther was devoted to Mary. His views on Mary as meidatrix changed over time, as he became more and more inclined to "sola scriptura." But he never lost his faith regarding her perpetual virginity or her place as Theotokos.
 
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Albion

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What the Church believes is maintained by the bishops and held in the hearts of the faithful. There are differences in definitions between Catholics and protestants. For protestants, the Church is invisible and consists of all Christians.
For Protestants, the church is both visible and invisible, depending upon which aspect of it we are speaking of--the congregations where corporate worship occurs and the sacraments are administered...or what is called the "invisible church," a reference to the unity of all true believers which transcends place and time.
 
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Albion

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What do people mean by protestant? The beliefs (Anglican beliefs, are largely catholic, not those of most of the later groups calling themselves protestant ) or the refusal to acknowledge of catholic authority as pope and magisterium (they dont, so by that definition are protestant)
That definition would refer to being ROMAN Catholic, i.e. Catholic as a category of Christian churches parallel to Protestant.

For example, Orthodox Eastern Christians and Old Catholics are classed as "Catholic" in addition to the Roman Catholic Church, and this is on account of fundamental characteristics that they share. A Pope obviously is not one of them.
 
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Paidiske

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I never knew much about Episcopalians until I married one of them. But I note that Episcopalian priests I have heard from, acknowledge their denomination to be "in the protestant tradition", to quote one of them. Are there those who do not?

You would find that a matter of heated debate amongst us.

That definition would refer to being ROMAN Catholic, i.e. Catholic as a category of Christian churches parallel to Protestant.

For example, Orthodox Eastern Christians and Old Catholics are classed as "Catholic" in addition to the Roman Catholic Church, and this is on account of fundamental characteristics that they share. A Pope obviously is not one of them.

And then when we note that the Old Catholics - the Union of Utrecht - are in full communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury, can we really say that Anglicans are less catholic than Old Catholics?
 
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Mountainmike

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You would find that a matter of heated debate amongst us.



And then when we note that the Old Catholics - the Union of Utrecht - are in full communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury, can we really say that Anglicans are less catholic than Old Catholics?

The " old" in old Catholics is a bit of a misleading phrase: it implies long history but they originate as a schism from mid 19th century surely, as reaction to first vat? So way postdate the formal Anglican Church.
 
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Snoder

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Pope Paul VI didn't put quote marks around it when he set forth Roman Catholic doctrine:

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.

They are not "kinda, sorta" Christians. They are Christians. In error on various things, but no less Christian than apostolic Christians. Yes partially in communion with the Church, but as Pope Paul VI noted, the Holy Spirit is active among them, as He is among us. And God is not mistaken.

The quote starts out with those that are baptized, which many communities don't care about: "who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety" When I wrote 'Christians' I was referring to the fact that they are only such as they relate to the Church, as I wrote "who are partially in communion with the Church based on what they share in common with her."

There is no Christianity outside of the Catholic Church in that what exists in those communities is only Christian as it relates to the Church. They don't have their own co-existent contradicting truths.
Protestants were originally quite defined in what is truth. They had principles and very defined theologies that slowly devolved in endless comprise. For that reason, I understand that discussion between Catholics and protestants is seen as hurtful because Catholics haven't accepted the protestant notion of endless compromise and that led to personal truth. Protestants have agreed to disagree. For most, whatever they believe is based on what the Holy Spirit personally told them. Everyone has their own truth. For Catholics, there is objective truth that is not hidden.
God is not the author of confusion. Truth is not parcelled out.

We are seen as offensive, perhaps even as arrogant for not accepting their mentality.

I accept that Christ created a Church based on objective truth that was available to everyone. This Church produced the bible, which is objective truth. The Church maintains objective truth. It has imperfect people that led others to believe you could find a more perfect truth outside the Church. For the last five centuries, this movement has given up any and all hope of understanding any universal truth.

I never knew much about Episcopalians until I married one of them. But I note that Episcopalian priests I have heard from, acknowledge their denomination to be "in the protestant tradition", to quote one of them. Are there those who do not?

Loads of Anglicans claim they are both "Catholic" and "Protestant."
 
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Knee V

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Please elaborate on what you see as our "unique Protestant theology." I don't know what that is.
I didn't see the notifications for this thread, and it seems I don't have much more to add than what has already been said by others.

What I meant by "unique Protestant doctrines" was doctrines that are unique to the Protestant Reformation and its heirs which are not shared by other churches, such as Catholic, Orthodox, etc.

Again, many others here seem to have elaborated for me, and I see no need to rehash what has already been rehashed.
 
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seeking.IAM

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...What I meant by "unique Protestant doctrines" was doctrines that are unique to the Protestant Reformation and its heirs which are not shared by other churches, such as Catholic, Orthodox, etc. Again, many others here seem to have elaborated for me, and I see no need to rehash what has already been rehashed.

Actually, what you said is "unique Protestant theology," not "unique Protestant doctrines." I think there is a difference. I submit that our theology summary may be found in the Nicene Creed, which is hardly unique to Anglicans.
 
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