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Epicurean Question

mark kennedy

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Hi Mark, St. Athanasius is an interesting place to start. How did Saint Athanasius know that without the universe springing from a mind that nothing would be distinct ? I don't think he did no that considering you would need several universes to examine to come to that conclusion.

That's absurd, Even Epicurus knew better then longing to substantiate a single explanation by deferring to the unexplainable. Multiverse comparisons are impossible, even if there is such a thing:

But one must not be so much in love with the explanation by a single way as wrongly to reject all the others from ignorance of what can, and what cannot, be within human knowledge, and consequent longing to discover the indiscoverable. (Epicurus)​

Definition of evil, our certainly differ, does a child willfully get drowned by a tsunami ? No obviously but it is still evil that this happens. My definition of evil is needless and preventable human suffering that is allowed to continue. And if God exists in the Christian sense then he has the sceptre and the crown. Not one person can hold blame besides him.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” (Rom. 9:14-15)
You haven't defined evil, you have equivocated moral evil with natural disaster.

Essentially, evil is a lack of goodness. Moral evil is not a physical thing; it is a lack or privation of a good thing. As Christian philosopher J. P. Moreland has noted, “Evil is a lack of goodness. It is goodness spoiled. You can have good without evil, but you cannot have evil without good.” Or as Christian apologist Greg Koukl has said, “Human freedom was used in such a way as to diminish goodness in the world, and that diminution, that lack of goodness, that is what we call evil.” (What is the definition of evil?)
Light has physical properties, darkness is simply the absence of light. Evil is the void, the emptiness of the world without God. Tragedy and grief confront us, not because God's divine attributes and eternal nature is lacking but because we lack God in this world due to sin.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. (Rom. 8:20-22)
God could remove natural disaster, disease and want, the reason he doesn't is that it won't solve the moral evil of the human will. God will remove evil from the world but only after deconstructing creation through the Trumpets and Vials of Wrath, evil does not go quietly. Even after a thousand years of peace and security, no want, no disease or disaster this is how evil inspires unredeemed humanity:

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:8-10)
You want God to vanquish evil because he can, you grossly underestimate the tenacity of evil. It permeates our world and the true evil is willful rebellion against God. It wraps itself around the ego and makes it conceited, telling us we are gods. If you want to talk about evil then consider the source of evil, instead of these shallow rationalizations.
 
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Ethan Sutton

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The imperfection is not a permanent state, But a temporary state of being on earth.. It performs a necessary purpose for God to achieve his eternal goal in the best way.. So yes this world is very imperfect and so are we who dwell in this world.. But being imperfect does not mean we do not have the ability to know we are imperfect and to know there is perfection..

The perfecting of us humans comes on the day of the resurrection and judgement.. Then we shall be perfect . Then we shall be eternal. Then we shall exist in Gods perfect eternal existence. :D

I don't think that answered any of my objections.

Thank you for your time though <3
 
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I don't think that answered any of my objections.

Thank you for your time though <3

You can choose to accept and reject what you will to accept and reject.. Thats one of the basics of this current existence.. :) We all have free will .. Part of Gods eternal plan you see.
 
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Ethan Sutton

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Mark

1, if you have nothing to compare something to how can you demonstrate contrast and define it in a meaningful way ?
2, That is my definition of evil. Pretending you know something I don't know about evil is not productive.
3, just because someone doesn't assume that book that was written 2000 years ago by illiterate sand people does not make their arguments irrational or shallow.
4, Try to be less of jerk it will make your posts easier to read. First time I have run in to this kind of wanton dismissivness on here. So congrats on that
 
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Ethan Sutton

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That's absurd, Even Epicurus knew better then longing to substantiate a single explanation by deferring to the unexplainable. Multiverse comparisons are impossible, even if there is such a thing:

But one must not be so much in love with the explanation by a single way as wrongly to reject all the others from ignorance of what can, and what cannot, be within human knowledge, and consequent longing to discover the indiscoverable. (Epicurus)​



What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” (Rom. 9:14-15)
You haven't defined evil, you have equivocated moral evil with natural disaster.

Essentially, evil is a lack of goodness. Moral evil is not a physical thing; it is a lack or privation of a good thing. As Christian philosopher J. P. Moreland has noted, “Evil is a lack of goodness. It is goodness spoiled. You can have good without evil, but you cannot have evil without good.” Or as Christian apologist Greg Koukl has said, “Human freedom was used in such a way as to diminish goodness in the world, and that diminution, that lack of goodness, that is what we call evil.” (What is the definition of evil?)
Light has physical properties, darkness is simply the absence of light. Evil is the void, the emptiness of the world without God. Tragedy and grief confront us, not because God's divine attributes and eternal nature is lacking but because we lack God in this world due to sin.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. (Rom. 8:20-22)
God could remove natural disaster, disease and want, the reason he doesn't is that it won't solve the moral evil of the human will. God will remove evil from the world but only after deconstructing creation through the Trumpets and Vials of Wrath, evil does not go quietly. Even after a thousand years of peace and security, no want, no disease or disaster this is how evil inspires unredeemed humanity:

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:8-10)
You want God to vanquish evil because he can, you grossly underestimate the tenacity of evil. It permeates our world and the true evil is willful rebellion against God. It wraps itself around the ego and makes it conceited, telling us we are gods. If you want to talk about evil then consider the source of evil, instead of these shallow rationalizations.

You do know what All Powerful means right? I don't care how tenacious something is if some hates evil that is all powerful evil wouldn't exist, Full stop.
 
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mark kennedy

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Mark

1, if you have nothing to compare something to how can you demonstrate contrast and define it in a meaningful way ?
Ethan, we do, but this isn't about some convoluted string theory, it's about that nature of God and evil.

2, That is my definition of evil. Pretending you know something I don't know about evil is not productive.
It's not a complete definition, it's certainly not an accurate one. You don't get to make evil something you don't like.
3, just because someone doesn't assume that book that was written 2000 years ago by illiterate sand people does not make their arguments irrational or shallow.
Those scrolls are the best preserved documents from history, so much for them being illiterate. Your arguments are pedantic and fallacious because you didn't bother to define your core terms, not because of my choice of source material. I hardly consider you a primary source, your premise is flawed and your definition is little more then shallow rhetoric.
4, Try to be less of jerk it will make your posts easier to read. First time I have run in to this kind of wanton dismissivness on here. So congrats on that
Oh I'm often, if not always dismissive of fallacious rhetoric. Your begging the question of proof on your hands and knees, don't blame me if the illogical license your using here is evident and obvious.
You do know what All Powerful means right? I don't care how tenacious something is if some hates evil that is all powerful evil wouldn't exist, Full stop.

I know the meaning of God Almighty and it includes his ability to choose to punish or forgive. I know what all powerful is which includes the council of his own perfect will and his plans and purposes you know little about and could care less.

You are presuming entirely too much about what God will or will not allow. Your definition of evil is capricious and erroneous and with a genuine definition of evil in front of you, you return to your fallacious logic. Round and round it goes, in circles ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I usually don't work with any holy book unless asked to by my interlocutor. The bibles description of evil has way too much baggage for me. I define evil as being preventable unessasary human suffering. You would agree I think that God allows this on the daily.

Thanks for the response

Ethan

Perhaps we should do something about this problem. :D
 
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Ethan Sutton

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Ethan,

God doesn't force peace and prosperity on us. That's not his style.
So the Rapist has more of a right to rape then the one being raped has the right to not be raped ? Sorry to use an extreme example but i take this stuff pretty seriously.
 
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hedrick

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I can only see two answers to the OP:

1. Given God's eternal perspective, the existence of evil is part of accomplishing a greater good.

2. God brings good out of evil, but isn't responsible for the existence of evil.

Traditionally Christians give some variant of the first answer. I don't see anything logically impossible about it, so as a proof the deduction in the OP fails. The is issue isn't whether it's possible but whether it's credible. CF doesn't permit advocating the second in this forum.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So the Rapist has more of a right to rape then the one being raped has the right to not be raped ? Sorry to use an extreme example but i take this stuff pretty seriously.

God has given us permission to execute criminals (rape should be a capital offense). He isn't going to send a lightning bolt to do the job.
 
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Ethan Sutton

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I can only see two answers to the OP:

1. Given God's eternal perspective, the existence of evil is part of accomplishing a greater good.

2. God's brings good out of evil, but isn't responsible for the existence of evil.


1. Couldn't God being all powerful accomplish that greater good without evil ?
2. The bible seems to disagree with Gods Power level. Jeremiah 32:17
The bible seems to disagree whether or not God created evil. Isaiah 45:7

Thanks for your thought <3
 
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Ethan Sutton

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God has given us permission to execute criminals (rape should be a capital offense). He isn't going to send a lightning bolt to do the job.
Does that un-rape the victim ? Seeing all Hearing all and being all powerful could prevent it from happening but it happens anyway. Why is that ?
 
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hedrick

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1. Couldn't God being all powerful accomplish that greater good without evil ?
Most Christian thought on this assumes that this is probably logically impossible.
2. The bible seems to disagree with Gods Power level. Jeremiah 32:17
The bible seems to disagree whether or not God created evil. Isaiah 45:7
People who hold the 2nd position typically don't think the Bible is a single voice, and point to other indications. That's about as far as I can go in this forum.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Does that un-rape the victim ? Seeing all Hearing all and being all powerful could prevent it from happening but it happens anyway. Why is that ?

God has always left the world to it's evil, which is the best evidence of free choice. We have chosen evil, and God respects that choice, albeit with a warning.
 
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Ethan Sutton

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Most Christian thought on this assumes that this is probably logically impossible.

People who hold the 2nd position typically don't think the Bible is a single voice, and point to other indications. That's about as far as I can go in this forum.
When you say single voice what do you mean by that ?
When you say that accomplishing the greater good without evil is logically impossible are we agreed that God (if he is) is not all powerful ?
Thank you for your thoughts on this <3
 
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Ethan Sutton

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God has always left the world to it's evil, which is the best evidence of free choice. We have chosen evil, and God respects that choice, albeit with a warning.
He actually coerces us into accepting him on pain of eternal punishment. Is that really a choice ?
 
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