• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Epicurean Question

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
80
Southern Ga.
✟165,215.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
It's one of many variations on "The Problem of Evil" which seems a perfectly valid question to me. If it doesn't apply, then explain why it doesn't. Historical origins of an argument have no bearing on whether they are sound or not, nor do facts about other beliefs that the originator of the argument had.
.
It's only those who do not know God, which are so concerned with the problem of evil.

They put God on a pedestal, then out of their ignorance, begin to bring Him down to their level of humanity, with all of their frailties.

They question the actions of God as though they understand everything perfectly.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Couple of things.

He didn't expect Adam to remain faithful. The "fall" was a reenactment of the rebellion of Lucifer. It came off as scripted by God.

I don't see anywhere in the Bible that God didn't expect Adam to remain faithful. I also don't see anywhere that the event was scripted by God. But I do see that God gave Adam free choice, as He has with all of us.

[quote[He hasn't changed his "plan", although he has made some adjustments along the way.

His "objective" for man is to place him in his restored kingdom as new spiritual creations. His kingdom, glory, and name are foremost. We are building blocks for that purpose, not 'the' purpose.[/QUOTE]

It is true that God has a plan for salvation of mankind, but it is not scripted down to the last detail. Because man has a free choice about the decisions he makes, the plan has to accommodate all the twists and turns of man's decisions. We see those twists and turns right through the Old Testament. There were a lot of things that happened that God did not originally have in His plan, but they happened, and God accommodated for them in the development of His plan.

I might have a plan for making a banjo, and I have all the tools to make it. I get started and my bench saw breaks down, so I have to change my method by purchasing a jig-saw to do the shaping. Then the blade breaks on the jig saw and puts a large gouge in the timber of the banjo neck, so I have to throw that piece away and have to start again. That causes a delay in time. Then halfway through I am called away to an urgent job I have to do somewhere else. That causes another delay. I eventually get the neck finished, sand it down. put the fret slots in and install the frets. Then I realise that the tambourine I have bought wasn't the type that had tensioners on the sides, so I have to take it back and exchange it. Then I get the banjo finished, and have to wait again because I ordered the strings from Ebay and have to wait until they come from China. They didn't arrive right away and three weeks later I discover the courier package under a shrug next to my letter box. Once I finally get the banjo strung up and ready to play, I have the result that I planned for, but not exactly the way I had originally planned.

This is similar to God's plans. The development of the plan may not occur exactly has originally intended, but the final outcome was achieved. God did not intend the children of Israel to wander in the wilderness for 40 years before they entered the Promised Land, but it was the unbelief of the people that prevented it happening in the original timeframe, and the original people who were supposed to go there all died in the wilderness and a new generation of people actually entered Canaan. This is just one example.

Canaan was supposed to have been subdued completely in one generation under Joshua. It wasn't because of the lack of perseverance and faith of the people. Israel was supposed to have remained permanently but because the people went after idols, the land was taken away from them, and so a different direction of development was necessary to complete God's plan of salvation. Jesus was not supposed to have come into a land dominated by the Roman Empire. He was supposed to come as Messiah to a free and faithful Israel. But that was not the case.

Paul and the other Apostles expected Jesus to come back in their own lifetimes, but because of the decay in holiness and increasing heresies, the Second Coming was delayed and is still delayed, and it could be delayed for longer while there still are many cultures that have never heard the gospel.

If God had His script about what He wanted to happen, we wouldn't have had all these twists and turns and wrong decisions throughout the Old Testament and the Early Church, but we wouldn't have a race of free individuals who are able to make their own choices. Life would be like a Hollywood movie where the actors had to follow a script and be directed in every movement and speech bringing a predetermined outcome. But life is not like that.
 
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,640
✟499,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
It's only those who do not know God, which are so concerned with the problem of evil.

They put God on a pedestal, then out of their ignorance, begin to bring Him down to their level of humanity, with all of their frailties.

They question the actions of God as though they understand everything perfectly.
I would say that asking questions is admitting you don't know everything perfectly.

If there is a God, and He's all powerful, and He's benevolent, I would expect the world to look a certain way, and it's different from what I see. Why is that? If there is no God, then that would explain it. If there is such a God, then there's something I don't understand, so you're welcome to explain it to me.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: quatona
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,977
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I don't see anywhere in the Bible that God didn't expect Adam to remain faithful. I also don't see anywhere that the event was scripted by God. But I do see that God gave Adam free choice, as He has with all of us.

[quote[He hasn't changed his "plan", although he has made some adjustments along the way.

His "objective" for man is to place him in his restored kingdom as new spiritual creations. His kingdom, glory, and name are foremost. We are building blocks for that purpose, not 'the' purpose.

It is true that God has a plan for salvation of mankind, but it is not scripted down to the last detail. Because man has a free choice about the decisions he makes, the plan has to accommodate all the twists and turns of man's decisions. We see those twists and turns right through the Old Testament. There were a lot of things that happened that God did not originally have in His plan, but they happened, and God accommodated for them in the development of His plan.

I might have a plan for making a banjo, and I have all the tools to make it. I get started and my bench saw breaks down, so I have to change my method by purchasing a jig-saw to do the shaping. Then the blade breaks on the jig saw and puts a large gouge in the timber of the banjo neck, so I have to throw that piece away and have to start again. That causes a delay in time. Then halfway through I am called away to an urgent job I have to do somewhere else. That causes another delay. I eventually get the neck finished, sand it down. put the fret slots in and install the frets. Then I realise that the tambourine I have bought wasn't the type that had tensioners on the sides, so I have to take it back and exchange it. Then I get the banjo finished, and have to wait again because I ordered the strings from Ebay and have to wait until they come from China. They didn't arrive right away and three weeks later I discover the courier package under a shrug next to my letter box. Once I finally get the banjo strung up and ready to play, I have the result that I planned for, but not exactly the way I had originally planned.

This is similar to God's plans. The development of the plan may not occur exactly has originally intended, but the final outcome was achieved. God did not intend the children of Israel to wander in the wilderness for 40 years before they entered the Promised Land, but it was the unbelief of the people that prevented it happening in the original timeframe, and the original people who were supposed to go there all died in the wilderness and a new generation of people actually entered Canaan. This is just one example.

Canaan was supposed to have been subdued completely in one generation under Joshua. It wasn't because of the lack of perseverance and faith of the people. Israel was supposed to have remained permanently but because the people went after idols, the land was taken away from them, and so a different direction of development was necessary to complete God's plan of salvation. Jesus was not supposed to have come into a land dominated by the Roman Empire. He was supposed to come as Messiah to a free and faithful Israel. But that was not the case.

Paul and the other Apostles expected Jesus to come back in their own lifetimes, but because of the decay in holiness and increasing heresies, the Second Coming was delayed and is still delayed, and it could be delayed for longer while there still are many cultures that have never heard the gospel.

If God had His script about what He wanted to happen, we wouldn't have had all these twists and turns and wrong decisions throughout the Old Testament and the Early Church, but we wouldn't have a race of free individuals who are able to make their own choices. Life would be like a Hollywood movie where the actors had to follow a script and be directed in every movement and speech bringing a predetermined outcome. But life is not like that.[/QUOTE]

Mankind's journey to spirit life is like a wagon train heading west. The wagonmaster doesn't control everything that happens along the way, but he does see to it that they arrive at their destination.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,968
10,837
77
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟867,272.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I would say that asking questions is admitting you don't know everything perfectly.

If there is a God, and He's all powerful, and He's benevolent, I would expect the world to look a certain way, and it's different from what I see. Why is that? If there is no God, then that would explain it. If there is such a God, then there's something I don't understand, so you're welcome to explain it to me.
If you read the Gospels, especially the Gospel of John, you will get a good picture of the nature and character of Jesus. Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." So, if you want to know what God is like, then look carefully at the life of Jesus and how He showed God's nature and character in Himself. Jesus is God, and so He is the full expression of who God is and what He is like. The God of the Old Testament is often an incomplete view of God, because He was distant from most people, except for this closest to Him. David had to closest relationship with God as an Old Testament person, and you can see glimpses of God's true nature in the Psalms. But when Jesus came, He showed the true and complete nature of God, and Paul's description of the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, patience, goodness, faithfulness, self-control) and the attributes of love in 1 Corinthians 13 reinforces our view of Jesus as seen in the Gospels.

The Father is a Spirit, and therefore cannot have the same fellowship with us as a human being, Jesus does. We can relate to a real person, and that is why Jesus came to show us what God is really like. Jesus said in John's gospel that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. This means that seeing the character and nature of Jesus is the same as seeing the natural and character of God.
 
Upvote 0

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
80
Southern Ga.
✟165,215.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
If there is such a God, then there's something I don't understand, so you're welcome to explain it to me.
.

I asked you this question in my post #59

Have you ever heard of Dominion as it applies to the human race (Mankind)?

Are you able to define it in that context?
 
Upvote 0

Moral Orel

Proud Citizen of Moralton
Site Supporter
May 22, 2015
7,379
2,640
✟499,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Have you ever heard of Dominion as it applies to the human race (Mankind)?

Are you able to define it in that context?
No. Please explain it to me and how it applies to the situation.
 
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,276
4,681
70
Tolworth
✟414,919.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
John thank you for the response, Two small reflections.
1. If God has dealt with evil, being all powerful he wouldn't have to wait thousands of years to finish the job ?
2. "Good is what is in line with God's will." Can you name for me a terrible thing this reasoning cannot justify? 25,000 children die daily. Many of whom are Christians. Many of them their parents are crying out to God right now and their prayers won't be answered. If that is good, then this is a definition of good that your average mass murderer would have found chilling I think.

I look forward to your response.

Ethan
1/ On what basis do you say God should act in the way you want him to.

2/ Your definition of 'good' is limited to this current life. Assume for a moment there is no God, Can you justify all the suffering that is currently happening.

Yes Christians suffer, often at the hands of atheists and other religious groups, and yes Christians have been guilty of causing suffering.
Suffering is often caused by human action. Take Aids, whole generations have been wipped out and countless other are mentally and physically harmed by it. All because the apartite regiem separated husbands and wives, encoraging sexual promiscuity that has spread aids across South Africa.
Had they not done so and encouraged men and women to be faithfull in marriage the epidmic in South Africa would not be an epidemic.
 
Upvote 0