Eph 1:4 exegeted

[FreeGrace2]

.
Emsw,

When the FG2 said: "But show me any verse that says that one is saved by works",
he was not asking for a Scripture verse, but a verse from the Qur'an or some other book.
IMO, he doesn't believe Scripture verses.
.

Seems your posts are always wrong. The Bible is my only guide. Your view twists Scripture out of its true meaning.

 

[EmSw]

So, to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved, Paul said this: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED.

Apparently your view is that Paul's answer was wrong. Got it.

How does one believe on Jesus, when he denies the Lord's very words?

Who has the words of life?

Whoever builds his house with the words of Paul without the sure foundation of stone, laid in Zion, the precious cornerstone, will suffer great ruin.

Jesus had this to say about Himself in Luke 6 -
46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:

48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.
49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

Make the words of Jesus as your foundation, AND DO WHAT HE SAYS! Then you will have a sure foundation upon which to build. Don't make a ruin of your house by doing nothing Jesus said.

If you want to believe on the LORD Jesus Christ to be saved, do the things He says, or else, why call Him LORD?

 

[extraordinary]

A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved.
Paul's answer: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED.
Was Paul wrong?

Baby jailers must start with ingesting pablum because they are NOT ready to accept spiritual meat.

Later, believing jailers are told that they have entered into a COVENANT relationship with God!

And then they get to see all of the dozens of CONDITIONAL requirements!
Those who are not blind, that is!

Others, like you and most pastors, are (purposefully?) blind and do not see that
Christians are required to live up to their end of their binding covenant with God.

IT IS A COVENANT, FOLKS ... THE NEW COVENANT.

And it is a much superior covenant than the old covenant ...
because we have a new nature and the indwelling Holy Spirit to help us!

Covenants with God disprove the lunacy of absolute never-ending free grace, greasy grace, etc.
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How does one believe on Jesus, when he denies the Lord's very words?

It is quite noticeable that my point about your of view of Paul's answer to the jailer was ignored.

Who has the words of life?

Jesus, of course. And He promises eternal life to those who believe in Him for it.

Whoever builds his house with the words of Paul without the sure foundation of stone, laid in Zion, the precious cornerstone, will suffer great ruin.

So, to be clear, apparently Paul and Jesus didn't quite line up, is that it?

Jesus had this to say about Himself in Luke 6 -
46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:

48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.
49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

Why would anyone think Jesus was speaking about eternal life here?

Make the words of Jesus as your foundation, AND DO WHAT HE SAYS! Then you will have a sure foundation upon which to build. Don't make a ruin of your house by doing nothing Jesus said.[/QUTOE]
Your view horribly mixes apples and oranges, sadly. Maybe ok for a fruit salad, but not for understanding Scripture.

If you want to believe on the LORD Jesus Christ to be saved, do the things He says, or else, why call Him LORD?

So, to be clear, one must "do things" before they believe on Him. Is that it?

So, maybe your view is properly works plus faith then. Yet, where ever in the Word of God does anyone read that?

Your view has the same flaw as the view of Calvinists. Neither can provide verses that actually SAY what is being claimed.

Eph 2:8 refutes your view soundly.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

We are saved by grace. And through faith. Maybe that doesn't have much meaning for those who claim works are necessary for salvation.

Or, the next verse:
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So, it's a matter of taking your pick:

Work your head off and then be able to boast about it, or
Put your trust in Christ who did ALL the work for us, and actually get saved.

God doesn't save workers. He saves believers. 1 Cor 1:21 says so.

Once saved, God THEN commands work from the believers. In fact, that's what we were prepared FOR:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

There is a clear pattern in Eph 2:8-10. Some recognize the pattern; others don't.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Baby jailers must be fed pablum because they are NOT ready to accept spiritual meat.

Your opinion is noted and jettisoned. The term "baby" refers to those already saved, yet haven't grown up yet. So try another term. He was Unsaved when he asked his question.

Later, believing jailers are told that they have entered into a COVENANT relationship with God!

I understand OT covenants. But please provide some NT verses that says that. We are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we WILL BE SAVED. Why ignore or reject the answer of Paul?

And then they get to see all of the dozens of CONDITIONAL requirements!
Those who are not blind, that is!

There is only one requirement for salvation; faith in Christ. All the rest are requirements for reward and blessing. But for those who haven't ever studied what the Bible says about reward are "driving blind".

Others, like you and most pastors, are (purposefully?) blind and do not see that they are required to live up to their end of their binding covenant with God.

Not for salvation. For blessing and reward. I suggest a very thorough study of reward in the NT. And take the blinders off first.

IT IS A COVENANT, FOLKS ... THE NEW COVENANT.

And it is much better one than the old covenant ...
because we have a new nature and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

There are many covenants. Your statement is vague.

Covenants with God disprove the lunacy of absolute never-ending free grace, greasy grace, etc.
.

Sure, abuse grace, which is free, to your heart's desire. It's still free. That seems to bug some, though.

Those who think they have to work for salvation have abused grace. They think they add something that pleases God, and results in salvation.

But, that is wrong thinking. God is pleased with faith. Heb 11:6 says so. Even the OT recognized that principle: Heb 10:5

ps: I've provided a number of verses to back up my view. Unless someone exegetes these verses to show that I've misunderstood them, my view stands.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Your opinion is noted and jettisoned. The term "baby" refers to those already saved, yet haven't grown up yet.

No! Babes in Christ were those who worshipped the Messiah under the ceremonial law system.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No! Babes in Christ were those who worshipped the Messiah under the ceremonial law system.

Please provide some evidence for that view. In fact, Paul told the Corinthian congregation that they were "infants in Christ", who needed to grow up spiritually. 1 Cor 3:1.

Even the writer of Hebrews made basically the same charge to those he wrote to in Heb 5:12-14.

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

 

[extraordinary]

.
Anyone who is interested in their somewhat immediate future ...
is invited to partake of this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t7837693/
.

 

[mercy1061]

Does this suggest that one gets baptized after every sin they confess?

Did you know baptize means "wash"? I hope you "wash" with soap and water each day.

Luke 3
15 The people were in a state of great expectancy, and everyone was wondering whether perhaps Yochanan himself might be the Messiah; 16 so Yochanan answered them all, “I am immersing you in water, but he who is coming is more powerful than I — I’m not worthy to untie his sandals! He will immerse you in the Ruach HaKodesh and in fire. 17 He has with him his winnowing fork to clear out his threshing floor and gather his wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the straw with unquenchable fire!”

People would have to be baptised on a regular basis!!

Do you "shower", take a bath, or "wash" on a regular basis? You should "wash" for the purpose of repentance, so that you will not need to be washed again. You remember the woman who drew water at the well?

So, seems your view is that forgiveness is based on works, or "bearing fruit worthy of repentance". While John the baptizer certainly encouraged those he baptized to bear fruit worthy of repentance, it wasn't a requirement at all. Ever.

A tree that bears no fruit must be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Luke 3

9 Already the axe is at the root of the trees, ready to strike; every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown in the fire!”

I'll try to help out the confusion here.

All sins (past, present, and future) are forgiven on the basis of faith in Christ. Acts 10:43 says so.

I did not READ or HEAR Acts 10:43 say that; where did it say "past, present, and future sins?

43 All the prophets bear witness to him, that everyone who puts his trust in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

For the believer, sin gets our feet "dirty" and our feet need regular cleaning.

Do you walk outside with sandals in the wilderness? Your WHOLE body will become dirty if your feet are dirty.

That was the point Jesus was making with ol' rock head, I mean, Peter, when He washed the disciple's feet, including Judas'. Those who were already saved had been cleansed (had a bath), and only needed their feet to be washed. That's the daily confession of sin that occurs during our lives.

When you take a bath do you only wash your feet? If you take a bath, then walk by faith with sandals outside in the wilderness, then your feet need to be washed. Washing your feet only will not make your WHOLE body clean. It was customary for jews to wash each others feet, since, they already washed their body before they left their own house. Judas had dirty feet, Judas was not clean.

John 13
10 Yeshua said to him, “A man who has had a bath doesn’t need to wash, except his feet — his body is already clean. And you people are clean, but not all of you.” 11 (He knew who was betraying him; this is why he said, “Not all of you are clean.”)

1 Jn 1:9 is for believer only. And not for salvation, but for fellowship, which is the context for the first chapter.

And, finally, confession and repentance aren't the same. We see the difference in the parable of the prodigal son. When he came to his senses, he got up out of the pig sty and returned to the father, which is repentance, or a change of mind including change of direction. When he got to his father, he confessed his sins.

Confession of sin is just what the Greek word means; "to say the same thing", or admitting to God our actions are sinful. Repentance is turning from that sin.

How about another parable to illustrate the difference. One is driving down the freeway and at some point realizes they are driving in the wrong direction. That admission is confession: "I'm going the wrong way".

But, only when he turns the car around and goes in the opposite direction does he repent.

If you take a bath, you should wash your whole body, for the purpose of repentance. John washed jews in the muddy Jordan, so the ancient jews actually got dirty when they were baptized or washed by John, baptism brought shame on the person being washed by John. Naaman did not desire to wash in the Jordan 7 times, he desired to wash in purified water, not dirty water from the Jordan. It was Naaman's obedience to Elisha's message that gave him healing not the muddy waters from the Jordan. In order for you to obey the prophet, you must first believe the prophet's message, then you show your faithfulness by being baptized unto repentance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did you know baptize means "wash"? I hope you "wash" with soap and water each day.

That is a secondary meaning. There are a number of dry baptisms in Scripture. For example, the Exodus generation was "baptized" into Moses in 1 Cor 10:2. In fact, that was a reference to their trip through the Red Sea on dry ground (Ex 14:16). It was the Egyptian army that got their bath!! But they weren't baptized into Moses.

The word originally was used to describe the process of dying cloth by dipping it into a dye, thereby changing the color of the cloth. From this comes the idea that baptizing is an identification. The cloth is identified with another color when baptized (dipped) into it.

Believers are baptized (identified with Christ) when they place their faith in Him.

Water baptism is an ordinance that symbolizes our identification with the death, burial and resurrection with Christ (Rom 6:4-5).

Do you "shower", take a bath, or "wash" on a regular basis? You should "wash" for the purpose of repentance, so that you will not need to be washed again. You remember the woman who drew water at the well?

When Jesus was washing the feet of His disciples, and Peter resisted, Jesus had to give him a remedial tutorial on cleansing from sin. Note that He told Peter that he was already clean (had taken a bath), and noting that he was already saved. But he kept getting his feet dirty (daily sins that need confession).

Do you walk outside with sandals in the wilderness? Your WHOLE body will become dirty if your feet are dirty.

Not according to Jesus in John 13.

John 13
10 Yeshua said to him, “A man who has had a bath doesn’t need to wash, except his feet — his body is already clean. And you people are clean, but not all of you.” 11 (He knew who was betraying him; this is why he said, “Not all of you are clean.”)

Being "clean" here refers to salvation. But they still needed to wash their feet daily. And Jesus also noted that "one of you" (Judas) was not clean (not saved).

If you take a bath, you should wash your whole body, for the purpose of repentance.

No, the point is those saved are already clean and don't need a bath. But they all still need to wash their feet (confession of sin regularly).

 

[mercy1061]

That is a secondary meaning.

Baptism unto repentance is NOT a secondary meaning, Egypt repented.

Ex 14
13 Moshe answered the people, “Stop being so fearful! Remain steady, and you will see how Adonai is going to save you. He will do it today — today you have seen the Egyptians, but you will never see them again! 14 Adonai will do battle for you. Just calm yourselves down!”

There are a number of dry baptisms in Scripture.

Romans 6:3

3 Don’t you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death?

For example, the Exodus generation was "baptized" into Moses in 1 Cor 10:2. In fact, that was a reference to their trip through the Red Sea on dry ground (Ex 14:16). It was the Egyptian army that got their bath!! But they weren't baptized into Moses.

Pharoah's army was immersed into death. Noah's ark was immersed in the flood, the ark looked like a coffin.

Romans
3 Don’t you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death?

The word originally was used to describe the process of dying cloth by dipping it into a dye, thereby changing the color of the cloth. From this comes the idea that baptizing is an identification. The cloth is identified with another color when baptized (dipped) into it.

Believers are baptized (identified with Christ) when they place their faith in Him.

Water baptism is an ordinance that symbolizes our identification with the death, burial and resurrection with Christ (Rom 6:4-5).

Romans
3 Don’t you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death?

When Jesus was washing the feet of His disciples, and Peter resisted, Jesus had to give him a remedial tutorial on cleansing from sin. Note that He told Peter that he was already clean (had taken a bath), and noting that he was already saved. But he kept getting his feet dirty (daily sins that need confession).


Not according to Jesus in John 13.


Being "clean" here refers to salvation. But they still needed to wash their feet daily. And Jesus also noted that "one of you" (Judas) was not clean (not saved).


No, the point is those saved are already clean and don't need a bath. But they all still need to wash their feet (confession of sin regularly).

I guess the scriptures mean salvation when you say so, it does not mean salvation when you do not say so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Baptism unto repentance is NOT a secondary meaning, Egypt repented.

Ex 14
13 Moshe answered the people, “Stop being so fearful! Remain steady, and you will see how Adonai is going to save you. He will do it today — today you have seen the Egyptians, but you will never see them again! 14 Adonai will do battle for you. Just calm yourselves down!”

Your statement doesn't fit the verse. Where is there any statement about Egypt repenting???

Romans 6:3 Don’t you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death?

Yes, this is one example of a dry baptism, which is an identification, just as the Israelites were baptised into Moses.

Pharoah's army was immersed into death.

No, they actually just drowned when God released the Red Sea. There is NOTHING in Scripture that describes the Egyptians being baptized or immersed as an identification.

Further, they weren't identified into death. They actually died.

Noah's ark was immersed in the flood, the ark looked like a coffin.

Where do you get these things??? The ark didn't sink, neither was it immersed. In fact, it floated in the water. There is a huge difference between immersion and floating.

Romans
3 Don’t you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death?

Yes, a dry baptism, or identification, as I proved from Scripure. You are free to review my earlier post.

Romans
3 Don’t you know that those of us who have been immersed into the Messiah Yeshua have been immersed into his death?

See above.

I guess the scriptures mean salvation when you say so, it does not mean salvation when you do not say so.

First, one must be able to define what is meant by "salvation". Which kind are you referring to here? There are many.

 

[mercy1061]

Your statement doesn't fit the verse. Where is there any statement about Egypt repenting???

Repent means to "cease" or stop what you are doing, that's it! Egypt was forced to repent, baptized in the Red Sea unto their own death. When a man dies he ceases to exist. John did say he baptized with water when he baptized Israel, even Yeshua unto his death. John was a levite priest, thus he needed a lamb to offer for the people and himself.

Yes, this is one example of a dry baptism, which is an identification, just as the Israelites were baptised into Moses.


No, they actually just drowned when God released the Red Sea. There is NOTHING in Scripture that describes the Egyptians being baptized or immersed as an identification.

You argue against me, by telling me that what I say is not written in scripture, yet what you say is not written; where does it say baptism is for "identification"? You have a self-destructive theology, you seek to defeat my argument by telling me it is not written, then you present evidence that is not written to prove your point. Your point is therefore moot, by your own evidence.

Romans 6
4 Through immersion into his death we were buried with him; so that just as, through the glory of the Father, the Messiah was raised from the dead, likewise we too might live a new life.

Did they die when they were drowned and/or baptized? You argue without meaning. Did Israel cease to exist as a nation? This is why the pharisees refused to be baptized by John, they knew what baptism meant; baptism means death, especially water baptism.

Further, they weren't identified into death. They actually died.

You keep saying "identification", Israel actually died as a nation, after they persuaded the Romans to crucify Yeshua.

Where do you get these things??? The ark didn't sink, neither was it immersed. In fact, it floated in the water. There is a huge difference between immersion and floating.

I never said the ark sinked, the ark did get wet, the ark did not endure a dry baptism. Of course, Noah built the ark with a "coffin-shape".

Yes, a dry baptism, or identification, as I proved from Scripure. You are free to review my earlier post.


See above.


First, one must be able to define what is meant by "salvation". Which kind are you referring to here? There are many.

You keep saying "dry baptism" when water is present and available, the ancient jews got wet by John. You keep using the word "salvation", when I speak about baptism, so you tell me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Repent means to "cease" or stop what you are doing, that's it!

In fact, it means a change of mind that leads to a change of direction. The Egyptians had no such "change of mind". They were drowned while actively pursuing the Israelites. There was NO repentance. You're forcing words to same something different than they mean. We call that "eigesgeis".

Egypt was forced to repent, baptized in the Red Sea unto their own death.

See above for reality. No one can force another one to change their mind. They were hell bent on destroying Israel, and God destroyed the army. Period. No repentance by the Egyptians.

When a man dies he ceases to exist.

So he, uh, disappears?? Is that your meaning? If so, your view is quite off track. When a man dies, his soul leaves his body, but both the body continues to exist, though subject to rapid decay, and his soul continues to exist for eternity; either in the presence of God because he possessed eternal life, or apart from God (spiritual death) in hell, ultimately moved to the lake of fire.

Those familiar with the Bible know all this.

John did say he baptized with water when he baptized Israel, even Yeshua unto his death.

Wrong again. John did NOT "baptize Jesus unto His death". I have no idea where you get all this stuff.

You argue against me, by telling me that what I say is not written in scripture, yet what you say is not written; where does it say baptism is for "identification"?

I have already explained the meaning of the Greek for baptize. I recommend reviewing my post on that.

You have a self-destructive theology, you seek to defeat my argument by telling me it is not written, then you present evidence that is not written to prove your point. Your point is therefore moot, by your own evidence.

This doesn't make any sense. How is my theology "self-destructive"? Please explain. I HAVE told you what is not written. And I HAVE presented what is written. But one has to actually read my posts to understand what I have written.

Romans 6
4 Through immersion into his death we were buried with him; so that just as, through the glory of the Father, the Messiah was raised from the dead, likewise we too might live a new life.

I don't know what translation being used here, but this is from the NASB:

Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Again, "through baptism into death" is a reference to the believer's being identified with Christ in His death. As well, "as Christ was raised from the dead", "so we too might (subjunctive-potential) walk in newness of life".

Did they die when they were drowned and/or baptized?

Of course the Egyptian army died when they were drowned. That's what being drowned means. Apparently words don't have the same meaning for you that they have from the dictionary.

You argue without meaning.

Your previous statement is totally without meaning.

Did Israel cease to exist as a nation?

Throughtout their history, they did lose status as a nation. But as a people chosen by God, they have NEVER ceased to exist. Just think of all the ancient people groups noted in Scripture. Do any of them still exist? No. Do the Jews still exist? Of course. And they will always exist, because God promised them that they will.

This is why the pharisees refused to be baptized by John, they knew what baptism meant; baptism means death, especially water baptism.

Please refer to a Greek lexicon for the proper meaning of baptism. It does NOT mean death. Not even close. This isn't even arguable.

You keep saying "identification", Israel actually died as a nation, after they persuaded the Romans to crucify Yeshua.

I keep saying it because that is the actual root meaning of the word. I strongly suggest reviewing my post that explains it. No need to keep repeating what it means.

btw, Israel has died as a nation numerous times throughout their history. As an example, when they were enslaved for 400 years in Egypt. But there have been many other times. The Babylonian captivity is another example.

I suggest a review of Jewish history.

I never said the ark sinked

The exact word was "immersed". What in heck does immerse mean? It means to be put under the water. Please review the meaning of words before making such errant claims.

the ark did get wet, the ark did not endure a dry baptism. Of course, Noah built the ark with a "coffin-shape".

I couldn't care less about the shape of the ark. In fact, its shape is meaningless.

What is important is that the ark SAVED 8 people from physical death. Which is Peter's point in 1 Pet 3:20 - who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water

They weren't saved BY water, but THROUGH water, by the ark, which kep them FROM the water.

You keep saying "dry baptism" when water is present and available, the ancient jews got wet by John.

John's baptism WAS wet. He used water. Please do some research before making such gaffs. And he clearly noted that Jesus would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.

Matt 3:11 - “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Please show me where there is any mention of water in the baptism from Jesus. I find only the Holy Spirit and fire. If water was involved, there would be no fire, as water puts out fire.

You keep using the word "salvation", when I speak about baptism, so you tell me.

From one of your own posts:
I guess the scriptures mean salvation when you say so, it does not mean salvation when you do not say so.

So, my question was directed at what you mean by salvation.

My use of "dry baptism" is crystal clear: no water involved. Real simple. Just like Jesus baptizing with the Holy Spirit and fire. No water. Dry baptism.

Now, please explain what you think "salvation" means. There are several.

 

[bleitzel]

I would tweak it a little bit:

just as (similar to the Jews) He (God) chose (chose) us (Gentile believers) in Him (Christ ) before the foundation of the world (just as his election of the Jews was from the beginning of time), that we would be (the purpose of God's election of believers) holy and blameless (how believers are supposed to live, what believers were elected to do as service for Him) before Him.

Paul is telling us that just as God, from the beginning of time, chose the Jews to be his family, his people through their ancestral lineage, he chose us Gentiles to be his adopted family, through Christ. And this was also planned from the beginning of time, just like his special plan for the Jews. Paul's message here in Ephesians 1 is that whatever specialness their is/was about being a Jew, that was not to the exclusion of the Gentiles, rather that God had another special plan for them as well so both groups are special, albeit in their own way.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I would tweak it a little bit:

Paul is telling us that just as God, from the beginning of time, chose the Jews to be his family, his people through their ancestral lineage, he chose us Gentiles to be his adopted family, through Christ. And this was also planned from the beginning of time, just like his special plan for the Jews. Paul's message here in Ephesians 1 is that whatever specialness their is/was about being a Jew, that was not to the exclusion of the Gentiles, rather that God had another special plan for them as well so both groups are special, albeit in their own way.

Paul was NOT saying that "Gentiles" in the sense you understand the term were chosen. The "Gentiles" Paul was addressing were the ten lost tribes of Israel.

There were two classes of Gentiles in biblical times.

Class 1: The ten lost tribes of Israel
Class 2: Ethnic Gentiles

 

[bleitzel]

Paul was NOT saying that "Gentiles" in the sense you understand the term were chosen. The "Gentiles" Paul was addressing were the ten lost tribes of Israel.

There were two classes of Gentiles in biblical times.

Class 1: The ten lost tribes of Israel
Class 2: Ethnic Gentiles

Paul doesn't really even say "Gentiles" in Eph 1. What I mean is that when Paul is writing to the church at Ephesus he's writing to a church that is comprised primarily of non-Jewish converts. Certainly there would have been some Jewish-converts in the church as well, but when I said Gentiles I was referring to non-Jews.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Paul doesn't really even say "Gentiles" in Eph 1. What I mean is that when Paul is writing to the church at Ephesus he's writing to a church that is comprised primarily of non-Jewish converts. Certainly there would have been some Jewish-converts in the church as well, but when I said Gentiles I was referring to non-Jews.

Paul calls them "Gentiles" in chapters 2-3. The Gentiles in the church at Ephesus were of the ten lost tribes of Israel. They were Israelites. They were secularized Jews. The Circumcision called them "Gentiles."

 

[bleitzel]

Paul calls them "Gentiles" in chapters 2-3. The Gentiles in the church at Ephesus were of the ten lost tribes of Israel. They were Israelites. They were secularized Jews. The Circumcision called them "Gentiles."

Where exactly are you getting that from? I'll have to go back and read what you've cited because I don't remember the term Gentile ever referring to Jews before.

 

[tulipbee]

Predestinated salvation ( Particular Election )
is the plain teaching of Scripture.

"Many are called, but few are chosen."
( Matthew 22:14 KJV )

"As many as had been appointed to
eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:14
NASB )

"He chose us in Him before the
foundation of the world." ( Ephesians
1:4 NASB )

"I will be gracious to whom I will be
gracious, and will show compassion
on whom I will show compassion."
( Exodus 33:19 NASB, cf Romans
9:5 )

"...according to God's gracious choice."
( Romans 11:5 NASB )

"To you it has been granted to know
the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,
but to them it has not been granted."
( Matthew 13:11 NASB )

"Those who were chosen obtained it,
and the rest were hardened." ( Romans
11:7 NASB )

"You did not choose Me, but I chose
you, and appointed you" ( John 15:16
NASB )

"I do not speak of all of you. I know the
ones I have chosen" ( John 13:18 NASB )

Particular Election is one of the best documented
doctrines in Scripture. Even the Lord's making
the Hebrews His "chosen people" was Particular
Election.