Eph 1:4 exegeted

[Hentenza]

Still not a problem. The point is that those He chose before the foundation of the world are still those who believe. No one else.

When God made this "choice" is not relevant. The point is who He chose. Believers.

Why is the "timing" of God's choice not relevant? Are you doing an exegete of the text or not?

Secondly, of course God chose those who would be believers. By default, He did not choose those who would not be believers.

Seems Calvinists want this verse to say that God chose who would become a believer, but it sure doesn't say that. It very clearly says that He chose believers to be holy and blameless.

Did God choose those who would not be believers? And, yes, believers are holy and blameless. Believers are justified.

I take the verse to mean that God chose the category "believer" before time.

Wait, you just told me that God's "timing" is irrelevant. Which one is it?

Doesn't matter that no believer existed at that time.

Why?

In fact, irrelevant, since God is omniscient.

Yes, but man is not. God knows all past, present, and future so He knows whom He chose from before "man's time."

The point remains that He chose believers for something; to be holy and blameless.

Sure, and those He chose are indeed holy and blameless. Just about every epistle that Paul wrote is addressed to the "saints." And Paul also explains in Romans 8 that "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

 

[hedrick]

I'm not objecting to the idea that we're called to a purpose. What he's trying to do is downplay the "chose us" to replace it with "God chose a nameless group, a group of faith exercising people (whom he foreknew would exercise faith.)

OK, I hadn't understood that from your previous comment.

Personally I find both the standard Calvinist reading and the usual non-Calvinist understanding of "election in Christ" plausible for this passage. The issue will have to be settled elsewhere.

 

[Foghorn]

This is problematic. God "chose us" is a completed action (aorist indicative). He chose us "before the foundation of the world." Those that He chose were not alive before the foundation of the world, therefore those He chose are in fact future believers.

Amen. And He knows those who are His (the chosen) through the ages, and these He calls and regenerates.

He alone is the cause of our salvation.

 

[Foghorn]

Secondly, of course God chose those who would be believers. By default, He did not choose those who would not be believers.

And they are (become) believers because of God choosing them and faithfully regenerating them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why is the "timing" of God's choice not relevant?

God is not time bound, as are humans. The point is that He chose those who would believe for a purpose; to be holy and blameless.

Are you doing an exegete of the text or not?

That was the OP. The parentheses within the verse is the exegesis.

Secondly, of course God chose those who would be believers. By default, He did not choose those who would not be believers.

OK. And, again, the point is that He chose believers. Not who would believe, as in causing who will believe, as RT thinks election is about.

Did God choose those who would not be believers? And, yes, believers are holy and blameless. Believers are justified.

This speaks of positional truth, so yes. But I believe Paul was addressing experiential sanctification, not positional. The text is clear as to what God chose believers to be. Believers were chosen to be holy and blameless. Yes, positionally, we are, but experientially, we don't start out that way. iow, we have to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling".

Wait, you just told me that God's "timing" is irrelevant. Which one is it?

This isn't really that difficult. The verse tells humans, who are time bound, WHEN God's choice occurred. The point is that WHEN He chose doesn't change the point of WHY He chose and the purpose for which He chose.

Why?

Why would or should it matter that no believer existed when He made His choice? Please explain. The choice was a corporate choice.

Yes, but man is not. God knows all past, present, and future so He knows whom He chose from before "man's time."

I don't know what your point is here. Please explain why it would matter that no believer existed WHEN He made the choice of believers to be holy and blameless.

Sure, and those He chose are indeed holy and blameless.

Positionally, yes. But there is an experiential aspect to His choice. It's what believers were chosen to be, and all the commands throughout the epistles support that. iow, it explains the commands.

Just about every epistle that Paul wrote is addressed to the "saints." And Paul also explains in Romans 8 that "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Of course not. I have no idea why you might think I wasn't aware of that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Personally I find both the standard Calvinist reading and the usual non-Calvinist understanding of "election in Christ" plausible for this passage. The issue will have to be settled elsewhere.

Gee, and I thought this thread would settle the issue.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Amen. And He knows those who are His (the chosen) through the ages, and these He calls and regenerates.

He alone is the cause of our salvation.

All this is true. But doesn't address the OP in any way. If my exegesis is incorrect, please proceed to make corrections. Thanks.

 

[Foghorn]

All this is true. But doesn't address the OP in any way. If my exegesis is incorrect, please proceed to make corrections. Thanks.

I was just pointing out a few truths, I'm glad you agree.

I'll go back to the op and consider it. Thanks,

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not objecting to the idea that we're called to a purpose. What he's trying to do is downplay the "chose us" to replace it with "God chose a nameless group, a group of faith exercising people (whom he foreknew would exercise faith.)

Seems I missed this quote until quoted by another poster.

The charge here is false, for I specifically identified the group, so it is NOT "nameless" at all. I'm not sure why such false wording was used.

The name of the chosen group is this: believers. That's the name of the group.

Please don't make erroneous claims like that.

 

[Foghorn]

I will exegete Eph 1:4 from the NASB with parentheses for clarity:

Ok.

just as He (God) chose (elected) us (believers per 1:19) in Him

We were not chosen because we were believers. That is not the teaching of Eph 1:19. Hope that's not what your suggesting?

(speaks to postitional truth of being placed in union with Christ per 1:13) before the foundation of the world (when God's election occurred), that we would be (the purpose of God's election of believers) holy and blameless (how believers are supposed to live, what believers were elected to do as service for Him) before Him.

Your meaning, if you have one is kinda vague.

If my clarifying parentheses are inaccurate, I invite correction that is based on Scripture. Opinions don't matter here. If my exegesis can be refuted from Scripture, please do so.

Like everyone else, I do not want to be wrong.

Thanks.

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

I understand it as, God, by His election from everlasting framed a new body of the human race (opposite of the first where Adam was the head, in whom all men have sinned and are dead) an appointed Christ to be it's Head, that in Him it might be all gathered together, and by Him made partakers of His grace, life and glory.

God brings this, His decree, to pass in His appointed time. God bestows all His blessings upon His church by Christ in the sacred mystical union, (2 Tim 1:9).

This is all done in Christ, ...this election is free and undeserved, and not in regard to any foreseen good in us.

We should be holy.......... He does not say because we were holy, or that He did foresee that we would be so. For our holiness is so far from being the cause of our election, that rather our holiness is an effect of election, because God had called them, whom before He had elected, and afterwards justified,.... and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. Romans 8:30.

Perhaps it will help me to better understand you position if you show me where you either agree or disagree here?

 

[Foghorn]

Seems I missed this quote until quoted by another poster.

The charge here is false, for I specifically identified the group, so it is NOT "nameless" at all. I'm not sure why such false wording was used.

The name of the chosen group is this: believers. That's the name of the group.

Please don't make erroneous claims like that.

Do you believe God chose us individually and know us by name? Or just in general a set of believers?

If the later, then stenerson's reply

Originally Posted by stenerson

I'm not objecting to the idea that we're called to a purpose. What he's trying to do is downplay the "chose us" to replace it with "God chose a nameless group, a group of faith exercising people (whom he foreknew would exercise faith.)
​

is accurate.

 

[Hentenza]

God is not time bound, as are humans. The point is that He chose those who would believe for a purpose; to be holy and blameless.

Ok, but your exegesis of this part of the verse states "when God's election occurred" so you are already assigning a time table. You cannot say that God is not time bound and then assign a "time." God chose those who believe from "before the foundations of the world." God is timeless but the "world" is not. What this means is that mankind came after the foundation of the world and God "chose" who would believe "before" mankind was. If He chose those who would believe before mankind was then all that He chose to be believers are born progressively after the foundation of the world.

OK. And, again, the point is that He chose believers. Not who would believe, as in causing who will believe, as RT thinks election is about.

Wait. If God chose believers "before the foundation of the world" as you state in your OP and since mankind did not exist "before the foundation of the world" then would not all that He chose to be believers become believers as they are born throughout the years? Or are you proposing that those who God chose are born believers already?

This speaks of positional truth, so yes. But I believe Paul was addressing experiential sanctification, not positional. The text is clear as to what God chose believers to be. Believers were chosen to be holy and blameless. Yes, positionally, we are, but experientially, we don't start out that way. iow, we have to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling".

But then, "experientially" there are no believers that will ever be holy and blameless since all sin. Your point is wasted. Secondly, since God "chose" those who would believe, and since the action is a completed action (prior to an individual's birth), and since we are "created" (Eph. 2:10, κτισθέντες, aorist participle passive, not by our action) as workers for good works, and since salvation is apart of works (Eph. 2:9), then the works we do we do from salvation not for salvation. Consequentially, "working out our salvation with trembling and fear" does not refer to the first step of salvation (justification) but to the second step of salvation (sanctification) which is a life long endeavor. However, the second step of salvation does not affect our ultimate salvation other than as it relates to rewards (1 Cor. 3). So "positionally" and "experientally" are not separate conditions but the same condition.

This isn't really that difficult. The verse tells humans, who are time bound, WHEN God's choice occurred. The point is that WHEN He chose doesn't change the point of WHY He chose and the purpose for which He chose.

Mmm.. if He chose before (on time) mankind existed, and if He chose for purpose which (as stated above) He freely gives, and since God finishes what He started, then the purpose will be achieved.

Why would or should it matter that no believer existed when He made His choice? Please explain. The choice was a corporate choice.

Which choice was a corporate choice?

I don't know what your point is here. Please explain why it would matter that no believer existed WHEN He made the choice of believers to be holy and blameless.

Because you stated "Seems Calvinists want this verse to say that God chose who would become a believer, but it sure doesn't say that." If God chose the believer before the foundation of the world (as the verse states) and since the believers were yet to be born when God made the choices (as per your parenthetical statement in your OP), then God most certainly knew who would become a believer.

Positionally, yes. But there is an experiential aspect to His choice. It's what believers were chosen to be, and all the commands throughout the epistles support that. iow, it explains the commands.

See above.

Of course not. I have no idea why you might think I wasn't aware of that.

Are you disagreeing with the verse I posted from Romans 1 or with Paul addressing his letters to the saints of the churches or both?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok.

Great! Thanks for your time.

We were not chosen because we were believers. That is not the teaching of Eph 1:19. Hope that's not what your suggesting?

I am not suggesting anything. The verse clearly states that God chose believers for something. If the "us" doesn't mean believers, then who does it refer to? 1:19 defines who the "us" is. Paul wrote to believers, he addressed them, and that is what 1:4 is saying; God chose believers.

Your meaning, if you have one is kinda vague.

What does the parenthetical phrase "in Him" mean, if not referring to positional truth. All believers are positioned in Him by the Holy Spirit, per 1:13.

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

I understand it as, God, by His election from everlasting framed a new body of the human race (opposite of the first where Adam was the head, in whom all men have sinned and are dead) an appointed Christ to be it's Head, that in Him it might be all gathered together, and by Him made partakers of His grace, life and glory. [/QUOTE]
Basically, your understanding is that chose some to be believers, then? That's not what the verse says.

God brings this, His decree, to pass in His appointed time. God bestows all His blessings upon His church by Christ in the sacred mystical union, (2 Tim 1:9).

Unrelated to 1:4.

This is all done in Christ, ...this election is free and undeserved, and not in regard to any foreseen good in us.

Sounds as though your view is that election is for salvation, which this verse is not saying at all. In fact, those He chose are already saved. They are believers.

We should be holy.......... He does not say because we were holy, or that He did foresee that we would be so. For our holiness is so far from being the cause of our election, that rather our holiness is an effect of election, because God had called them, whom before He had elected, and afterwards justified,.... and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. Romans 8:30.

Perhaps it will help me to better understand you position if you show me where you either agree or disagree here?

The purpose of this election is that believers are to be holy and blameless, which is supported by the many other verses that command believers to be holy and blameless. Rom 8:30 isn't about election. It's about predestination, calling, justification and glorification. Again, you're assuming election is about choosing those He will save. It isn't.

Eph 1:4 says that God elects believers to be holy and blameless. That's what we're elected to do; be holy and blameless. iow, be Christ-like.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you believe God chose us individually and know us by name? Or just in general a set of believers?

Of course God knows each person individually and by name. He's omniscient. But Eph 1:4 is about electing a group of believers for the purpose of being holy and blameless. This verse isn't about God choosing who to save.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok, but your exegesis of this part of the verse states "when God's election occurred" so you are already assigning a time table. You cannot say that God is not time bound and then assign a "time."

God is not time bound, but in communicating with mankind, He certainly must use words related to time for our benefit. Not difficult at all.

God chose those who believe from "before the foundations of the world." God is timeless but the "world" is not. What this means is that mankind came after the foundation of the world and God "chose" who would believe "before" mankind was.

What I've been saying.

If He chose those who would believe before mankind was then all that He chose to be believers are born progressively after the foundation of the world.

Please study your own words here. To say "chose those who would believe" is not the same as saying "He chose to be believers". You've slipped in an idea that cannot be found in Scripture. Eph 1:4 certainly does NOT say that God chose anyone to be a believer.

Wait. If God chose believers "before the foundation of the world" as you state in your OP and since mankind did not exist "before the foundation of the world" then would not all that He chose to be believers become believers as they are born throughout the years?

You've just done it again: He didn't choose anyone to be a believer, and this verse, nor any other, says that. That complelely misunderstands who God chose, and for what purpose.

Or are you proposing that those who God chose are born believers already?

No, He chose those who would become believers, but not because He chose who would believe, as you've now inserted, twice.

But then, "experientially" there are no believers that will ever be holy and blameless since all sin. Your point is wasted.

Really? So the commands to be "Christ-like" is wasted on all believers then? Someone should have told Paul that. He could have saved some ink.

Secondly, since God "chose" those who would believe, and since the action is a completed action (prior to an individual's birth), and since we are "created" (Eph. 2:10, κτισθέντες, aorist participle passive, not by our action) as workers for good works, and since salvation is apart of works (Eph. 2:9), then the works we do we do from salvation not for salvation.

This is the THIRD time in your post you've said "God chose those who would believe". Let's get this right. Do you believe Eph 1:4 teaches that God is the One who determines who will believe? Why or why not?

Yes, God has chosen believers to be holy and blameless. That's exactly what Eph 1:4 says.

It does not say or even suggest that God determines who will believe. But He certainly knows who will.

Consequentially, "working out our salvation with trembling and fear" does not refer to the first step of salvation (justification) but to the second step of salvation (sanctification) which is a life long endeavor.

I know that and posted that. Maybe my post was misunderstood.

However, the second step of salvation does not affect our ultimate salvation other than as it relates to rewards (1 Cor. 3). So "positionally" and "experientally" are not separate conditions but the same condition.

No, they aren't. Believers are immediately positionally sanctified because of having been placed or sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit. But many believers never become experientially sanctified. Too much grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit.

Mmm.. if He chose before (on time) mankind existed, and if He chose for purpose which (as stated above) He freely gives, and since God finishes what He started, then the purpose will be achieved.

The focus in 1:4 is to be holy and blameless in time. Of course all believers will be holy and blameless in eternity. That's not what He chose believers to be.

Which choice was a corporate choice?

God's choice of believers to be holy and blameless. What would lead one to think that God individually chooses each believer to be holy and blameless.

Wouldn't you think that God wants ALL of His children to have a "family resemblance", rather than just some of them?

I'll put it another way. He chose all of His children to have a family resemblance (Christ-like).

Because you stated "Seems Calvinists want this verse to say that God chose who would become a believer, but it sure doesn't say that." If God chose the believer before the foundation of the world (as the verse states) and since the believers were yet to be born when God made the choices (as per your parenthetical statement in your OP), then God most certainly knew who would become a believer.

I've never argued otherwise about God knowing who would believe, but that isn't the point. He chose all who believe to be holy and blameless. See above for my clarification.

Are you disagreeing with the verse I posted from Romans 1 or with Paul addressing his letters to the saints of the churches or both?

Neither. And again, I have no idea why you'd think I was disagreeing with Rom 1 or that Paul was writing to the saints.

What did I post that leads one to that wrong conclusion?

 

[Foghorn]

If He chose those who would believe before mankind was then all that He chose to be believers are born progressively after the foundation of the world.

Please study your own words here. To say "chose those who would believe" is not the same as saying "He chose to be believers". You've slipped in an idea that cannot be found in Scripture. Eph 1:4 certainly does NOT say that God chose anyone to be a believer.

It says neither. It says: just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be to be holy and blameless.

I don't understand how anyone could think otherwise? whats the motive behind it?

 

[Foghorn]

Of course God knows each person individually and by name. He's omniscient. But Eph 1:4 is about electing a group of believers for the purpose of being holy and blameless. This verse isn't about God choosing who to save.

Curious what your motive is here, I never said this verse teaches God electing certain persons, I just asked how you feel about that subject.

And of course concerning Stenerson's reply.

 

[Foghorn]

Of course God knows each person individually and by name. He's omniscient.

I didn't ask you that. Now please try and stay focused?

Let me ask this another way because I am curious, not trying to change the meaning of the Eph verse.

Do you believe God, in eternity looked ahead into the future, seeing who would believe by their own choice (good works) and these He put into the named category - "believers"? As you are speaking of in Ephesians?

Or, do you believe God, upon no human merit or condition, chose from eternity a particular people, therefore knowing them intimately, even by name and put these in the group named - "believers"? As you are speaking on in Ephesians?

Im just curious here bro, I am not doing as you misjudged, changing the meaning of the verse.

 

[stenerson]

Seems I missed this quote until quoted by another poster.

The charge here is false, for I specifically identified the group, so it is NOT "nameless" at all. I'm not sure why such false wording was used.

The name of the chosen group is this: believers. That's the name of the group.

Please don't make erroneous claims like that.

You claim the name of the group is "believers". I claim you see it as a nameless group (as you put it corporate) of faith exercising people.

I'm not sure what the difference is between "believers" and a "faith exercising group." What's the erroneous claim here?

By the way the phrase was "chose us". Not "chose those that would believe", or "chose those that would experientialy grow in holiness." Of course they are saved, Spirit filled believers growing experimentally in holiness. But that's not the point or flow of this exuberant, letter. He was speaking to individuals about them and himself and the grace that has been freely lavished on them and determined by God since before the foundation of the world. And yes, the timing is important, 1st of all because God took the time to tell us when, and because it jives with many scriptural references about God's eternal, everlasting love towards a select group.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It says neither. It says: just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be to be holy and blameless.

I don't understand how anyone could think otherwise? whats the motive behind it?

Specifically, who did God chose, and for what purpose? Very simple.