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Hi holdon,
holdon:
Now, where do you see gentiles in this portion of Scripture???? Nowhere. Are you a descendant of Isaac? Are you a descendant of Jacob? (vs. 10 - 13). Are you of the people of Israel, under Moses? (vs. 15). No gentile was part of those promises.
Jim:
Throughout the first 8 chapters, Paul had already identified the ones who are being saved. They are the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew. He had already identified the children of the promise as us (all the saints, both Gentile and Jew) in 4:13-16 (4:16). He had already identified the children of God as we (all the saints, both Gentile and Jew) in 8:14-18 (8:16).
Then, in 9:1-5, Paul laments that most Israelites are not participating in this salvation in which all the saints, both Gentile and Jew, are participating.
Then, in 9:6-8, Paul states that this failure of most Israelites to participate in this salvation in which all the saints, both Gentile and Jew, are participating is not a failure of Gods word, and he explain why. His explanation is that these unbelieving Israelites are NOT Israel. Theyre not the Israel that is being saved. Who is this Israel that is being saved? The saints are the ones being saved, this Israel, both Gentile and Jew, as Paul had already explained throughout the first 8 chapters. In describing the citizens of this saved Israel, Paul even uses the same terminology (the children of the promise and the children of God) that he had already applied to the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew, in 4:13-16 (4:16) and 8:14-18 (8:16).
So, yes, youre being dishonest in excluding Gentile believers from the citizenship of this saved Israel in 9:6-8. You are denying Pauls plain identification of the citizens of this saved Israel as the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew. By excluding Gentile believers from this saved Israel, you are denying Pauls own definition of the children of the promise / the children of God, whom he defines as all the saints, both Gentile and Jew, and you are denying Pauls doctrine of the one new man, according to which the saints, both Gentile and Jew, are one group, not two. By excluding the Gentiles believers, you divide this one new man into two men, and you include only one of the two.
According to the Old Covenant, Israel includes all Israelites and excludes all Gentiles, and Gentiles and Jews are divided into two separate groups. In contrast, according to the New Covenant, Israel (New Covenant Israel) includes all believers in Christ and excludes all unbelievers, and Gentiles and Jews are united into one new man in Christ, one group, not two.
On the one hand, you allow this Israel in Romans 9:6-8 NOT to be subject to the Old Covenant thinking in order to allow Jewish unbelievers to be excluded from this Israel, but at the same time, you reverse yourself and impose on this Israel Old Covenant thinking both in regard to the identity of the citizens of Israel as all Israelites and in regard to the division of Gentile and Jew into two separate groups in order to exclude Gentiles believers from this Israel. Thus, in your employment of this double think in order to get the conclusion that you want, yes, youre being dishonest.
If you were being honest, you would admit that the Gentile believers are included in this saved Israel in Romans 9:6-8 for the same reason that the Jewish unbelievers are excluded from it, this reason being that citizenship in this saved Israel is based, not on being an Israelite or on doing the law of Mosesas Paul says in 9:8, the children of the flesh are not this Israelbut on belief in Christ.
But you cant be honest, because if you were honest, you would have to give up your dispensational theology, and we both know that youre not going to do that.
Jim
holdon:
Now, where do you see gentiles in this portion of Scripture???? Nowhere. Are you a descendant of Isaac? Are you a descendant of Jacob? (vs. 10 - 13). Are you of the people of Israel, under Moses? (vs. 15). No gentile was part of those promises.
Jim:
Throughout the first 8 chapters, Paul had already identified the ones who are being saved. They are the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew. He had already identified the children of the promise as us (all the saints, both Gentile and Jew) in 4:13-16 (4:16). He had already identified the children of God as we (all the saints, both Gentile and Jew) in 8:14-18 (8:16).
Then, in 9:1-5, Paul laments that most Israelites are not participating in this salvation in which all the saints, both Gentile and Jew, are participating.
Then, in 9:6-8, Paul states that this failure of most Israelites to participate in this salvation in which all the saints, both Gentile and Jew, are participating is not a failure of Gods word, and he explain why. His explanation is that these unbelieving Israelites are NOT Israel. Theyre not the Israel that is being saved. Who is this Israel that is being saved? The saints are the ones being saved, this Israel, both Gentile and Jew, as Paul had already explained throughout the first 8 chapters. In describing the citizens of this saved Israel, Paul even uses the same terminology (the children of the promise and the children of God) that he had already applied to the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew, in 4:13-16 (4:16) and 8:14-18 (8:16).
So, yes, youre being dishonest in excluding Gentile believers from the citizenship of this saved Israel in 9:6-8. You are denying Pauls plain identification of the citizens of this saved Israel as the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew. By excluding Gentile believers from this saved Israel, you are denying Pauls own definition of the children of the promise / the children of God, whom he defines as all the saints, both Gentile and Jew, and you are denying Pauls doctrine of the one new man, according to which the saints, both Gentile and Jew, are one group, not two. By excluding the Gentiles believers, you divide this one new man into two men, and you include only one of the two.
According to the Old Covenant, Israel includes all Israelites and excludes all Gentiles, and Gentiles and Jews are divided into two separate groups. In contrast, according to the New Covenant, Israel (New Covenant Israel) includes all believers in Christ and excludes all unbelievers, and Gentiles and Jews are united into one new man in Christ, one group, not two.
On the one hand, you allow this Israel in Romans 9:6-8 NOT to be subject to the Old Covenant thinking in order to allow Jewish unbelievers to be excluded from this Israel, but at the same time, you reverse yourself and impose on this Israel Old Covenant thinking both in regard to the identity of the citizens of Israel as all Israelites and in regard to the division of Gentile and Jew into two separate groups in order to exclude Gentiles believers from this Israel. Thus, in your employment of this double think in order to get the conclusion that you want, yes, youre being dishonest.
If you were being honest, you would admit that the Gentile believers are included in this saved Israel in Romans 9:6-8 for the same reason that the Jewish unbelievers are excluded from it, this reason being that citizenship in this saved Israel is based, not on being an Israelite or on doing the law of Mosesas Paul says in 9:8, the children of the flesh are not this Israelbut on belief in Christ.
But you cant be honest, because if you were honest, you would have to give up your dispensational theology, and we both know that youre not going to do that.
Jim
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I have no business with people that feel the need to continually alter the Scripture to contrive their own theological views.
In Romans 9:1-8 there is no talk whatsoever about Gentiles: deal with it, instead of longwinded twists to impose your view on those texts.
In Eph. 2 and 3 there is no talk whatsoever about the new thing being a continuation of Israel in any way shape or form. Again: deal with it.
In Romans 11 there is talk about Israel, their current state of the majority having rejected Christ and therefore having been broken off as natural branches, although a remnant is being saved even in the current dispensation. There is also talk about gentiles being brought into the olive tree, which is not Israel because they are pictured as the branches.
And in the end it is said that all Israel shall be saved: that is the natural branches that are broken off shall be grafted back in. That Israel is contradistinguished from the Gentiles by the way, so that you conjecture of that Israel including the gentiles is all baloney.
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Hi holdon,
holdon:
In Romans 11 there is talk about ISRAEL, their current state of THE MAJORITY having rejected Christ and therefore HAVING BEEN BROKEN OFF as natural branches, although A REMNANT IS BEING SAVED even in the current dispensation. There is also talk about GENTILES BEING BROUGHT INTO THE OLIVE TREE, which is NOT ISRAEL BECAUSE THEY ARE PICTURED AS THE BRANCHES.
Jim:
If being pictured as unbelieving branches does not prevent Jewish unbelievers from being the citizens of the unbelieving part of Israel, and if being pictured as believing branches does not prevent Jewish believers from being the citizens of the believing part of Israel, then being pictured as fellow believing branches that are fellow partakers of the Root does not prevent Gentile believers from being the Jewish believers’ fellow citizens (one new man) of the believing part of Israel.
holdon:
And in the end it is said that all Israel shall be saved: that is the natural branches that are broken off shall be grafted back in. That Israel is contradistinguished from the Gentiles by the way, so that you conjecture of that Israel including the gentiles is all baloney.
Jim:
You are redefining Israel from being both parts of Israel in Romans 11:25 to being only one of these two parts of Israel in 11:26. Contextually, all Israel in 11:26 has to refer to both parts of Israel in 11:25. That’s everyone being saved from the cross until the second advent.
As Paul states, part of Israel does not believe in Christ until the fullness of the Gentiles enters, thus joining with the Jewish believers as fellow citizens (one new man) of the believing part of Israel (as fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree), at which point the part of Israel that had not believed in Him will likewise believe in Him and will likewise enter, thus joining with the preceding believers (both Gentile and Jew) as fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel (as fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree), at which point all Israel (both parts of Israel) will have been saved by believing in Christ, at which point Israel’s transition to the New Covenant will be complete.
The citation of Isaiah 59:20 in 11:26b is altered to emphasize Christ’s first advent as the basis for all Israel (both parts of Israel) being saved from the cross until the second advent. Paul changes the preposition “eneken” (on behalf of) in the LXX to “ek” (out of) in his citation of Isaiah 59:20.
Just as Christ coming “out of (ek)” the seed of David in Romans 1:3 is a reference to His first advent, and just as Christ coming “out of (ex [ek])” the Israelites in 9:5 is a reference to His first advent, likewise Christ coming “out of (ek)” Zion in the altered citation of Isaiah 59:20 in 11:26b is a reference to His first advent as the basis for all Israel in 11:26 (both parts of Israel in 11:25) being saved from the cross until the second advent.
It is in His first advent, at the cross, that Christ turns away ungodlinesses from Jacob in Paul’s altered citation of Isaiah 59:20 in Romans 11:26b. Likewise, it is in His first advent, at the cross, that Christ initiates God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel and takes away sin in Paul’s very loose combined citation of Isaiah 59:21 and the Jeremiah prophecy in Romans 11:27. It is what Christ accomplished on the cross in His first advent that is the basis for all Israel in Romans 11:26 (both parts of Israel in 11:25) being saved by believing in Christ from the cross to the second advent.
Jim
holdon:
In Romans 11 there is talk about ISRAEL, their current state of THE MAJORITY having rejected Christ and therefore HAVING BEEN BROKEN OFF as natural branches, although A REMNANT IS BEING SAVED even in the current dispensation. There is also talk about GENTILES BEING BROUGHT INTO THE OLIVE TREE, which is NOT ISRAEL BECAUSE THEY ARE PICTURED AS THE BRANCHES.
Jim:
If being pictured as unbelieving branches does not prevent Jewish unbelievers from being the citizens of the unbelieving part of Israel, and if being pictured as believing branches does not prevent Jewish believers from being the citizens of the believing part of Israel, then being pictured as fellow believing branches that are fellow partakers of the Root does not prevent Gentile believers from being the Jewish believers’ fellow citizens (one new man) of the believing part of Israel.
holdon:
And in the end it is said that all Israel shall be saved: that is the natural branches that are broken off shall be grafted back in. That Israel is contradistinguished from the Gentiles by the way, so that you conjecture of that Israel including the gentiles is all baloney.
Jim:
You are redefining Israel from being both parts of Israel in Romans 11:25 to being only one of these two parts of Israel in 11:26. Contextually, all Israel in 11:26 has to refer to both parts of Israel in 11:25. That’s everyone being saved from the cross until the second advent.
As Paul states, part of Israel does not believe in Christ until the fullness of the Gentiles enters, thus joining with the Jewish believers as fellow citizens (one new man) of the believing part of Israel (as fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree), at which point the part of Israel that had not believed in Him will likewise believe in Him and will likewise enter, thus joining with the preceding believers (both Gentile and Jew) as fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel (as fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree), at which point all Israel (both parts of Israel) will have been saved by believing in Christ, at which point Israel’s transition to the New Covenant will be complete.
The citation of Isaiah 59:20 in 11:26b is altered to emphasize Christ’s first advent as the basis for all Israel (both parts of Israel) being saved from the cross until the second advent. Paul changes the preposition “eneken” (on behalf of) in the LXX to “ek” (out of) in his citation of Isaiah 59:20.
Just as Christ coming “out of (ek)” the seed of David in Romans 1:3 is a reference to His first advent, and just as Christ coming “out of (ex [ek])” the Israelites in 9:5 is a reference to His first advent, likewise Christ coming “out of (ek)” Zion in the altered citation of Isaiah 59:20 in 11:26b is a reference to His first advent as the basis for all Israel in 11:26 (both parts of Israel in 11:25) being saved from the cross until the second advent.
It is in His first advent, at the cross, that Christ turns away ungodlinesses from Jacob in Paul’s altered citation of Isaiah 59:20 in Romans 11:26b. Likewise, it is in His first advent, at the cross, that Christ initiates God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel and takes away sin in Paul’s very loose combined citation of Isaiah 59:21 and the Jeremiah prophecy in Romans 11:27. It is what Christ accomplished on the cross in His first advent that is the basis for all Israel in Romans 11:26 (both parts of Israel in 11:25) being saved by believing in Christ from the cross to the second advent.
Jim
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You got it almost right, except the last sentence: the one new man is NOT part of Israel. Some are in the one new man are part of Israel: the Israel of God: believing Jews. But the one new man as such is not part of Israel.
??? You are a poor reader. Blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fulness of the gentiles is come in and SO SHALL all Israel be saved. This the establishment of the New Covenant (vs27) with Israel when the deliverer shall have come out of Zion and turn away the ungodliness of Jacob. Clearly then, this is after the second advent....
They have NOT NOW believed, but then they shall. (vs 31).
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Hi holdon,
holdon:
You got it almost right, except the last sentence: the one new man is NOT part of Israel. Some are in the one new man are part of Israel: the Israel of God: believing Jews. But the one new man as such is not part of Israel.
Jim:
In other words, the one new man is not one new man but two men, only one of which is a citizen of the believing part of Israel. No, I don’t see how that’s “right.”
The believing foreign branches are grouped together in one group with their fellow believing natural branches, all of them being fellow partakers of the same holy Root, and yet, according to you, only the believing natural branches are the citizens of the believing part of Israel.
If being a believing branch partaking of the holy Root makes one a citizen of the believing part of Israel, then all of the fellow believing branches who are fellow partakers of the holy Root have to be fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel.
But you say no. Why? Because you don’t want it be so. That’s why. It’s that simple.
holdon:
You are a poor reader. Blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fulness of the gentiles is come in and SO SHALL all Israel be saved.
Jim:
Only part of Israel is saved until the Gentiles have entered (into the saved part of Israel as fellow citizens of the saved, New Covenant part of Israel).
Then the other part of Israel, the part that had not believed in Christ, will likewise believe in Him and will likewise enter into the saved part of Israel as fellow citizens of the saved, New Covenant part of Israel.
It is in this manner, in this stated sequence, that all Israel, that is, both parts of Israel, is to be saved by believing in Christ.
You are redefining all Israel from being both parts of Israel in 11:25 to being only one of the two parts of Israel in 11:26 without any basis for doing so in the text. Your sole basis for doing so is your incorrect dispensational theology.
holdon:
This the establishment of the New Covenant (vs27) with Israel when the deliverer shall have come out of Zion and turn away the ungodliness of Jacob. Clearly then, this is after the second advent....
Jim:
Christ already came out Zion in His first advent (11:26). He came out of the seed of David (1:13). He came out of the Israelites (9:5). He came out of Zion (11:26) to go to the cross to turn ungodlinesses away from Jacob (11:26) and to begin God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel by shedding the Blood of the New Covenant on the cross to remove sin (11:27). This, what Christ accomplished on the cross in his first advent, in which He came out of Zion, is the basis for the salvation of all Israel, that is, both parts of Israel, both the part that has thus far believed and the part that will believe, from the cross until the second advent.
All Israel means both parts of Israel, both the part that has thus far believed and the part that will believe.
Only part of Israel will have been saved until the Gentiles will have entered (into the saved part of Israel as fellow citizens of the saved, New Covenant part of Israel), at which point the other part of Israel will likewise be saved, at which point all Israel (both parts of Israel) will have been saved. This is a process that began at the cross and which will continue until the second advent.
Your incorrect interpretation of 11:26 is completely removed from the context of 11:25. You’ve taken 11:26 out of its context and you’ve given it the meaning that you want it to have.
Jim
holdon:
You got it almost right, except the last sentence: the one new man is NOT part of Israel. Some are in the one new man are part of Israel: the Israel of God: believing Jews. But the one new man as such is not part of Israel.
Jim:
In other words, the one new man is not one new man but two men, only one of which is a citizen of the believing part of Israel. No, I don’t see how that’s “right.”
The believing foreign branches are grouped together in one group with their fellow believing natural branches, all of them being fellow partakers of the same holy Root, and yet, according to you, only the believing natural branches are the citizens of the believing part of Israel.
If being a believing branch partaking of the holy Root makes one a citizen of the believing part of Israel, then all of the fellow believing branches who are fellow partakers of the holy Root have to be fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel.
But you say no. Why? Because you don’t want it be so. That’s why. It’s that simple.
holdon:
You are a poor reader. Blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fulness of the gentiles is come in and SO SHALL all Israel be saved.
Jim:
Only part of Israel is saved until the Gentiles have entered (into the saved part of Israel as fellow citizens of the saved, New Covenant part of Israel).
Then the other part of Israel, the part that had not believed in Christ, will likewise believe in Him and will likewise enter into the saved part of Israel as fellow citizens of the saved, New Covenant part of Israel.
It is in this manner, in this stated sequence, that all Israel, that is, both parts of Israel, is to be saved by believing in Christ.
You are redefining all Israel from being both parts of Israel in 11:25 to being only one of the two parts of Israel in 11:26 without any basis for doing so in the text. Your sole basis for doing so is your incorrect dispensational theology.
holdon:
This the establishment of the New Covenant (vs27) with Israel when the deliverer shall have come out of Zion and turn away the ungodliness of Jacob. Clearly then, this is after the second advent....
Jim:
Christ already came out Zion in His first advent (11:26). He came out of the seed of David (1:13). He came out of the Israelites (9:5). He came out of Zion (11:26) to go to the cross to turn ungodlinesses away from Jacob (11:26) and to begin God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel by shedding the Blood of the New Covenant on the cross to remove sin (11:27). This, what Christ accomplished on the cross in his first advent, in which He came out of Zion, is the basis for the salvation of all Israel, that is, both parts of Israel, both the part that has thus far believed and the part that will believe, from the cross until the second advent.
All Israel means both parts of Israel, both the part that has thus far believed and the part that will believe.
Only part of Israel will have been saved until the Gentiles will have entered (into the saved part of Israel as fellow citizens of the saved, New Covenant part of Israel), at which point the other part of Israel will likewise be saved, at which point all Israel (both parts of Israel) will have been saved. This is a process that began at the cross and which will continue until the second advent.
Your incorrect interpretation of 11:26 is completely removed from the context of 11:25. You’ve taken 11:26 out of its context and you’ve given it the meaning that you want it to have.
Jim
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??? Once again, I fail to see your logic. The one new man includes Christ believing Jews and Gentiles: it is also called the body of Christ: the Church.(=assembly)
That's what you get when you confuse/mix two allegories. The believing natural branches are Israelites (that's what "natural" means). But those believing natural branches, that are still on the root, are not ALL Israel, they are only a remnant. Being on the root doesn't make the foreign branches Israelites: they are still Gentiles: ("fulness of the Gentiles".)
But the root is NOT Israel.
Here is the text:
11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, that ye may not be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the nations be come in;
11:26and so all Israel shall be saved. According as it is written, The deliverer shall come out of Zion; he shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
So, what does it say:
1. blindness in part is happened to Israel. Therefore Israel is divided into "those that see" and "those that are blind"; "believers" and "unbelievers".
2. The blindness will not last: it is until.... and so ALL Israel shall be saved.
3. This will happen when the fulness of the Gentiles shall have come into the olive tree: =shall have become believers.
4. Then the ungodliness of Jacob shall be turned away by the means of a deliverer coming out of Zion. This is Christ restoring all Israel in fellowship with God.
They (the unbelieving Israelites) are enemies now ("on your account" vs 28): the believing Gentiles are grafted into the tree in the mean time.
If vs 26 has already happened as you say, then ALL Israel would believe right now, which is clearly NOT the case.
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Hi holdon,
holdon:
The believing natural branches are Israelites (that's what "natural" means). But those believing natural branches, that are still on the root, are not ALL Israel, they are only a remnant. Being on the root doesn't make the foreign branches Israelites: they are still Gentiles: ("fulness of the Gentiles".)
Jim:
At least here you admit that all Israel refers to both parts of the tree, both parts of Israel, both the part of Israel has already believed and the part of Israel that has not yet believed, which is what Paul says in 11:26. He says that it is in this manner (outwV), in the manner just described in 11:16-24 / 11:25, in this stated sequence, that all Israel (both the part of Israel that has already believed and the part of Israel that will believe after the fullness of the Gentiles has entered) will have come to believe in Christ and be saved.
Paul uses outwV (in this manner) three times in Romans 11:
(ASV) Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. 5 (IN THIS MANNER [OUTWV] / IN THE MANNER JUST DESCRIBED IN 11:4) then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(ASV) Romans 11:25 ... a hardening in part hath befallen Israel (part of Israel believes and is saved and part of Israel does not believe and is not saved), until the fulness of the Gentiles (enters.) 26 And (IN THIS MANNER [OUTWV] / IN THE MANNER JUST DESCRIBED IN 11:25, PART OF ISRAEL BEING SAVED WHILE THE GENTILES ARE ENTERING, AFTER WHICH THE OTHER PART OF ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED) all Israel (BOTH PARTS OF ISRAEL, AS DESCRIBED IN 11:25) shall be saved .... (This describes a salvation of Israel [both parts of Israel] that begins at the cross and which continues until the second advent.)
(ASV) Romans 11:30 For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but NOW HAVE OBTAINED MERCY BY THEIR DISOBEDIENCE, 31 (IN THIS MANNER [OUTWV] / IN THE MANNER JUST DESCRIBED IN 11:30 [ONE GROUP RECEIVING MERCY IN RESPONSE TO WHAT HAPPENS TO THE OTHER GROUP]) also have these also now been disobedient, that BY THE MERCY SHOWN TO YOU THEY ALSO MAY NOW OBTAIN MERCY. 32 For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
In all three verses, outwV (in this manner) refers to what is expressed in the preceding verse as the manner in which what is expressed in the current verse occurs.
In 11:5, there is a believing remnant in the manner described in 11:4, where God reserves 7,000.
In 11:26, all Israel is saved in the manner described in 11:25, where part of Israel is saved while the Gentiles are entering, after which the other part of Israel is saved, all Israel thus referring to both parts of Israel, all Israel (both parts of Israel) thus being saved in a process that begins at the cross and which continues until the second advent.
In 11:31, the part of Israel that had not yet received mercy will receive mercy in response to what had happened to the Gentiles, just as (in this manner) that the Gentiles will have received mercy in response to what had happened to part of Israel in 11:30.
Jim
holdon:
The believing natural branches are Israelites (that's what "natural" means). But those believing natural branches, that are still on the root, are not ALL Israel, they are only a remnant. Being on the root doesn't make the foreign branches Israelites: they are still Gentiles: ("fulness of the Gentiles".)
Jim:
At least here you admit that all Israel refers to both parts of the tree, both parts of Israel, both the part of Israel has already believed and the part of Israel that has not yet believed, which is what Paul says in 11:26. He says that it is in this manner (outwV), in the manner just described in 11:16-24 / 11:25, in this stated sequence, that all Israel (both the part of Israel that has already believed and the part of Israel that will believe after the fullness of the Gentiles has entered) will have come to believe in Christ and be saved.
Paul uses outwV (in this manner) three times in Romans 11:
(ASV) Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal. 5 (IN THIS MANNER [OUTWV] / IN THE MANNER JUST DESCRIBED IN 11:4) then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(ASV) Romans 11:25 ... a hardening in part hath befallen Israel (part of Israel believes and is saved and part of Israel does not believe and is not saved), until the fulness of the Gentiles (enters.) 26 And (IN THIS MANNER [OUTWV] / IN THE MANNER JUST DESCRIBED IN 11:25, PART OF ISRAEL BEING SAVED WHILE THE GENTILES ARE ENTERING, AFTER WHICH THE OTHER PART OF ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED) all Israel (BOTH PARTS OF ISRAEL, AS DESCRIBED IN 11:25) shall be saved .... (This describes a salvation of Israel [both parts of Israel] that begins at the cross and which continues until the second advent.)
(ASV) Romans 11:30 For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but NOW HAVE OBTAINED MERCY BY THEIR DISOBEDIENCE, 31 (IN THIS MANNER [OUTWV] / IN THE MANNER JUST DESCRIBED IN 11:30 [ONE GROUP RECEIVING MERCY IN RESPONSE TO WHAT HAPPENS TO THE OTHER GROUP]) also have these also now been disobedient, that BY THE MERCY SHOWN TO YOU THEY ALSO MAY NOW OBTAIN MERCY. 32 For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
In all three verses, outwV (in this manner) refers to what is expressed in the preceding verse as the manner in which what is expressed in the current verse occurs.
In 11:5, there is a believing remnant in the manner described in 11:4, where God reserves 7,000.
In 11:26, all Israel is saved in the manner described in 11:25, where part of Israel is saved while the Gentiles are entering, after which the other part of Israel is saved, all Israel thus referring to both parts of Israel, all Israel (both parts of Israel) thus being saved in a process that begins at the cross and which continues until the second advent.
In 11:31, the part of Israel that had not yet received mercy will receive mercy in response to what had happened to the Gentiles, just as (in this manner) that the Gentiles will have received mercy in response to what had happened to part of Israel in 11:30.
Jim
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Hi holdon,
holdon:
The one new man includes Christ believing Jews and Gentiles: it is also called the body of Christ: the Church.
Jim:
Yes, one indivisible group (all believers), all the believing branches, all of whom partake of the holy Root, all of whom comprise the believing part of the tree, all of whom comprise the believing part of Israel as one indivisible group, namely us/we, as in Romans 4:16 and 8:16 and 9:8 and 9:24.
holdon:
But the root is NOT Israel.
Jim:
The tree is Israel, and the unbelieving, broken-off branches (the unbelieving part of the tree) are the unbelieving part of Israel, and the believing, non-broken-off branches are the believing part of Israel, and the fellow believing foreign branches in the believing part of the tree are the Gentile fellow citizens in the believing part of Israel, and the holy Root of the believing part of the tree is Christ, just as He is the Cornerstone of builders building and the Head of the body.
holdon:
If vs. 26 has already happened as you say, then ALL Israel would believe right now, which is clearly NOT the case.
Jim:
I never said that. Where did you get that?
OutwV (in this manner) makes what is said in 11:26 dependent on what is said in 11:25, just as this word makes what is said in 11:5 dependent on what is said in 11:4, and just as this word makes what is said in 11:31 dependent on what is said in 11:30. I explained this in my previous message.
All Israel in 11:26 has to refer to both parts of Israel in 11:25, because outwV (in this manner) in 11:26 makes what is said in 11:26 dependent on what is said in 11:25, where Paul describes two parts of Israel, a part that has already believed and a part that will not believe until after the fullness of the Gentiles has entered. Thus, all Israel being saved in 11:26 has to refer to both the part of Israel that has already been saved and to the part of Israel that will be saved after the Gentiles have entered; all Israel has to refer to both parts of Israel, which describes a process of all Israel (both parts of Israel) being saved, a process that begins at the cross and which continues until the second advent.
Jim
holdon:
The one new man includes Christ believing Jews and Gentiles: it is also called the body of Christ: the Church.
Jim:
Yes, one indivisible group (all believers), all the believing branches, all of whom partake of the holy Root, all of whom comprise the believing part of the tree, all of whom comprise the believing part of Israel as one indivisible group, namely us/we, as in Romans 4:16 and 8:16 and 9:8 and 9:24.
holdon:
But the root is NOT Israel.
Jim:
The tree is Israel, and the unbelieving, broken-off branches (the unbelieving part of the tree) are the unbelieving part of Israel, and the believing, non-broken-off branches are the believing part of Israel, and the fellow believing foreign branches in the believing part of the tree are the Gentile fellow citizens in the believing part of Israel, and the holy Root of the believing part of the tree is Christ, just as He is the Cornerstone of builders building and the Head of the body.
holdon:
If vs. 26 has already happened as you say, then ALL Israel would believe right now, which is clearly NOT the case.
Jim:
I never said that. Where did you get that?
OutwV (in this manner) makes what is said in 11:26 dependent on what is said in 11:25, just as this word makes what is said in 11:5 dependent on what is said in 11:4, and just as this word makes what is said in 11:31 dependent on what is said in 11:30. I explained this in my previous message.
All Israel in 11:26 has to refer to both parts of Israel in 11:25, because outwV (in this manner) in 11:26 makes what is said in 11:26 dependent on what is said in 11:25, where Paul describes two parts of Israel, a part that has already believed and a part that will not believe until after the fullness of the Gentiles has entered. Thus, all Israel being saved in 11:26 has to refer to both the part of Israel that has already been saved and to the part of Israel that will be saved after the Gentiles have entered; all Israel has to refer to both parts of Israel, which describes a process of all Israel (both parts of Israel) being saved, a process that begins at the cross and which continues until the second advent.
Jim
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Not: both parts of the tree: anyone who is on the tree, stands their by faith. It is the tree of promise to faith like Abraham. So, only those of Israel that are on the tree, are believers. The rest have been broken off, which is the subject of Paul in chapters 9 thru 11.
Not: will have come, but "SHALL" be saved. It is future.
No, the unbelieving part are enemies, UNTIL, (they are NOT NOW believers), then SHALL the deliverer come out of Zion, and SO SHALL ALL Israel be saved.
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It seems you're not very familiar with the New Covenant, which God will make in grace and unconditionally with the houses of Israel and Judah, giving them new hearts and restoring them back into their land. This is all yet to come. He will come to Zion (and thus can come out of Zion in Rm 11:26), sit on David's throne, which is His' as Son of David, and have the scattered brought back into their land, giving them new hearts, etc. This is the New Covenant. It is yet to come.
Romans 11:26 confirms exactly that: ALL Israel shall be saved, when the deliverer shall come out of Zion, when God onesidedly shall do save and restore Israel. For now, it is blindness in part, unbelief, but then: pay attention to the words: UNTIL, WHEN, SHALL, NOT NOW, etc, etc.. It is a future thing....
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Hi holdon,
holdon:
Not: both parts of the tree: anyone who is on the tree, stands their by faith. It is the tree of promise to faith like Abraham. So, only those of Israel that are on the tree, are believers. The rest have been broken off, which is the subject of Paul in chapters 9 thru 11.
Jim:
You still admitted that all Israel is both parts of Israel. You said that the believing part is not all Israel, implying that all Israel is BOTH the believing part and the unbelieving part. It is in the context of all Israel being both parts of Israel in 11:16-24 / 11:25 that all Israel is saved in 11:26, part now and the other part later.
As for the broken-off branches, theyre the unbelieving, broken-off part of the tree.
If lightning hit a tree and knocked three-fourths of the branches to the ground, it would not be incorrect to say that most of the tree was now lying on the ground. They may be broken off, but theyre still the trees branches, albeit broken off, and the tree continues to be the broken-off branches tree. As Paul states in Romans 11:24, its the broken-off branches own tree from which they had been broken off and into which they will subsequently be engrafted, and branches are a part of a tree, whether they remain connected to the Root or whether they're broken off.
Jim
holdon:
Not: both parts of the tree: anyone who is on the tree, stands their by faith. It is the tree of promise to faith like Abraham. So, only those of Israel that are on the tree, are believers. The rest have been broken off, which is the subject of Paul in chapters 9 thru 11.
Jim:
You still admitted that all Israel is both parts of Israel. You said that the believing part is not all Israel, implying that all Israel is BOTH the believing part and the unbelieving part. It is in the context of all Israel being both parts of Israel in 11:16-24 / 11:25 that all Israel is saved in 11:26, part now and the other part later.
As for the broken-off branches, theyre the unbelieving, broken-off part of the tree.
If lightning hit a tree and knocked three-fourths of the branches to the ground, it would not be incorrect to say that most of the tree was now lying on the ground. They may be broken off, but theyre still the trees branches, albeit broken off, and the tree continues to be the broken-off branches tree. As Paul states in Romans 11:24, its the broken-off branches own tree from which they had been broken off and into which they will subsequently be engrafted, and branches are a part of a tree, whether they remain connected to the Root or whether they're broken off.
Jim
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Yes.
Yes.
That is correct.
That is true also.
Sure, branches are olive branches. That does not make them the trunk or root, but like Paul says: Israel are the natural branches: descendents from Abraham.
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Hi holdon,
holdon:
Sure, branches are olive branches. That does not make them the trunk or root, but like Paul says: Israel are the natural branches: descendents from Abraham.
Jim:
Paul says that the believing foreign branches (Gentile believers) are engrafted among the believing natural branches (Jewish believers) as fellow believing branches (fellow believers in Christ) and as fellow partakers of the holy Root (Christ). The fellow believing branches are one group. Their current status is the same; theyre all believing branches, and theyre all grouped together, and theyre all partaking of the same holy Root, just as if they were all the same branches, the only difference being that the believing foreign branches were engrafted in order to accomplish this, whereas the believing natural branches were there all along. Thus, all the believing branches are now fellow citizens of the same thing. The believing natural branches (Jewish believers) are the citizens of the believing part of Israel, and now that theyve been engrafted, so are the believing foreign branches; theyre all fellow citizens of the same thing (the believing part of Israel).
The same three groups of people are in view both in the analogy in 11:16-24 and in the statement in 11:25: (1) Jewish unbelievers, (2) Jewish believers and (3) Gentile believers.
In the analogy in 11:16-24, part of the tree (Jewish unbelievers) does not believe in Christ and is broken off from the believing part of the tree UNTIL the believing foreign branches (Gentile believers) are engrafted among the believing natural branches (Jewish believers) as fellow believing branches (fellow believers in Christ) and fellow partakers of the holy Root (Christ) in the believing part of the tree.
In the statement in 11:25, in the context of the analogy in 11:16-24, part of Israel (Jewish unbelievers) does not believe in Christ and is excluded/removed from the believing part of Israel (Jewish believers), resulting in two different parts of Israel (two different groups)these two different parts of Israel (two different groups) are the two different Israels in 9:6-8 (the believing part of Israel) and in 9:31-32/11:7-11 (the unbelieving part of Israel)UNTIL the Gentiles (Gentile believers) enter.
In the context of the analogy in 11:16-24, into what do the Gentile believers enter in the statement in 11:25? They enter into the same thing from which the Jewish unbelievers had been excluded/removed because of their unbelief toward Christ, which is the same thing into which the Jewish unbelievers will later likewise enter (re-enter) once they finally believe in Christ: fellow citizenship in the believing part of Israel.
The very thing into which the Jewish unbelievers will one day enter once they finally believe in Christ is the same thing into which the Gentile believers are now entering by believing in Christ, which is the very thing from which the Jewish unbelievers were excluded/removed by their unbelief toward Christ: fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers in the believing part of Israel.
Thus, in the statement in 11:25, which is understood in the context of the analogy in 11:16-24, we see Jewish unbelievers as the citizens of the unbelieving part of Israel (the Israel in 9:31-32/11:7-11), and we see both Jewish believers and Gentile believers as fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel (the Israel in 9:6-8).
This is consistent with the fact that Paul identifies the citizens of the Israel in 9:6-8 (the believing part of Israel in 11:25, which is analogized as the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24) as the children of the promise / the children of God, whom he had previously identified in 4:13-16/8:14-18 as all believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, namely us/we.
It is we (all believers in Christ) who are the fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24, and it is we (all believers in Christ) who are the fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel in 11:25, and it is we (all believers in Christ) who are the fellow citizens of the believing Israel in 9:6-8 (the fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel in 11:25 / the fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24 / the children of the promise in 4:13-16 / the children of God in 8:14-18).
It is in the context of the believing Israel in 9:6-8 (us [all believers in Christ]) receiving what the unbelieving Israel in 9:31-32/11:7-11 is not receiving that the believing Gentiles in 9:30 are receiving what the unbelieving Israel in 9:31-32/11:7-11 is not receiving. The Gentile believers in 9:30 are included in the "us" in 9:6-8, which is the "us" in 4:13-16 and the "we" in 8:14-18 and the "us" in 9:22-24.
Jim
holdon:
Sure, branches are olive branches. That does not make them the trunk or root, but like Paul says: Israel are the natural branches: descendents from Abraham.
Jim:
Paul says that the believing foreign branches (Gentile believers) are engrafted among the believing natural branches (Jewish believers) as fellow believing branches (fellow believers in Christ) and as fellow partakers of the holy Root (Christ). The fellow believing branches are one group. Their current status is the same; theyre all believing branches, and theyre all grouped together, and theyre all partaking of the same holy Root, just as if they were all the same branches, the only difference being that the believing foreign branches were engrafted in order to accomplish this, whereas the believing natural branches were there all along. Thus, all the believing branches are now fellow citizens of the same thing. The believing natural branches (Jewish believers) are the citizens of the believing part of Israel, and now that theyve been engrafted, so are the believing foreign branches; theyre all fellow citizens of the same thing (the believing part of Israel).
The same three groups of people are in view both in the analogy in 11:16-24 and in the statement in 11:25: (1) Jewish unbelievers, (2) Jewish believers and (3) Gentile believers.
In the analogy in 11:16-24, part of the tree (Jewish unbelievers) does not believe in Christ and is broken off from the believing part of the tree UNTIL the believing foreign branches (Gentile believers) are engrafted among the believing natural branches (Jewish believers) as fellow believing branches (fellow believers in Christ) and fellow partakers of the holy Root (Christ) in the believing part of the tree.
In the statement in 11:25, in the context of the analogy in 11:16-24, part of Israel (Jewish unbelievers) does not believe in Christ and is excluded/removed from the believing part of Israel (Jewish believers), resulting in two different parts of Israel (two different groups)these two different parts of Israel (two different groups) are the two different Israels in 9:6-8 (the believing part of Israel) and in 9:31-32/11:7-11 (the unbelieving part of Israel)UNTIL the Gentiles (Gentile believers) enter.
In the context of the analogy in 11:16-24, into what do the Gentile believers enter in the statement in 11:25? They enter into the same thing from which the Jewish unbelievers had been excluded/removed because of their unbelief toward Christ, which is the same thing into which the Jewish unbelievers will later likewise enter (re-enter) once they finally believe in Christ: fellow citizenship in the believing part of Israel.
The very thing into which the Jewish unbelievers will one day enter once they finally believe in Christ is the same thing into which the Gentile believers are now entering by believing in Christ, which is the very thing from which the Jewish unbelievers were excluded/removed by their unbelief toward Christ: fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers in the believing part of Israel.
Thus, in the statement in 11:25, which is understood in the context of the analogy in 11:16-24, we see Jewish unbelievers as the citizens of the unbelieving part of Israel (the Israel in 9:31-32/11:7-11), and we see both Jewish believers and Gentile believers as fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel (the Israel in 9:6-8).
This is consistent with the fact that Paul identifies the citizens of the Israel in 9:6-8 (the believing part of Israel in 11:25, which is analogized as the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24) as the children of the promise / the children of God, whom he had previously identified in 4:13-16/8:14-18 as all believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, namely us/we.
It is we (all believers in Christ) who are the fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24, and it is we (all believers in Christ) who are the fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel in 11:25, and it is we (all believers in Christ) who are the fellow citizens of the believing Israel in 9:6-8 (the fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel in 11:25 / the fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24 / the children of the promise in 4:13-16 / the children of God in 8:14-18).
It is in the context of the believing Israel in 9:6-8 (us [all believers in Christ]) receiving what the unbelieving Israel in 9:31-32/11:7-11 is not receiving that the believing Gentiles in 9:30 are receiving what the unbelieving Israel in 9:31-32/11:7-11 is not receiving. The Gentile believers in 9:30 are included in the "us" in 9:6-8, which is the "us" in 4:13-16 and the "we" in 8:14-18 and the "us" in 9:22-24.
Jim
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When anyone believes, he is grafted onto the tree. He doesn't become an Israelite: he becomes a branch of the tree. Simple. Those that are on the tree through are nourished by the fatness of the tree: the promises. However, it is possible to be cut off from those, if one does not abide in the faith: the tree. The tree is not Israel (they are the natural branches, whether attache to the tree or not), nor is it the body of Christ: none could be cut off from that.
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Hi holdon,
holdon:
When anyone believes, he is grafted onto the tree. He doesn't become an Israelite: he becomes a branch of the tree. Simple. Those that are on the tree through are nourished by the fatness of the tree: the promises. However, it is possible to be cut off from those, if one does not abide in the faith: the tree. The tree is not Israel (they are the natural branches, whether attached to the tree or not), nor is it the body of Christ: none could be cut off from that.
Peter and Paul:
(ASV) Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. 14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, 15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 17 And now, brethren, I know that in ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But the things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled. ... 22 Moses indeed said, A PROPHET SHALL THE LORD GOD RAISE UP UNTO YOU FROM AMONG (OUT OF / EK) YOUR BRETHREN, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you. 23 And it shall be, that EVERY SOUL THAT SHALL NOT HEARKEN TO THAT PROPHET, SHALL BE UTTERLY DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE. ... 26 UNTO YOU FIRST GOD, HAVING RAISED UP HIS SERVANT, SENT HIM TO BLESS YOU, IN TURNING AWAY EVERY ONE OF YOU FROM YOUR INIQUITIES.
(ASV) Romans 11:16 ... if the Root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if SOME OF THE BRANCHES WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the Root ... 18 ... it is not thou that bearest the Root, but the Root thee. ... 20 ... BY THEIR UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou standest by thy faith. ... 22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness ... 23 ... IF THEY CONTINUE NOT IN THEIR UNBELIEF, (THEY) SHALL BE GRAFTED IN; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 ... thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and (THOU) WAST GRAFTED CONTRARY TO NATURE INTO A (CULTIVATED) TREE ... THESE, WHICH ARE THE NATURAL, (SHALL) BE GRAFTED INTO THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE ... 25 ... A HARDENING IN PART HATH BEFALLEN ISRAEL, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES (ENTERS). 26 And (in this manner) all Israel shall be saved ... as it is written, THERE SHALL COME OUT OF (EK) ZION THE DELIVERER. HE SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. 27 And THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.
Jim:
All of the fellow believing branches are fellow partakers of the same holy Root. They all are fellow receivers of the same thing, and they all are fellow participants in the same status. Aside from their origins (natural versus foreign), what is true of one is true of all. If one is a citizen of the believing part of Israel, then so are all fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel.
Compare these two passages quoted above. Who are the people from among whom the Jewish unbelievers are destroyed by not believing in the Prophet (Christ)? These people are the Jewish believers. From what are the Jewish unbelievers excluded / broken off? They are excluded / broken off from fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people). Into what will the Jewish unbelievers be engrafted when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ)? They will be engrafted into the very thing from which they had previously been removed / broken off, namely, fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers. Into what then are the Gentile believers now being engrafted by believing in the Prophet (Christ)? They are now being engrafted into the very thing from which the Jewish unbelievers have been excluded / broken off by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ) and into which the Jewish unbelievers will later be engrafted when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ), namely, fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people).
What is the sequence in which all of this happens? The sequence is this: (1) The Prophet (Christ) arises out of (ek) the people. (the Jews). (2) This Prophet is like Moses; just as Moses brought the people (the Jews) into the Old Covenant, likewise this Prophet brings the people (the Jews) into the New Covenant. (3) This Prophet turns away the iniquities/ungodlinesses of the people (the Jews). (4) The Jews who do not believe in this Prophet are destroyed / removed / broken off from fellow citizenship with the Jews who believe (the people) in this Prophet (Christ). (5) The Gentiles who believe in this Prophet enter / are engrafted into the very same fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people) from which the Jewish unbelievers had been destroyed / removed / broken off by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ). (6) Once the fullness of the Gentiles has entered / been engrafted into fellow citizenship with the people (Jewish believers) by believing in the Prophet (Christ), then the Jewish unbelievers will likewise believe in the Prophet (Christ) and they will likewise enter / be engrafted into fellow citizenship with the people (both Jewish believers and Gentile believers).
Question: Who are the people who believe in the Prophet? They are the people who comprise Israel. Which Israel? The Israel in Romans 9:6-8, or the Israel in Romans 9:31-32/11:7-11? The Israel in Romans 9:6-8. Gentile believers are included in the fellow citizenship of this believing, New Covenant Israel (the people) in Romans 9:6-8 for the same reason that Jewish unbelievers are excluded from the fellow citizenship of this believing, New Covenant Israel (the people) in Romans 9:6-8, the reason being that fellow citizenship in this believing, New Covenant Israel (the people) in Romans 9:6-8 is based on believing in the Prophet (Christ).
This is why, after having identified the children of the promise / the children of God as all believers in Christ (the Prophet), both Gentile and Jew, namely us/we, in Romans 4:13-16 / 8:14-18, Paul identifies the fellow citizens of the believing, New Covenant Israel in Romans 9:6-8 as the children of the promise / the children of God (us/we), that is, all believers in the Prophet (Christ), both Gentile and Jew. The us/we in Romans 9:6-8 is the same us in Romans 4:13-16 and the same we in Romans 8:14-18 and the same us in Romans 9:22-24. We are the people who believe in the Prophet and who thus comprise the fellow citizenship of New Covenant Israel.
Jim
holdon:
When anyone believes, he is grafted onto the tree. He doesn't become an Israelite: he becomes a branch of the tree. Simple. Those that are on the tree through are nourished by the fatness of the tree: the promises. However, it is possible to be cut off from those, if one does not abide in the faith: the tree. The tree is not Israel (they are the natural branches, whether attached to the tree or not), nor is it the body of Christ: none could be cut off from that.
Peter and Paul:
(ASV) Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him. 14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, 15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 17 And now, brethren, I know that in ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But the things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled. ... 22 Moses indeed said, A PROPHET SHALL THE LORD GOD RAISE UP UNTO YOU FROM AMONG (OUT OF / EK) YOUR BRETHREN, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you. 23 And it shall be, that EVERY SOUL THAT SHALL NOT HEARKEN TO THAT PROPHET, SHALL BE UTTERLY DESTROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE. ... 26 UNTO YOU FIRST GOD, HAVING RAISED UP HIS SERVANT, SENT HIM TO BLESS YOU, IN TURNING AWAY EVERY ONE OF YOU FROM YOUR INIQUITIES.
(ASV) Romans 11:16 ... if the Root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if SOME OF THE BRANCHES WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the Root ... 18 ... it is not thou that bearest the Root, but the Root thee. ... 20 ... BY THEIR UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou standest by thy faith. ... 22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness ... 23 ... IF THEY CONTINUE NOT IN THEIR UNBELIEF, (THEY) SHALL BE GRAFTED IN; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 ... thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and (THOU) WAST GRAFTED CONTRARY TO NATURE INTO A (CULTIVATED) TREE ... THESE, WHICH ARE THE NATURAL, (SHALL) BE GRAFTED INTO THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE ... 25 ... A HARDENING IN PART HATH BEFALLEN ISRAEL, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES (ENTERS). 26 And (in this manner) all Israel shall be saved ... as it is written, THERE SHALL COME OUT OF (EK) ZION THE DELIVERER. HE SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. 27 And THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.
Jim:
All of the fellow believing branches are fellow partakers of the same holy Root. They all are fellow receivers of the same thing, and they all are fellow participants in the same status. Aside from their origins (natural versus foreign), what is true of one is true of all. If one is a citizen of the believing part of Israel, then so are all fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel.
Compare these two passages quoted above. Who are the people from among whom the Jewish unbelievers are destroyed by not believing in the Prophet (Christ)? These people are the Jewish believers. From what are the Jewish unbelievers excluded / broken off? They are excluded / broken off from fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people). Into what will the Jewish unbelievers be engrafted when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ)? They will be engrafted into the very thing from which they had previously been removed / broken off, namely, fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers. Into what then are the Gentile believers now being engrafted by believing in the Prophet (Christ)? They are now being engrafted into the very thing from which the Jewish unbelievers have been excluded / broken off by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ) and into which the Jewish unbelievers will later be engrafted when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ), namely, fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people).
What is the sequence in which all of this happens? The sequence is this: (1) The Prophet (Christ) arises out of (ek) the people. (the Jews). (2) This Prophet is like Moses; just as Moses brought the people (the Jews) into the Old Covenant, likewise this Prophet brings the people (the Jews) into the New Covenant. (3) This Prophet turns away the iniquities/ungodlinesses of the people (the Jews). (4) The Jews who do not believe in this Prophet are destroyed / removed / broken off from fellow citizenship with the Jews who believe (the people) in this Prophet (Christ). (5) The Gentiles who believe in this Prophet enter / are engrafted into the very same fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people) from which the Jewish unbelievers had been destroyed / removed / broken off by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ). (6) Once the fullness of the Gentiles has entered / been engrafted into fellow citizenship with the people (Jewish believers) by believing in the Prophet (Christ), then the Jewish unbelievers will likewise believe in the Prophet (Christ) and they will likewise enter / be engrafted into fellow citizenship with the people (both Jewish believers and Gentile believers).
Question: Who are the people who believe in the Prophet? They are the people who comprise Israel. Which Israel? The Israel in Romans 9:6-8, or the Israel in Romans 9:31-32/11:7-11? The Israel in Romans 9:6-8. Gentile believers are included in the fellow citizenship of this believing, New Covenant Israel (the people) in Romans 9:6-8 for the same reason that Jewish unbelievers are excluded from the fellow citizenship of this believing, New Covenant Israel (the people) in Romans 9:6-8, the reason being that fellow citizenship in this believing, New Covenant Israel (the people) in Romans 9:6-8 is based on believing in the Prophet (Christ).
This is why, after having identified the children of the promise / the children of God as all believers in Christ (the Prophet), both Gentile and Jew, namely us/we, in Romans 4:13-16 / 8:14-18, Paul identifies the fellow citizens of the believing, New Covenant Israel in Romans 9:6-8 as the children of the promise / the children of God (us/we), that is, all believers in the Prophet (Christ), both Gentile and Jew. The us/we in Romans 9:6-8 is the same us in Romans 4:13-16 and the same we in Romans 8:14-18 and the same us in Romans 9:22-24. We are the people who believe in the Prophet and who thus comprise the fellow citizenship of New Covenant Israel.
Jim
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Yes, I know you like to mix up different things like: the tree = the people. But is says so nowhere.
If that were true, then ALL Israel would be save right now. This alone proves your theory wrong.
But they are to be grafted in again. See Romans 11
Therefore, not the Gentiles. The warning doesn't apply to them: they were never of that people. Case closed.
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Hi holdon,
Jim (previous):
What is the sequence in which all of this happens? The sequence is this: (1) The Prophet (Christ) arises out of (ek) the people. (the Jews). (2) This Prophet is like Moses; just as Moses brought the people (the Jews) into the Old Covenant, likewise this Prophet brings the people (the Jews) into the New Covenant. (3) This Prophet turns away the iniquities/ungodlinesses of the people (the Jews).
holdon (response):
If that were true, then ALL Israel would be save right now. This alone proves your theory wrong.
Jim (this message):
Not so. Only some of the people believed in the Prophet, which is what Moses anticipated, which is exactly what happened. There is nothing in the Jeremiah prophecy that requires that every Jew accept the New Covenant. What the prophecy describes is everyone who accepts the New Covenant having a personal knowledge of God, which is exactly what has happened.
Jim (previous):
(4) The Jews who do not believe in this Prophet are destroyed / removed / broken off from fellow citizenship with the Jews who believe (the people) in this Prophet (Christ).
holdon (response):
But they are to be grafted in again. See Romans 11.
Jim (this message):
I dont need to see Romans 11. See step 6 in the sequence. Didnt you read it?
Jim (previous):
(5) The Gentiles who believe in this Prophet enter / are engrafted into the very same fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people) from which the Jewish unbelievers had been destroyed / removed / broken off by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ). (6) Once the fullness of the Gentiles has entered / been engrafted into fellow citizenship with the people (Jewish believers) by believing in the Prophet (Christ), then the Jewish unbelievers will likewise believe in the Prophet (Christ) and they will likewise enter / be engrafted into fellow citizenship with the people (both Jewish believers and Gentile believers).
Question: Who are the people who believe in the Prophet? They are the people who comprise Israel.
holdon (response):
Therefore, not the Gentiles. The warning doesn't apply to them: they were never of that people. Case closed.
Jim (this message):
Not so. The Gentile believers are engrafted into the very same thing from which the Jewish unbelievers were removed by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ) and into which the Jewish unbelievers will be returned when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ), which is the fellow citizenship with the people (Jewish believers). The Gentile believers are now being engrafted into fellow citizenship with the people (Jewish believers / believing Israel), which is the very same thing from which the Jewish unbelievers were removed by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ) and into which the Jewish unbelievers will be returned when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ).
Jim (previous):
Compare these two passages quoted above. Who are the people from among whom the Jewish unbelievers are destroyed by not believing in the Prophet (Christ)? These people are the Jewish believers. From what are the Jewish unbelievers excluded / broken off? They are excluded / broken off from fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people). Into what will the Jewish unbelievers be engrafted when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ)? They will be engrafted into the very thing from which they had previously been removed / broken off, namely, fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers. Into what then are the Gentile believers now being engrafted by believing in the Prophet (Christ)? They are now being engrafted into the very thing from which the Jewish unbelievers have been excluded / broken off by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ) and into which the Jewish unbelievers will later be engrafted when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ), namely, fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people).
holdon (response):
Yes, I know you like to mix up different things like: the tree = the people. But is says so nowhere.
Jim (this message):
Not so. The people in the Prophet prophecy are the Jewish believers, who are the believing, non-broken-off, natural branches in the tree analogy, from whose fellow citizenship the Jewish unbelievers were removed by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ). My correlation of Acts 3:22-23 with Romans 11:16-24 is NOT an example of conflation. Both passages describe the SAME thing. The only difference is that Paul expands the dynamic of the Prophet prophecy to explain the role of the Gentiles in relation to the people (Jewish believers) and the Prophet (Christ) as well as the subsequent return of Jewish unbelievers to the fellow citizenship of the people (Jewish believers). Paul describes the Gentiles entering into the very thing (the fellow citizenship with the people [Jewish believers / believing Israel]) from which Jewish unbelievers had been removed by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ) and into which Jewish unbelievers will be returned when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ). Correlating these two passages for clarification is NOT an example of conflation, because they both refer to the SAME people and they both describe the SAME thing.
Jim
Jim (previous):
What is the sequence in which all of this happens? The sequence is this: (1) The Prophet (Christ) arises out of (ek) the people. (the Jews). (2) This Prophet is like Moses; just as Moses brought the people (the Jews) into the Old Covenant, likewise this Prophet brings the people (the Jews) into the New Covenant. (3) This Prophet turns away the iniquities/ungodlinesses of the people (the Jews).
holdon (response):
If that were true, then ALL Israel would be save right now. This alone proves your theory wrong.
Jim (this message):
Not so. Only some of the people believed in the Prophet, which is what Moses anticipated, which is exactly what happened. There is nothing in the Jeremiah prophecy that requires that every Jew accept the New Covenant. What the prophecy describes is everyone who accepts the New Covenant having a personal knowledge of God, which is exactly what has happened.
Jim (previous):
(4) The Jews who do not believe in this Prophet are destroyed / removed / broken off from fellow citizenship with the Jews who believe (the people) in this Prophet (Christ).
holdon (response):
But they are to be grafted in again. See Romans 11.
Jim (this message):
I dont need to see Romans 11. See step 6 in the sequence. Didnt you read it?
Jim (previous):
(5) The Gentiles who believe in this Prophet enter / are engrafted into the very same fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people) from which the Jewish unbelievers had been destroyed / removed / broken off by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ). (6) Once the fullness of the Gentiles has entered / been engrafted into fellow citizenship with the people (Jewish believers) by believing in the Prophet (Christ), then the Jewish unbelievers will likewise believe in the Prophet (Christ) and they will likewise enter / be engrafted into fellow citizenship with the people (both Jewish believers and Gentile believers).
Question: Who are the people who believe in the Prophet? They are the people who comprise Israel.
holdon (response):
Therefore, not the Gentiles. The warning doesn't apply to them: they were never of that people. Case closed.
Jim (this message):
Not so. The Gentile believers are engrafted into the very same thing from which the Jewish unbelievers were removed by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ) and into which the Jewish unbelievers will be returned when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ), which is the fellow citizenship with the people (Jewish believers). The Gentile believers are now being engrafted into fellow citizenship with the people (Jewish believers / believing Israel), which is the very same thing from which the Jewish unbelievers were removed by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ) and into which the Jewish unbelievers will be returned when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ).
Jim (previous):
Compare these two passages quoted above. Who are the people from among whom the Jewish unbelievers are destroyed by not believing in the Prophet (Christ)? These people are the Jewish believers. From what are the Jewish unbelievers excluded / broken off? They are excluded / broken off from fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people). Into what will the Jewish unbelievers be engrafted when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ)? They will be engrafted into the very thing from which they had previously been removed / broken off, namely, fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers. Into what then are the Gentile believers now being engrafted by believing in the Prophet (Christ)? They are now being engrafted into the very thing from which the Jewish unbelievers have been excluded / broken off by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ) and into which the Jewish unbelievers will later be engrafted when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ), namely, fellow citizenship with the Jewish believers (the people).
holdon (response):
Yes, I know you like to mix up different things like: the tree = the people. But is says so nowhere.
Jim (this message):
Not so. The people in the Prophet prophecy are the Jewish believers, who are the believing, non-broken-off, natural branches in the tree analogy, from whose fellow citizenship the Jewish unbelievers were removed by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ). My correlation of Acts 3:22-23 with Romans 11:16-24 is NOT an example of conflation. Both passages describe the SAME thing. The only difference is that Paul expands the dynamic of the Prophet prophecy to explain the role of the Gentiles in relation to the people (Jewish believers) and the Prophet (Christ) as well as the subsequent return of Jewish unbelievers to the fellow citizenship of the people (Jewish believers). Paul describes the Gentiles entering into the very thing (the fellow citizenship with the people [Jewish believers / believing Israel]) from which Jewish unbelievers had been removed by their unbelief toward the Prophet (Christ) and into which Jewish unbelievers will be returned when they finally believe in the Prophet (Christ). Correlating these two passages for clarification is NOT an example of conflation, because they both refer to the SAME people and they both describe the SAME thing.
Jim
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You are so wrong. Here read for yourself what Jeremiah says:
31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and will write it in their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will pardon their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
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Jeremiah contrasts the two covenants. He says that the New is not like the Old. One of the differences is that whereas in the Old, the participants constantly encouraged one another to know God, because none of them really knew Him, because they did not have His Spirit, but only His law, in the New, none of the participants have to encourage one another to know God, because all of the participants in the New Covenant have a personal knowledge of Him, because all of them, from the least to the greatest of them, have His Spirit. This is what we have seen ever since the cross. There is nothing in this prophecy that suggests that every Jew on the planet will accept this New Covenant with the house of Israel. The only thing that this prophecy requires is that all of the ones who do participate in this New Covenant have a personal knowledge of God, which is what has come to pass. This prophecy is being fulfilled. It began to be fulfilled at the cross, when Christ initiated this New Covenant, and it will continue to be fulfilled until the second advent of Christ. The partipants in this New Covenant are the ones who believe in the mediator of the New Covenant, namely, Christ.
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