Eph 1:1

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,

Jim (previous):

You’re saying that building of which the Stone (Christ) was made the Cornerstone is not in anyway associated with the builders of the building. But the point of the prophecy is that it is THE BUILDER’S OWN BUILDING of which the Stone (Christ) became the Cornerstone. That’s the point of the prophecy.

holdon:

I fail to see that conclusion.

Jim:

You don’t understand how the building is the builders’ building? What don’t you understand about that? Jesus became the Cornerstone of the builders’ building. He became the Cornerstone of the building whose builders rejected Him. What don’t you understand about that. I understand why you would not WANT to understand it; it doesn’t fit your theology. But it’s unfathomable to me how you could ACTUALLY FAIL to understand the relationship between the builders and their building.


Jim

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


Jim (previous):

And this is why Paul says in Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6 that the Ephesians USED TO BE excluded from the citizenship of Israel and that they USED TO BE strangers from the covenants of the promise.


holdon (response):

Yes. They had no part in that. But now, they do have part: (not in the old system: they could never be part of that), but in the NEW thing. Gentile AND Jewish believers have now BOTH part in an entirely NEW thing. The Jews of old never had part in it: it is an entirely NEW thing. It is the assembly of Christ, the body of Christ, an habitation of God in Spirit.


Jim:

The new thing is the believing part of Israel. The Jewish believers are the ones who comprise the believing part of Israel. They comprise the New Covenant part of Israel. That’s the new thing. And all believers are united as one group (we/us/our), both Gentile and Jew, as fellow citizens and fellow heirs and fellow body members and fellow participants in the covenants of the promise and fellow partakers of the promise in the New Covenant part of Israel. All believers are fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree, fellow citizens in the believing part of Israel. Ever since the cross, Israel has been divided into two parts, an unbelieving (Old Covenant) part (the Jews [non-saints]) and a believing (New Covenant) part (the saints [believers in Christ], both Gentile and Jew). Jewish believers and Jewish unbelievers are NOT one group. They are two different groups. Paul describes Jewish unbelievers as being “broken off” from among the Jewish believers in Romans 11:16-24, as being “destroyed” (excluded) from among the “people” who believe in the “Prophet” in Acts 3:12-26 (3:22-23). In contrast, Jewish believers and Gentile believers ARE one group (we/us/our). They are fellow members of the same group. Paul describes both the non-broken-off natural branches and the engrafted foreign branches as fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree in Romans 11:16-24. They are fellow members of the same body of believers that believes in the “Prophet.” They are all fellow citizens of the “people” who believe in the “Prophet,” from among whom (these “people”) Jewish unbelievers are “destroyed” (excluded). The subject of discussion in Romans 11:25-27 is “Israel.” It is divided into two parts, a believing (non-“hardened”) part of “Israel” and an unbelieving (“hardened”) part of “Israel.” Regarding this subject of discussion in 11:25-27 (“Israel”), Paul says (11:25) that “the Gentiles” are “entering.” What are they “entering?” What is subject of discussion in 11:25-27? “Israel.” Paul states in 11:25-27 (11:25) that “the Gentiles” are “entering” into “Israel.” They are “entering” into the believing (non-“hardened”) part of “Israel” as fellow citizens. The fellow citizens of this believing (non-“hardened”) part of “Israel” in 11:25-27 is analogized as the fellow believing branches in the believing (non-“broken-off”) part of the “tree” in 11:16-24. “The Gentiles” are “engrafted” into the believing (non-“broken-off”) part of the “tree” in 11:16-24 as fellow believing branches; “the Gentiles” are “entering” into the believing (non-“hardened”) part of “Israel” in 11:25-27 as fellow citizens of the believing part of “Israel.”


holdon:

Gentile AND Jewish believers have now BOTH part in an entirely NEW thing.


Jim:

This new thing is the believing “Israel” in Romans 9:6-8 from which the citizens of the unbelieving “Israel” in Romans 9:31-32 are EXCLUDED by their unbelief toward Christ. As you say, “Gentile AND Jewish believers have now BOTH part in an entirely NEW thing.” This new thing is the “Israel” in Romans 9:6-8, in which all believers (we/us/our [one group, one new man] are included, and from which all unbelievers are excluded. The “Israel” in Romans 9:6-8 is a different Israel than the “Israel” in Romans 9:31-32 is. These are two different Israels. The “Israel” in Romans 9:31-32 is the old thing (Old Covenant Israel), whereas the “Israel” in Romans 9:6-8 is the new thing (New Covenant Israel). The “Israel” in Romans 9:6-8 (9:6) is the “Israel” in Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6 (2:12). As Paul states in Ephesians 2:12, the Ephesians “were at that time” (USED TO BE [BUT NO LONGER ARE]) “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel.” As Paul states in Romans 9:6-8, the citizens of this “Israel” are “the children of the promise / the children of God,” who are the “us” in Romans 4:13-16 (4:16), the “we” in Romans 8:14-18 (8:16), that is, all believers (one group, one body, one new man [we/us/our]) in Christ, both Gentile and Jew. These citizens of the “Israel” in Romans 9:6-8, the “children of the promise (‘us’) / children of God (‘we’),” are the “us” in Romans 9:22-24 (9:24), the “vessels of mercy,” both “Gentile” and “Jew.”

This new thing is not described as something into which Jewish believers are inserted. Rather, this new thing is described as something from which Jewish unbelievers are removed. In Acts 3:12-26 (3:22-23), Jewish unbelievers are removed (“destroyed”) from among the “people” who reverence the “Prophet.” In Romans 9:6-8 (9:6), Jewish unbelievers are excluded from the “Israel” that believes in Christ: “But not such that the word of God has failed. For not all the ones out of Israel, these ones, Israel.” In Romans 11:16-24, Jewish unbelievers are “broken off” from among Jewish believers in Christ, whereas these Jewish believers in Christ are joined by Gentile believers in Christ to form one group (we/us/our) of believing branches partaking of the holy Root. The believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, are fellow believing branches (one group [we/us/our]) in the believing part of the “tree,” and the Jewish believers have been “broken off” from this believing part of the “tree.” Paul says that these Jewish unbelievers have been “broken off” from “their own tree,” whereas Gentile believers have been “engrafted” together with the Jewish believers—they have been “engrafted among them” to be “fellow partakers of the Root” (11:17)—as fellow believing branches in the Jews’ “own tree” (Israel).

The believing Jews are not described as going anywhere. They stay where they are. Unbelieving Jews are describes as being removed from them. Unbelieving Jews are “destroyed” from among the “people” who reverence the “Prophet;” they are “broken off” from among the believing natural “branches.” Believing Gentiles are described as being joined to the believing Jews. Believing Gentiles are “engrafted among them” as “fellow partakers of the Root.” All believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, are united in Christ as “one new man;” they are consistently identified as one group (we/us/our).

Thus, we see Jewish believers staying where they are, and we see Jewish unbelievers being removed from Jewish believers to become “them,” and we see Gentile believers joining Jewish believers to form one group identified as “us.” Thus, as a result of the cross, Israel has been divided into two parts, an unbelieving part (“them”), which is comprised of the Jews (non-saints), and a believing part (“us”), which is comprised of the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew. These to parts of “Israel” in Romans 11:25-27 are the two parts of the “tree” in Romans 11:16-24. The unbelieving part of Israel (“them”) is the “Israel” in Romans 9:31-32 (and in 11:7-11). The believing part of Israel (“us”) is the “Israel” in Romans 9:6-8. The Ephesians “were at that time” USED TO BE “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel” (Ephesians 2:12). This “Israel” in Ephesians 2:12 is the “Israel” in Romans 9:6-8 (9:6). “We” (the saints, both Gentile and Jew) are this “Israel” in Romans 9:6-8 (9:6), which is not to be confused with the other “Israel” in Romans 9:31-32/11:7-11 (“they,” the Jews [non-saints]).


Jim

 

[holdon]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

Exactly: and thus those of vs 6 are not gentiles at all....


Jim:

Sure they are. All believers in Christ are the Israel in Romans 9:6.

First you drew the correct conclusion that those in 1-5 are Israelites and now you crawl back? Any with basic reading skills must see that those in vs 6 are the same as before.

You admit that the non-broken-off natural branches in Romans 11:16-24 are the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27, but then you turn around and deny that the engrafted foreign branches in 11:16-24, who are the non-broken-off natural branches’ fellow believing branches, are included in the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27,

Like I told you before: this is simply not the case. Because it doesn't say that the foreign branches are grafted onto the natural branches, but onto the tree! For the rest I don't see any new arguments that you're bringing up here.

 

[holdon]

Hi holdon,

Jim (previous):

You’re saying that building of which the Stone (Christ) was made the Cornerstone is not in anyway associated with the builders of the building. But the point of the prophecy is that it is THE BUILDER’S OWN BUILDING of which the Stone (Christ) became the Cornerstone. That’s the point of the prophecy.

holdon:

I fail to see that conclusion.

Jim:

You don’t understand how the building is the builders’ building? What don’t you understand about that? Jesus became the Cornerstone of the builders’ building. He became the Cornerstone of the building whose builders rejected Him. What don’t you understand about that. I understand why you would not WANT to understand it; it doesn’t fit your theology. But it’s unfathomable to me how you could ACTUALLY FAIL to understand the relationship between the builders and their building.


Jim

The builders of Psalm 118 are not building the assembly of Christ, the habitation of God in Spirit. That could only be build upon the rock of Mt 16 and was then a future thing: Christ said: upon this rock I will build My assembly. And Christ Himself is the cornerstone of that NEW building. Do you know what NEW means?

 

[holdon]

Hi holdon,


Jim (previous):

And this is why Paul says in Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6 that the Ephesians USED TO BE excluded from the citizenship of Israel and that they USED TO BE strangers from the covenants of the promise.


holdon (response):

Yes. They had no part in that. But now, they do have part: (not in the old system: they could never be part of that), but in the NEW thing. Gentile AND Jewish believers have now BOTH part in an entirely NEW thing. The Jews of old never had part in it: it is an entirely NEW thing. It is the assembly of Christ, the body of Christ, an habitation of God in Spirit.


Jim:

The new thing is the believing part of Israel.

And where does it say that??? You're picking this from your imagination, not Scripture.

The Jewish believers are the ones who comprise the believing part of Israel. They comprise the New Covenant part of Israel. That’s the new thing. And all believers are united as one group (we/us/our), both Gentile and Jew, as fellow citizens and fellow heirs and fellow body members and fellow participants in the covenants of the promise and fellow partakers of the promise in the New Covenant part of Israel. All believers are fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree, fellow citizens in the believing part of Israel. Ever since the cross, Israel has been divided into two parts, an unbelieving (Old Covenant) part (the Jews [non-saints]) and a believing (New Covenant) part (the saints [believers in Christ], both Gentile and Jew). Jewish believers and Jewish unbelievers are NOT one group. They are two different groups. Paul describes Jewish unbelievers as being “broken off” from among the Jewish believers in Romans 11:16-24, as being “destroyed” (excluded) from among the “people” who believe in the “Prophet” in Acts 3:12-26 (3:22-23). In contrast, Jewish believers and Gentile believers ARE one group (we/us/our). They are fellow members of the same group.

Yes, and the Christ believing Jews are no longer part of Israel (the old group) they are now in the NEW thing: the assembly of Christ. But from the tree standpoint: they still stand on the tree. (which is by the way another proof that the tree is NOT Israel).

Paul describes both the non-broken-off natural branches and the engrafted foreign branches as fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree in Romans 11:16-24. They are fellow members of the same body of believers that believes in the “Prophet.” They are all fellow citizens of the “people” who believe in the “Prophet,” from among whom (these “people”) Jewish unbelievers are “destroyed” (excluded). The subject of discussion in Romans 11:25-27 is “Israel.”

The subject of Romans 11 is: "has God cast away His people" (vs1). And the answer is: NO! Despite the "breaking off" of the natural branches, God is able to graft those in again. And so ALL Israel shall be saved.

holdon:

Gentile AND Jewish believers have now BOTH part in an entirely NEW thing.


Jim:

This new thing is
This new thing is
This new thing is

What do you have to redefine what this new thing is? It is clearly stated what it is Ephesians. It is right there in front of your eyes:
"that he might form the two in himself into one new man"
"and might reconcile both in one body to God"
"being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the corner-stone, in whom all the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord; in whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit."

This "thing" is never called Israel. Christ believing Israelites and Gentiles are part of it: it is also called the Church. It is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets: it is an entirely new thing. This building is not a continuation of the old Jewish system. Jews enter into it only through faith in Christ. So do the Gentiles.

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

First you drew the correct conclusion that those in 1-5 are Israelites and now you crawl back? Any with basic reading skills must see that those in vs 6 are the same as before.


Jim:

Paul’s assertion in 9:6-8, that the fact that most Israelites (the guys in 9:1-5, who are not participating in the Israelites’ own adoption or in the Israelites’ own covenants of the promise because of their unbelief toward Christ) are not the Israel in 9:6-8, whose members are participating in the adoption and in the covenants of the promise through belief in Christ, is consistent with God’s word, no more preludes Gentile believers in Christ from being fellow members of this Israel in 9:6-8 than his assertion in 9:22-24, that the fact that that most Israelites (the guys in 9:1-5) are the vessels of wrath instead of the vessels of mercy, is consistent with God’s will, precludes Gentile believers in Christ from being fellow members of the vessels of mercy.

All Paul is asserting in Romans 9:1-8 and in Romans 9:22-24 is that the fact that most Israels are not participating in the thing in which believers in Christ (“us/we”) are participating is consistent with Gods’ word and with God’s will. There is nothing in these assertions that precludes Gentile believers from being fellow citizens of saved Israel / fellow vessels of mercy. The citizens of the Israel in 9:6-8 (the ones being saved in accordance with God’s word) are the same “us” who are the vessels of mercy in 9:22-24 (the ones who are being saved in accordance with God’s will).

Your sole argument for excluding Gentile believers from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, which is comprised of believers in Christ, is that Gentiles are excluded from Israel in the Old Testament. Well of course they are excluded in the Old Testament! There are no Gentiles in Old Covenant Israel in the Old Testament. But the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 is not the Old Covenant Israel in the Old Testament; it is the New Covenant Israel in the New Testament, from which Jewish unbelievers are excluded by their unbelief toward Christ and in which Gentile believers are included by their belief in Christ. It’s a different Israel.

Just as there are no Israelites excluded from Old Covenant Israel in the Old Testament, but Israelites who do not believe in Christ (most Israelites) are excluded from New Covenant Israel (Romans 9:6-8 and Galatians 6:15-16 and Ephesians 2:12) in the New Testament, likewise there are no Gentiles in Old Covenant Israel in the Old Testament, but Gentile believers in Christ (many Gentiles) are included in New Covenant Israel in the New Testament.

You are imposing a DOUBLE DEFINITION on the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 in order to (1) allow the fact that unbelieving Jews are excluded from this Israel in Romans 9:6-8 while (2) disallowing the fact that believing Gentiles are included in this Israel in Romans 9:6-8.

If the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 were the Israel in the Old Testament, then none of the Israelites could be excluded from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, because none of the Israelites are excluded from the Israel in the Old Testament. So by allowing the fact that most Israelites are excluded from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, you allow the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 to be DIFFERENT than the Israel in the Old Testament is; you allow the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 to be subject to DIFFERENT rules and to a DIFFERENT definition than the Israel in the Old Testament is. You allow this. This is what you do in order to allow most Israelites to be excluded from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8.

But then you REVERSE yourself in order NOT to allow the inclusion of Gentile believers in the Israel in Romans 9:6-8. Suddenly, when it comes the Gentiles, you CHANGE YOUR MIND and say that the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 is the SAME as the Israel in the Old Testament is and that it is subject to the SAME rules and to the SAME definition that the Israel in the Old Testament is. This is what you do in order NOT to allow Gentile believers to be included in the Israel in Romans 9:6-8.

If you were consistent in your dealing with the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, you have to do one of two things: Either (1) you would have to conclude that the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 is the SAME as the Israel in the Old Testament is and that the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 must therefore included all Israelites because the Israel in the Old Testament includes all Israelites, or (2) you would have to conclude that the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 is DIFFERENT than the Israel in the Old Testament is and that consequently even though the Israel in the Old Testament includes all Israelites and excludes all Gentiles, the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, being a DIFFERENT Israel, both excludes most Israelites because they do not believe in Christ and includes many Gentiles because they believe in Christ.

But you’re not doing that. Instead, you’re employing ONE definition of Israel to exclude unbelieving Israelites from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 and then you’re employing the OPPOSITE definition of Israel to exclude believing Gentiles from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8.

The truth of the matter is that whereas being a citizen of the Israel in the Old Testament is based on being an Israelite, and that this Israel therefore includes all Israelites and excludes all Gentiles, being a citizen of the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 is based, NOT on being an Israelite, but on being a believer in Christ, and this Israel therefore excludes Israelites who do not believe in Christ and includes Gentiles who believe in Christ.

Just as the same definition of the Israel in the Old Testament that includes all Israelites also excludes all Gentiles, likewise the same definition of the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 that excludes unbelieving Israelites also includes believing Gentiles.

The only way to exclude not only unbelieving Israelites but also believing Gentiles from the Israel in Roman 9:6-8 is to dishonestly impose a DOUBLE DEFINITION on the Israel in Romans 9:6-8. This is what you are doing.


Jim

 

[holdon]

Your sole argument for excluding Gentile believers from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, which is comprised of believers in Christ, is that Gentiles are excluded from Israel in the Old Testament.

No, my argument is that in Romans 9:1-8 Paul is speaking about Israelites. He would want them to believe in Christ. There is no talk whatsoever about Gentiles.

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


Jim (previous):

You admit that the non-broken-off natural branches in Romans 11:16-24 are the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27, but then you turn around and deny that the engrafted foreign branches in 11:16-24, who are the non-broken-off natural branches’ fellow believing branches, are included in the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27 ...


holdon:

Like I told you before: this is simply not the case. Because it doesn't say that the foreign branches are grafted onto the natural branches, but onto the tree! For the rest I don't see any new arguments that you're bringing up here.


Jim:

Who said anything about branches being engrafted into branches? I didn’t.

Paul says in Romans 11:17 that the believing foreign branches are engrafted among the believing natural branches as fellow partakers of the same holy Root. They are described as one group of believing branches, both Gentile and Jew, partaking of the holy Root. They are one group, not two groups.

The other group in view is the unbelieving natural branches. This unbelieving group is separated from the believing group by being broken off. That’s two separate groups: (1) the broken-off unbelieving group (Jewish unbelievers) and (2) the non-broken-off / engrafted believing group (believers in Christ, both Jew and Gentile).

Are the unbelieving Jews and believing Jews grouped together into one group? No. They are separated into two separate groups.

Are the believing Jews and believing Gentiles grouped together into one group? Yes. They are grouped together among one another as a single group, and they are fellow partakers of the same thing (the holy Root).

Thus, we see two groups: (1) the unbelieving Jews and (2) the believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, in one group.

Paul says in 11:16-24 that part of the tree (Jewish unbelievers) does not believe in Christ UNTIL the Gentiles have been engrafted.

Paul says in 11:25-27 that part of Israel (Jewish unbelievers) does not believe in Christ UNTIL the Gentiles have entered.

Here we see the exact same logic applied to the exact same people both in 11:16-24 and in 11:25-27.

Are the unbelieving Jews the unbelieving part of the tree in 11:16-24? Yes. Are the unbelieving Jews the unbelieving part of Israel in 11:25-27? Yes.

Are the believing Jews the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24? Yes. Are the believing Jews the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27? Yes.

Are the Gentiles engrafted in 11:16-24? Yes. Do the Gentiles enter in 11:25-27? Yes.

Are the believers, both Gentile and Jew, grouped together into one group in 11:16-24? Yes. Are the believers, both Gentile and Jew, grouped together into one group in 11:25-27? Yes.

Where are the believing Jews? Are they in the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24? Yes. Where are the believing Gentiles? Are they with the believing Jews in the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24? Yes.

Where are the believing Jews? Are they in the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27? Yes. Where are the believing Gentiles? Are they with the believing Jews in the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27? Yes. Why? Because the believers are one group, not two. Wherever the believing Jews are, that’s where the believing Gentiles are too. They are one group.

But you say no. You say that the believers are not one group, but two. You say that the believing Jews are in the believing part of Israel, but that the believing Gentiles are somewhere else.

Paul separates the unbelieving Jews and the believing Jews into two separate groups, but you unite them into one group.

Paul unites the believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, into one group, but you separate them into two separate groups.

Why do you do this? Is it because of what Paul says? No. You do it because of your theological view, a view which says the opposite of what Paul says.


Jim

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


Jim (previous):


You’re saying that building of which the Stone (Christ) was made the Cornerstone is not in anyway associated with the builders of the building. But the point of the prophecy is that it is THE BUILDER’S OWN BUILDING of which the Stone (Christ) became the Cornerstone. That’s the point of the prophecy.


holdon (response):

I fail to see that conclusion.




Jim (response):

You don’t understand how the building is the builders’ building? What don’t you understand about that? Jesus became the Cornerstone of the builders’ building. He became the Cornerstone of the building whose builders rejected Him. What don’t you understand about that. I understand why you would not WANT to understand it; it doesn’t fit your theology. But it’s unfathomable to me how you could ACTUALLY FAIL to understand the relationship between the builders and their building.


holdon (response):

The builders of Psalm 118 are not building the assembly of Christ, the habitation of God in Spirit. That could only be build upon the rock of Mt 16 and was then a future thing: Christ said: upon this rock I will build My assembly. And Christ Himself is the cornerstone of that NEW building. Do you know what NEW means?


Jim:

As I said, because of your theological view, you don’t WANT to understand the relationship between the builders and the building. The building of which Christ has become the Cornerstone and of which the believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, have become fellow citizens had been the builders’ building (Israel), just as the tree of which Christ has become the Root and of which the believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, have become fellow believing branches had been the broke-off unbelieving natural branches’ tree (Israel).

But according to you, the building never was the builders’ building. This is the kind of reasoning that your theological view forces you to adopt.


Jim

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

No, my argument is that in Romans 9:1-8 Paul is speaking about Israelites. He would want them to believe in Christ. There is no talk whatsoever about Gentiles.


Jim:

No, Paul is not talking about the same people throughout Romans 9:1-8. These are two different groups of people. The people in 9:1-5 are NOT the people in 9:6-8. That’s Paul’s point.

Paul makes exactly the same point in 9:22-24. The people in 9:22 are NOT the people in 9:23-24, just as the people in 9:1-5 are NOT the people in 9:6-8.

God patiently endured the people in 9:22. These are the same people that are in 9:1-5. (Compare 10:21, where Paul describes them the same way. God patiently endured the unbelieving Jews.)

Just as the people in 9:1-5 are the same people that are in 9:22, likewise the people in 9:6-8 are the same people that are in 9:23-24. It’s the same contrast both in 9:1-5 / 9:6-8 and in 9:22 / 9:23-24.

Just as the fact that the people in 9:22 are not the people in 9:23-24 does not exclude Gentile believers from the people in 9:23-24, likewise the fact that the people in 9:1-5 are not the people in 9:6-8 does not exclude Gentile believers from the people in 9:6-8.

The fact that not all Israelites are the Israel in 9:6-8 no more excludes Gentile believers from the Israel n 9:6-8 than the fact that not all Israelites are the vessels of mercy in 9:23-24 excludes Gentile believers from the vessels of mercy in 9:23-24.

As I said in a previous message, it is in the context of the Israel in 9:6-8 receiving what the Israel in 9:1-5 / 9:31-32 / 11:7-11 is not receiving that Paul says that the Gentiles in 9:30 are receiving what the Israel in 9:1-5 / 9:31-32 / 11:7-11 is not receiving. Paul can say this because all believers, both Gentile and Jew, are included in the Israel in 9:6-8.

This is why Paul identifies the Israel in 9:6-8 as "the children of the promise / the children of God" (9:8), whom he had previously identifed in 4:13-16 / 8:14-18 as all believers, both Gentile and Jew, namely, "us/we." The "us/we" in Romans 4:13-16 / 8:14-18 are the people in 9:6-8, who in turn are the "us" in 9:22-23.


Jim

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

... this new thing ... is clearly stated what ... (in) Ephesians. It is right there in front of your eyes: "that he might form the two in himself into one new man.”


Jim:

That’s been my point all along !!!!!!! This is what you’ve been denying all along !!!!!!! One cannot separate the one new man into two separate groups, and yet that is exactly what you’ve been doing !!!!!!! The saints are one group, not two !!!!!!! This means that if the believing Jews are the believing part of Israel in Romans 11:25-27, then all the saints are the believing part of Israel, because one cannot separate the one new man into two separate groups. This means that if the believing Jews are the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, then all the saints, namely “us/we,” are this Israel, because one cannot separate the one new man into two separate groups. This means that the Israel in Ephesians 2:12, which is the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 and in Galatians 6:15-16, is all the saints, because one cannot separate the one new man into two separate groups. This is why Paul says in Ephesians 2:12 that the Ephesians “were at that time” (they used to be, but they are no longer) “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel.” Now they are “the saints’ fellow citizens” (2:19). All the saints (the one new man) are the citizens of this Israel in Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 6:15-16 and Ephesians 2:12. But you keep dividing this one new man into two separate men, only one of which you allow to be the citizens of the believing part of Israel in Romans 11:25, which is the believing Israel in 9:6-8, which is the Israel in Galatians 6:15-16 and in Ephesians 2:12.


Jim

 

[A Brother In Christ]

gal 3:28

 

[holdon]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

... this new thing ... is clearly stated what ... (in) Ephesians. It is right there in front of your eyes: "that he might form the two in himself into one new man.”


Jim:

That’s been my point all along !!!!!!! This is what you’ve been denying all along !!!!!!! One cannot separate the one new man into two separate groups, and yet that is exactly what you’ve been doing !!!!!!! The saints are one group, not two !!!!!!!

Oh no, that's not at all what you have said so far. You have repeatedly claimed that this was NOT a NEW thing, but a continuation of the old thing: the thing you call Israel. But the bible says in Eph 2 that there is a NEW thing: not Israel, but the assembly of Christ.
Believing Jews are joined to that assembly: added to the Church, etc...
What you do is joining the Gentiles to the old Israel. which you say is the tree of Romans 11. But, if it is a new thing, it cannot be the tree of Romans 11, because from that tree Israel was natural branches, and therefore existed long before....

You contradict yourself and Scripture so many times, it is hard to keep a logical conversation.

 

[holdon]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

No, my argument is that in Romans 9:1-8 Paul is speaking about Israelites. He would want them to believe in Christ. There is no talk whatsoever about Gentiles.


Jim:

No, Paul is not talking about the same people throughout Romans 9:1-8. These are two different groups of people. The people in 9:1-5 are NOT the people in 9:6-8. That’s Paul’s point.

Well, they are and they aren't: Paul speaks of Israelites that is for sure as any can see. Paul does NOT speak about Gentiles in this portion. Paul makes a distinction between those of Israel that believe in Christ and those that don't. That's all. But they are still Israelites one way or the other.

 

[holdon]

Jim:

As I said, because of your theological view, you don’t WANT to understand the relationship between the builders and the building. The building of which Christ has become the Cornerstone and of which the believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, have become fellow citizens had been the builders’ building (Israel), just as the tree of which Christ has become the Root and of which the believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, have become fellow believing branches had been the broke-off unbelieving natural branches’ tree (Israel).

I believe you don't see the forest from the trees that you keep shaking out of your imagination. There is only 1 tree in Romans 11.

But according to you, the building never was the builders’ building. This is the kind of reasoning that your theological view forces you to adopt.


Jim

The building of the new testament is a habitation of God in the Spirit. Christ says: I will (Future) build my assembly. It didn't exist before: the foundation was only laid by the apostles and prophets of the new testament.

 

[holdon]

But you’re not doing that. Instead, you’re employing ONE definition of Israel to exclude unbelieving Israelites from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 and then you’re employing the OPPOSITE definition of Israel to exclude believing Gentiles from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8.

It's kind of ironic that in discussing this portion of Scripture you must accuse you me of dishonesty. Paul started this portion by: I do not lie. I guess there have been adversaries to this truth for a long time.

9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit,
9:2
that I have great grief and uninterrupted pain in my heart,
9:3
for I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, kinsmen, according to flesh;
9:4
who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the law-giving, and the service, and the promises;
9:5
whose are the fathers; and of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
9:6
Not however as though the word of God had failed; for not all are Israel which are of Israel;
9:7
nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children: but, In Isaac shall a seed be called to thee.
9:8
That is, they that are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned as seed.

Now, where do you see gentiles in this portion of Scripture???? Nowhere. Are you a descendant of Isaac? Are you a descendant of Jacob? (vs 10 - 13). Are you of the people of Israel, under Moses? (vs 15).

No gentile was part of those promises.....

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


Jim (message #38 in this thread [my first message in this thread]):

The conclusion that Paul divides the body of Christ (one group) into two different groups, the “holy” ones (Jewish believers) and the “believing” ones (Gentile believers), is a contradiction of literally everything that Paul says throughout his epistles to the Ephesians and the Colossians.

Jim (message #39):

Paul does not contradict his doctrine by dividing the body of Christ (one group [we/us/our]) into two different groups. It is the ones who pervert the words of the Bible who contradict what Paul says by dividing the body of Christ (one group [we/us/our]) into two different groups.

Jim (message #40):

These two parts of the tree in Romans 11:16-24, which are the two parts of Israel in 11:25-27, are the two Israels in 9:6-8 (New Covenant Israel [the saints, both Gentile and Jew]) and in 9:31-32 and 11:7-11 (Old Covenant Israel [the Jews (non-saints)]). Paul does not divide the body of Christ (one group [we/us/our]) into two groups. The citizenship of New Covenant Israel is comprised of the body of Christ (the saints [all believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew]), the vessels of God’s mercy (Romans 9:22-24). God’s mercy does not glorify the flesh (the recipient being a Jew). Rather, God’s mercy glorifies Christ (the recipient being a saint [a believer in Christ, whether Gentile or Jew]).

Jim (message #44):

Whereas Paul categorizes Jewish unbelievers and Jewish believers into two different groups, you unite them into one group, and whereas Paul categorizes believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, into one group (we/us/our), you divide them into two different groups. You reject the words of Paul in favor of your own theology. You are in denial.

Jim (message #49):

That is not what I said. I said that most Israelites are not the Israel in Romans 9:6-8. Only some Israelites are citizens of this Israel, whereas many Gentiles are citizens of this Israel. Gentile believers are included in the citizenship of this Israel for the same reason that Jewish unbelievers are excluded from the citizenship of this Israel, the reason being that the basis for citizenship in this Israel is belief in Christ, not being a Jew or participating in the law of Moses. As Paul says in 9:8, it is not the children of the flesh (the physical descendent [the Jews]) who are this Israel, but the children of the promise / the children of God, whom Paul had already identified in 4:13-16 and 8:14-18 as the saints (“us/we”), both Gentile and Jew.

Jim (message #57):

The tree was not something with which Jewish unbelievers had never been associated. If it were, then they would not have originally been a part of it, and consequently they would not have been “broken off” by their unbelief. It’s THEIR OWN TREE, as Paul states, in which the believing natural branches (Jewish believers) REMAINED by their belief toward Christ, and it’s THEIR OWN TREE, as Paul states, from which the unbelieving natural branches (Jewish unbelievers) were BROKEN OFF by their unbelief toward Christ, and it’s THEIR OWN TREE (the Jews’ tree) into which believing foreign branches (Gentile believers) were being ENGRAFTED. It’s THEIR (THE JEWS’) TREE. The saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew, comprise the branches of THEIR (THE JEWS’) OWN TREE.

In the true-Prophet prophecy in Acts 3, the Jewish unbelievers are excluded/destroyed from among THEIR OWN PEOPLE (ISRAEL) by their unbelief toward the true Prophet (Christ). We later see Gentile believers joining Jewish believers as the true “people” (Israel) of God under this true “Prophet.”

In both the Cornerstone prophecy and the true-Prophet prophecy and in the olive-tree analogy, we see Jewish unbelievers being excluded from their own people (believing Israel) UNTIL the Gentile believers have joined the Jewish believers as the people (believing Israel) of God. This is why Paul identifies the Israel that believes in Christ in Romans 9:6-8 as the children of the promise / the children of God, whom he identifies in 4:13-16 and 8:14-18 as “us/we,” the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew. And this is why Paul says in Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6 that the Ephesians USED TO BE excluded from the citizenship of Israel and that they USED TO BE strangers from the covenants of the promise.

Jim (message # 60):

Sure they are. All believers in Christ are the Israel in Romans 9:6. All believers participate in the covenants of the promise. You’re saying that the believing Jews are the heirs and the partakers of the promise through belief in Christ, excluding the believing Gentiles. You’re saying that they are two different groups, and that they are on two different levels. But Paul says that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow body members and fellow partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6) and fellow citizens (Ephesians 2:19). He does not describe two different groups, but one group, the “us” in Romans 4:16, the “we” in Romans 8:16, who are the children of the promise / the children of God in Romans 9:8, who are the “us” in Romans 9:24. It’s one group, and the members of this one group are “fellows,” which means that what is true of them is true of all of them. You admit that the non-broken-off natural branches in Romans 11:16-24 are the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27, but then you turn around and deny that the engrafted foreign branches in 11:16-24, who are the non-broken-off natural branches’ fellow believing branches, are included in the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27, as if the believing branches, both the non-broken-off natural and the engrafted foreign, were not all fellow believing branches, as if the believing branches did not all partake of the same Root, as if they were not all one group, as if they were not the “us/we” (one group) in Romans 4:16, 8:16, 9:8 and 9:24. Your reason for denying this has nothing to do with what Paul says, because what Paul says confirms that all believers are one group, the fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel. Your reason for denying this is your chosen theological position, a position which is incompatible with what the Biblical text says.

Jim (message #62):

The new thing is the believing part of Israel. The Jewish believers are the ones who comprise the believing part of Israel. They comprise the New Covenant part of Israel. That’s the new thing. And all believers are united as one group (we/us/our), both Gentile and Jew, as fellow citizens and fellow heirs and fellow body members and fellow participants in the covenants of the promise and fellow partakers of the promise in the New Covenant part of Israel. All believers are fellow believing branches in the believing part of the tree, fellow citizens in the believing part of Israel. Ever since the cross, Israel has been divided into two parts, an unbelieving (Old Covenant) part (the Jews [non-saints]) and a believing (New Covenant) part (the saints [believers in Christ], both Gentile and Jew).

The believing Jews are not described as going anywhere. They stay where they are. Unbelieving Jews are describes as being removed from them. Unbelieving Jews are “destroyed” from among the “people” who reverence the “Prophet;” they are “broken off” from among the believing natural “branches.” Believing Gentiles are described as being joined to the believing Jews. Believing Gentiles are “engrafted among them” as “fellow partakers of the Root.” All believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, are united in Christ as “one new man;” they are consistently identified as one group (we/us/our).

Jim (message #66):

All Paul is asserting in Romans 9:1-8 and in Romans 9:22-24 is that the fact that most Israels are not participating in the thing in which believers in Christ (“us/we”) are participating is consistent with Gods’ word and with God’s will. There is nothing in these assertions that precludes Gentile believers from being fellow citizens of saved Israel / fellow vessels of mercy. The citizens of the Israel in 9:6-8 (the ones being saved in accordance with God’s word) are the same “us” who are the vessels of mercy in 9:22-24 (the ones who are being saved in accordance with God’s will). ... The truth of the matter is that whereas being a citizen of the Israel in the Old Testament is based on being an Israelite, and that this Israel therefore includes all Israelites and excludes all Gentiles, being a citizen of the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 is based, NOT on being an Israelite, but on being a believer in Christ, and this Israel therefore excludes Israelites who do not believe in Christ and includes Gentiles who believe in Christ. Just as the same definition of the Israel in the Old Testament that includes all Israelites also excludes all Gentiles, likewise the same definition of the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 that excludes unbelieving Israelites also includes believing Gentiles.

Jim (message #68):

Where are the believing Jews? Are they in the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27? Yes. Where are the believing Gentiles? Are they with the believing Jews in the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27? Yes. Why? Because the believers are one group, not two. Wherever the believing Jews are, that’s where the believing Gentiles are too. They are one group.

Jim (message #70):

The fact that not all Israelites are the Israel in 9:6-8 no more excludes Gentile believers from the Israel n 9:6-8 than the fact that not all Israelites are the vessels of mercy in 9:23-24 excludes Gentile believers from the vessels of mercy in 9:23-24. ... This is why Paul identifies the Israel in 9:6-8 as "the children of the promise / the children of God" (9:8), whom he had previously identified in 4:13-16 / 8:14-18 as all believers, both Gentile and Jew, namely, "us/we." The "us/we" in Romans 4:13-16 / 8:14-18 are the people in 9:6-8, who in turn are the "us" in 9:22-23.

END OF PART ONE. PROCEED TO PART TWO.

 

[Jim1]

PART TWO

holdon (message #65):

... this new thing ... is clearly stated what ... (in) Ephesians. It is right there in front of your eyes: "that he might form the two in himself into one new man.”

Jim (message # 71):

That’s been my point all along !!!!!!! This is what you’ve been denying all along !!!!!!! One cannot separate the one new man into two separate groups, and yet that is exactly what you’ve been doing !!!!!!! The saints are one group, not two !!!!!!! This means that if the believing Jews are the believing part of Israel in Romans 11:25-27, then all the saints are the believing part of Israel, because one cannot separate the one new man into two separate groups. This means that if the believing Jews are the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, then all the saints, namely “us/we,” are this Israel, because one cannot separate the one new man into two separate groups. This means that the Israel in Ephesians 2:12, which is the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 and in Galatians 6:15-16, is all the saints, because one cannot separate the one new man into two separate groups. This is why Paul says in Ephesians 2:12 that the Ephesians “were at that time” (they used to be, but they are no longer) “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel.” Now they are “the saints’ fellow citizens” (2:19). All the saints (the one new man) are the citizens of this Israel in Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 6:15-16 and Ephesians 2:12. But you keep dividing this one new man into two separate men, only one of which you allow to be the citizens of the believing part of Israel in Romans 11:25, which is the believing Israel in 9:6-8, which is the Israel in Galatians 6:15-16 and in Ephesians 2:12.

holdon:

Oh no, that's not at all what you have said so far. You have repeatedly claimed that this was NOT a NEW thing, but a continuation of the old thing: the thing you call Israel. But the bible says in Eph 2 that there is a NEW thing: not Israel, but the assembly of Christ. Believing Jews are joined to that assembly: added to the Church, etc. ... What you do is joining the Gentiles to the old Israel. which you say is the tree of Romans 11. But, if it is a new thing, it cannot be the tree of Romans 11, because from that tree Israel was natural branches, and therefore existed long before. ... You contradict yourself and Scripture so many times, it is hard to keep a logical conversation.

Jim (this message):

As you can see, the fact that the saints are one group (one new man in Christ), not two groups, and that wherever the Jewish believers are is where the Gentile believers must also be is consistently expressed throughout this thread. This is what Paul consistently expresses throughout his epistles. If the Jewish believers are the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, then so too must be the Gentile believers, because the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew, are one body, not two; they are the “us” (the children of the promise) in Romans 4:16, the “we” (the children of God) in Romans 8:16, the “children of the promise (‘us’) / children of God (‘we’)” in Romans 9:8, the “us” (the vessels of mercy) in Romans 9:24.

We see the same thing in Romans 11:16-24; the saints are all grouped together into one group of believing branches who are fellow partakers of the same Root, whereas unbelieving Jews are removed to be a different group. Paul says in 11:16-24 that part of the tree does not believe until the Gentiles have been engrafted (joined with the believing Jews to be one group in the believing part of the tree), and he says in 11:25-27 that part of Israel does not believe until the Gentiles have entered (joined with the believing Jews to be one group in the believing part of Israel).

The New Covenant IS the new thing. In Ephesians 2:14-16, the Old Covenant division between Gentile and Jew was the old thing, whereas Gentile and Jew being united into one new man in Christ in the New Covenant is the new thing.

I’ll say it again. The division of Gentile and Jew into two separate groups is an Old Covenant thing, an old thing, whereas the union of Gentile and Jew into one group, one new man, is a New Covenant thing, a new thing. I address this in message #62 (an excerpt is quoted above).

When Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) initiated God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel by shedding the Blood of the New Covenant on the cross to remove sin, He began a new thing that was different than the old thing (the Old Covenant) was.

As Jeremiah predicts, God would make a New Covenant with the house of Israel, and it would not be like the covenant that He had made with their fathers; it would be new and different, and it would actually accomplish what the Old Covenant could not accomplish. One of the aspects of this New Covenant that would differ from the Old Covenant, an aspect that Jeremiah doesn’t mention because it had not yet been revealed, would be that the Old Covenant division between Gentile and Jew would done away in the New Covenant. Thus, in the New Covenant, the New Covenant people of God are the ones who believe in the mediator of the New Covenant (Christ), both Gentile and Jew united in Christ into one group, one New Covenant man, one new man.

Thus, Gentile believers and Jewish believers are one new man in Christ, and they cannot be divided into two different groups. The division of Gentile and Jew into two different groups is an Old Covenant thing, an old thing. The union of Gentile and Jew into one group in Christ is a New Covenant thing, a new thing. Thus, the New Covenant Israel in Romans 9:6-8, from which all unbelievers are excluded, is comprised of all believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew united in Christ into one new man in the New Covenant Israel. The ones who comprise this New Covenant Israel are identified in Romans 9:6-8 (9:8) as “the children of God (the ‘us’ in 4:16 [all believers]) / the children of God (the ‘we’ in 8:16 [all believers]), who are the “vessels of mercy” (the “us” in 9:24).

We see the same thing in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27. The believers in Christ are united together into one group of believing branches in the believing part of the tree as fellow partakers of the holy Root, and the Jewish unbelievers are removed (“broken off”) to be a separate group, to be the unbelieving, broken-off part of the tree. This analogy describes exactly the same thing that Paul says in 11:25-27. Just as Paul says in 11:16-24 that part of the tree does not believe in Christ UNTIL the Gentiles have been engrafted, likewise he says in 11:25-27 that part of Israel does not believe in Christ UNTIL the Gentiles have entered. Just as all believers, both Gentile and Jew, are united (as one new man) into one group in the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24, likewise all believers, both Gentile and Jew, are united (as one new man) into one group in the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27.

This is why it is in the context of the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 receiving what the Israel in Romans 9:31-32 / 11:7-11 is not receiving that the Gentiles are stated in Romans 9:30 / 11:11 to be receiving what the Israel in Romans 9:31-32 / 11:7-11 is not receiving. The reason that Paul can say this is that the Gentiles who believe in Christ are included in the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, whose citizens are the ones who believe in Christ, both Gentile and Jew being included as one new man in this believing, New Covenant Israel.

This is also why Paul can say in Ephesians 2:12 that the Ephesians “were at that time” (they used to be, but now they are no longer) “excluded from the citizenship of Israel.” The citizens of this New Covenant Israel are the saints (all believers in Christ). This is the same Israel that Paul describes in Romans 9:6-8. As Paul says Ephesians 2:19, the Ephesians are now “the saints’ fellow citizens.”

As I said before, you employ a double definition in order to exclude Gentile believers from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8. You can deny it all you want, but this is what you do. You use the Old Covenant definition of Israel (Israel includes all Israelites and excludes all Gentiles) to exclude Gentile believers from this New Covenant Israel, but you turn around and use the New Covenant definition of Israel (Israel includes all believers in Christ and excludes all unbelievers) to allow the exclusion of Jewish unbelievers from this New Covenant Israel.

You do the same thing in regard to the one new man. You use the “one-new-man” concept to falsely claim that Gentile believers in Christ are excluded from the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 on the basis of your false claim that the reference to “Israel” in this passage is an old thing, not a new thing. But in the process of denying the inclusion of all believers in Christ in this Israel in Romans 9:6-8, you deny the “one-new-man” concept by dividing this one new man into two separate groups; you allow this Israel to include Jewish believers in Christ, but you do not allow it to include Gentile believers in Christ, hence your division of the one new man in Christ (believers in Christ) into two separate groups. But this Israel in Romans 9:6-8 IS a new thing, because this Israel includes all believers in Christ (the one new man) and excludes all unbelievers, which most certainly is a new (New Covenant) concept of Israel that completely differs from the old (Old Covenant) concept of Israel.

Thus, the reasoning that you use to exclude Gentile believers from their union with Jewish believers as one new man in Christ, as fellow citizens of the believing (New Covenant) part of Israel, is manipulative and dishonest. You do this because you put your dispensational theology, which is incorrect and non-Biblical, ahead of what the Bible says.


Jim

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon (message #74):

Well, they are and they aren't: Paul speaks of Israelites that is for sure as any can see.


Jim:

Again, you’re using double think. No, the people in Romans 9:1-5 are NOT the people in Romans 9:6-8. That’s Paul’s point.

The people in 9:1-5 are the vessels of wrath in 9:22, the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel in 9:31-32 and 11:7-11, the broken-off natural branches in 11:16-24, the unbelieving part of Israel in 11:25-27.

In contrast, the people in 9:6-8 are the believing, New Covenant Israel, the vessels of mercy in 9:23-24, the election in 11:7, the believing branches who are fellow partakers of the Root in 11:16-24, the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27.

The people in 9:6-8, who are identifies as “the children of the promise / the children of God” (9:8), are identified as “us” (all believers [the children of the promise]) in 4:13-16 (4:16) and as “we” (all believers [the children of God]) in 8:14-18 (8:16) and as “us” (all believers [the vessels of mercy]) in 9:22-24 (9:24).

The citizens of the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 are believers in Christ. They are the one new man in Christ. They are the “us” (one new man in Christ) in 4:16 and the “we” (one new man in Christ) in 8:16 and the “us” (one new man in Christ) in 9:24.


Jim

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

There is only 1 tree in Romans 11.


Jim:

One tree, two parts, in 11:16-24. One Israel, two parts, in 11:25-27.

The unbelieving part of the tree / Israel (the Jews [non-saints]) in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27 is the unbelieving Israel in 9:31-32 and 11:7-11.

The believing part of the tree / Israel (the saints [both Gentile and Jew]) in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27 is the believing Israel in 9:6-8.

All the saints are together in one group, one new man, in 9:6-8 and 11:16-24 and 11:25-27.

The Jews (non-saints) are a different group in 9:31-32 and 11:7-11 and 11:16-24 / 11:25-27.


holdon:

The building of the new testament is a habitation of God in the Spirit. Christ says: I will (Future) build my assembly. It didn't exist before: the foundation was only laid by the apostles and prophets of the new testament.


Jim:

New Covenant Israel did not exist until the cross, when Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) became the Cornerstone of the part of Israel that accepted God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel by believing in Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant), which (this New Covenant) Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) initiated when He shed the Blood of the New Covenant on the cross to remove sin. Christ became the Cornerstone of Israel when He initiated God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel. He became the Cornerstone of the building (Israel) after the builders (the Jews) rejected Him. That’s the point of the Cornerstone prophecy.

Most of the builders (most of the Jews) rejected the Stone (Christ), and the Stone (Christ) became the Cornerstone of the building (Israel), that is, the part of the building (the part of Israel) that did not reject Him.

Thus, the kingdom of God was taken from the Jews who rejected Christ and was given to a nation (the Jews who believed in Him and subsequently also the Gentiles who believed in Him) that would produce the fruit of the kingdom of God.

Christ is the Cornerstone of this nation, this building, which is the part of Israel that accepts God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel by believing in Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant), and the saints, both Gentile and Jew in one body (one new man), are the fellow citizens of this building, this New Covenant part of Israel, this New Covenant Israel.

This is why, in Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6, the Ephesians are now, as believers in Christ, no longer excluded from the citizenship of Israel. Now, as saints, and thus fellow citizens of New Covenant Israel, they are fellow members of the building whose Cornerstone is Christ.

Yes, this building of which Christ is the Cornerstone is New Covenant Israel. Christ became the Cornerstone of the part of the building (the part of Israel) that accepted the New Covenant by believing in Him (the mediator of the New Covenant) after most of the builders (most of the Jews) rejected Him. As the prophecy says, the Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) rejected became the Cornerstone of the building (Israel).

Comparably, in Romans 11:16-24, Christ became the Root of the tree (Israel) after most of the branches (Jewish unbelievers) rejected Him. They were broken off by their unbelief.

Comparably, in Acts 3:22-23, Christ is the Prophet of the people, and the ones who do not believe in Him are destroyed (broken off) from among the people. The people who comprise this Israel whose Prophet is Christ are the saints (believers in Christ), the one new man, from among whom Jewish unbelievers are destroyed (broken off).


Jim