Eph 1:1

[A Brother In Christ]

epesian church knew a lot of knowledge and We can learn of what they knew by studing Acts

 

[Notrash]

Thanks for the well researched comments Jim. The issue of they/we pronouns and it's alledged reference to dividing was based on commmentary from I think JDS in another thread. The wording of the opening sentences is kinda important to analyize to see if Paul uses this writing style as descriptive of the saints or is seperating the saints from other belivers throughout other areas. Thanks again for the confirming comments.

The primary point was to show how there is a descriptive writing style used by Paul and then to show that he uses that same writing style in Gal 6:15-16 where the "new creation" of verse 15 is identified as the "Israel of God" as a phrase found nowhere else in the bible in verse 16.

 

[holdon]

But now, as believers in Christ, they are (like all believers, both Gentile and Jew) “in Christ” (no longer “without Christ”) and “no longer strangers” (no longer “strangers from the covenants of the promise,” having received the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant in the New Covenant through belief in Christ [the mediator of the New Covenant]) and “the saints’ fellow citizens” (no longer “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel,” the citizens of this New Covenant “Israel” being “the saints” [all believers in Christ], and the “Cornerstone” of this New Covenant “Israel” being “Christ Jesus Himself”) and “fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the Gospel.”

I can't understand how people can just insert words into the sacred texts to conjecture their own thoughts.
There is no "New Covenant" in Eph. 2.
There is no "citizens of this New Covenant" in Eph. 2.
There is no "Israel being all the saints" in Eph. 2.
There is no "Cornerstone of this New Covenant" in Eph. 2.

The Israel in Ephesians 2:12, from whose citizenship the Ephesians USED TO BE excluded (as unbelievers), but of which the Ephesians NOW (as believers in Christ) are fellow citizens, is the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, from whose citizenship Jewish unbelievers ARE excluded (as unbelievers). This is the Israel whose citizens are the saints (all believers in Christ), namely, US (all believers), and whose Cornerstone is Christ. Paul identifies the citizens of this New Covenant Israel in Romans 9:6-8 as “the children of the promise / the children of God,” whom he had previously identified as “us/we,” all believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew,

Romans 9:6-8 is about "those from Israel" as even a child can see. "kinsmen according to the flesh", "who are Israelites" in vs 3 and 4. How blind can you be for not to see this?

That is why, in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, where Paul analogizes Israel in 11:25-27 as the cultivated olive tree

No, he does not. He never says that this tree is Israel. Israel are the natural branches: some thrown out, others stayed in. Gentiles are the wild branches, grafted in through belief. Nowhere is it said that the wild branches are grafted onto the natural branches, but onto the tree itself.

in 11:16-24, Paul says that the unbelieving part of the tree (comprised of Jewish unbelievers) is broken off from the believing part of the tree (comprised of Jewish believers in Christ) UNTIL the Gentiles (Gentile believers in Christ) have been grafted into the believing part of the tree (comprised of all believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew).

These two parts of the tree in Romans 11:16-24, which are the two parts of Israel in 11:25-27, are the two Israels in 9:6-8 (New Covenant Israel [the saints, both Gentile and Jew]) and in 9:31-32 and 11:7-11 (Old Covenant Israel [the Jews (non-saints)]).

No there are 3 parts: the root, the natural branches and the wild branches. And is said to those last ones: "fear: if God indeed has not spared the natural branches; lest it might be he spare not thee either." That is addressed to the Gentiles, not some invention of "new covenant Israel comprising jewish and gentile believers".

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

I can't understand how people can just insert words into the sacred texts to conjecture their own thoughts. There is no "New Covenant" in Eph. 2. There is no "citizens of this New Covenant" in Eph. 2.There is no "Israel being all the saints" in Eph. 2. There is no "Cornerstone of this New Covenant" in Eph. 2.


Jim:

There is no insertion of words. It’s what the logic of the language of the text requires. The Ephesians “once ... at that time” were (but now are no longer, as required by the language of the text): (1) “without Christ” and (2) “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel” and (3) “strangers from the covenants of the promise,” as stated in Ephesians 2:11-12. You are in denial, wrestling against the words of Paul, because his words don’t fit your theology. Instead of admitting that your theology is wrong, you deny his words.

This language in Ephesians 2:11-12 requires that the Ephesians now be no longer “without Christ,” and Paul confirms this, stating that “now” they are “in Christ” (2:13). This language in 2:11-12 requires that the Ephesians now be no longer “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel,” and Paul confirms this, stating that “now” (2:13) they are “the saints’ fellow citizens” (2:19). This language in 2:11-12 requires that the Ephesians now be no longer “strangers from the covenants of the promise,” and Paul confirms this, stating that “now” (2:13) they are “no longer strangers” (2:19), but they are “fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the Gospel” (3:6). The language of Paul explicitly confirms in 2:13 and 2:19 and 3:6 what is implicitly required in 2:11-12. You are in denial.

Yes, the New Covenant is in view, Paul referring to “the covenants (plural) of the promise” in Ephesians 2:12. The promise of the Abrahamic Covenant is received in the New Covenant through belief in Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant). The fact that it is not the Jews (non-saints) who receive the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant in the Old Covenant through the law of Moses, but the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew, who receive the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant in the New Covenant through belief in Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant), is clear in Romans 4:13-16 and 7:6, Galatians 3:16-29 and 4:21-31 and Hebrews 9:15 and 12:18-24. You are in denial.

Yes, Christ is the Cornerstone of New Covenant Israel. Christ says in Matthew 21:42-43 that the Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) reject becomes the Cornerstone of the building, this building of which He becomes the Cornerstone being the builders’ (the Jews’) building (Israel). Christ is now, ever since the cross, the Cornerstone of the Jews’ own building (Israel), as described in Matthew 21:42-43, the Root of the Jews’ own tree (Israel), as described in Romans 11:16-24.

The Ephesians “once ... at that time” were “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel” (Ephesians 2:11-12), but “now” that they are “in Christ” (2:13), they are “the saints’ fellow citizens” (2:19) of this New Covenant Israel, this “building” of which “Christ Jesus Himself” is the “Cornerstone (2:20-21).

Jewish unbelievers have been excluded by their unbelief toward Christ from their own building ever since Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) became the Cornerstone of the building (now a New Covenant building [ever since the cross]), and they have been excluded by their unbelief toward Christ from their own tree ever since Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) became the Root of the tree (now a New Covenant tree [ever since the cross]).

Just as Gentile believers are included in the believing (New Covenant) tree / Israel in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, likewise they are included in the believing (New Covenant) building / Israel in Ephesians 2:11-21.

Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) initiated God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel when He shed the Blood of the New Covenant on the cross, removing sin. Only part of the house of Israel accepted this New Covenant by believing in Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant). The other part of the house of Israel rejected the New Covenant by rejecting Christ. Thus, ever since the cross, the house of Israel has been divided into two parts, which are the two parts of the tree in Romans 11:16-24, the two parts of Israel in 11:25-27, which are the two Israels in Romans 9:6-8 and Romans 9:31-32 / 11:7-11, which are the two Israels in Galatians 4:21-31, each Israel having its own covenant (Old or New) and its own Jerusalem (present or above), as stated in Galatians 4:21-31.


holdon:

Romans 9:6-8 is about "those from Israel" as even a child can see. "kinsmen according to the flesh", "who are Israelites" in vs 3 and 4. How blind can you be for not to see this?


Jim:

Most Israelites are not this Israel. They are excluded from the citizenship of this New Covenant Israel by their unbelief toward Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant). This New Covenant Israel is comprised of the ones who believe in Christ (the Mediator of the New Covenant), who are identified in Romans 9:6-8 as “the children of the promise / the children of God,” who are identified in Romans 4:13-16 / 8:14-18 as “us / we” (one group), the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew, who are identified in Romans 9:22-24 as “us” (one group), the “vessels of mercy” (the saints [believers in Christ], both Gentile and Jew). Gentile believers in Christ are included in this New Covenant Israel for the same reason that Jewish unbelievers are excluded from it, the reason being that citizenship in this New Covenant Israel is based on belief in Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant), not on being Jewish in the flesh or on the law of Moses. In restricting the citizenry of this New Covenant Israel to the ones who are Jewish in the flesh, you are no only denying the words of Paul but also confusing the qualifications for citizenship in Old Covenant Israel with the qualifications for citizenship in New Covenant Israel. These are two different Israels with two different sets of qualifications for citizenship.

You are in denial. The logic of Paul’s language requires that the tree in Romans 11:16-24 be Israel in 11:25-27. The people who comprise the unbelieving (broken-off) part of the tree in 11:11-24 are the exact same people who comprise the unbelieving (hardened) part of Israel in 11:25-27, and the people who comprise the believing (non-broken-off) part of the tree in 11:11-24 are the exact same people who comprise the believing (non-hardened) part of Israel in 11:25-27. If the exact same people comprise both the tree in 11:16-24 and Israel in 11:25-27, then the tree in 11:16-24 has to be Israel in 11:25-27; logically, it can’t be anything else.

The subject of discussion in 11:16-24 is the tree, and Paul describes Gentile believers entering (being engrafted) into the believing part of the tree.

The subject of discussion in 11:25-27 is Israel, and Paul describes Gentile believers “entering.” What do they “enter?” What’s the subject of discussion? Israel. Thus, they enter the believing part of Israel.

The exact same people comprise both the tree in Romans 11:16-24 and Israel in 11:25-27, and the exact same logic is applied both the tree in 11:16-24 and Israel in 11:25-27. Paul states in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, where he analogizes Israel in 11:25-27 as the tree in 11:16-24, that part of the tree / Israel does not believe in Christ UNTIL the Gentiles have entered into the part of the tree / Israel that believes in Him.


holdon:

No there are 3 parts: the root, the natural branches and the wild branches. And is said to those last ones: "fear: if God indeed has not spared the natural branches; lest it might be he spare not thee either." That is addressed to the Gentiles, not some invention of "new covenant Israel comprising jewish and gentile believers".


Jim:

No, Paul describes two parts of the tree / Israel in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, an unbelieving part of the tree / Israel (Jewish unbelievers) and a believing part of the tree / Israel (believers in Christ [one group, not two], both Gentile and Jew).

The natural branches are not grouped together into one group. They are separate. The unbelieving Jews are “broken off” and separated from the believing Jews. Likewise, the included branches, both natural and foreign, are not separated into two groups, but they are united into one group in the believing part of the tree (Israel). Thus, there are two groups: (1) the Jews (non-saints) and (2) the saints (both Gentile and Jew). We see this grouping Romans 9:22-24; there are the vessels of wrath (the Jews [non-saints]) and the vessels of mercy (“us” [one group], the saints, both Gentile and Jew). Likewise, we see this same grouping in Galatians 4:21-31; there are the Old Covenant people (the Jews [non-saints]) and the New Covenant people (“we” [one group], the saints, both Gentile and Jew). Likewise, the recipients of the Spirit of adoption, the heirs, are one group (“we”), not two, in Romans 8:14-18. Likewise, the recipients of the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant in the New Covenant through belief in Christ are one group (“us”), not two, in Romans 4:13-16. Likewise, the saints, both Gentile and Jew, are united in Christ into one new man, the both in one body (one group) being reconciled to God through the cross, in Ephesians 2:14-16.

Whereas Paul categorizes Jewish unbelievers and Jewish believers into two different groups, you unite them into one group, and whereas Paul categorizes believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, into one group (we/us/our), you divide them into two different groups. You reject the words of Paul in favor of your own theology. You are in denial.

As for the Root in Romans 11:16-24 , Christ is the Root of the believing (New Covenant) part of the tree, just as He is the Cornerstone of the New Covenant building, just as He is the Head of the body of Christ. As Paul says in Romans 11:16-24, it is the holy Root that makes the partaking, included branches (both natural and foreign) holy. Throughout his epistles, Paul consistently identifies Christ as the holy One who makes holy (sanctifies) the holy ones (the saints [both Gentile and Jew]).


Jim

 

[Terral]

Hi Holdon and Jim:

Holdon (Post #43) >> I can't understand how people can just insert words into the sacred texts to conjecture their own thoughts.
There is no "New Covenant" in Eph. 2.
There is no "citizens of this New Covenant" in Eph. 2.
There is no "Israel being all the saints" in Eph. 2.
There is no "Cornerstone of this New Covenant" in Eph. 2.

Jim is presenting a well-manicured version of “Replacement Theology” based upon the members of “Christ’s BODY” (Church #2 here) being brought under the “New Covenant” specifically effected between the Lord God (Christ) and the “Houses of Israel and Judah.” Hebrews 8:8-10. Therefore, he must place elements of “Prophecy” for Israel of the flesh within “Grace Doctrine” for 'our mystery church' without any regard to the absolute fact that ‘we’ (Body of Christ) are already seated in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus. Eph. 2:4-7. If you do not know the differences between Jesus of the flesh and Christ Jesus (my thread) and the differences between our mystery church and Peter’s Kingdom Bride (thread here), then this kind of blindness can happen to just about anyone. This Dispy Forum is being overrun by Universalists and now Replacement Theologians, so what is a bible thumper to do? :0)

Jim (Post #43) >> There is no insertion of words. It’s what the logic of the language of the text requires.

No sir. Jim is conveniently adding lingo to the Text in order to prop up a definite ‘misinterpretation’ and ‘misrepresentation’ of what Paul is teaching to these Gentiles concerning our “Body of Christ” (children of promise) having NOTHING to do with Israel of the flesh (Rom. 9:1-5) at all. The fact is that Jim’s logic requires Jim to add all of these things to the Text, because Jim is selling a brand of Replacement Theology, or his version of Denominationalism (mystery of iniquity) taught nowhere in God’s Living Word.

Jim >> The Ephesians “once ... at that time” were (but now are no longer, as required by the language of the text): (1) “without Christ” and (2) “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel” and (3) “strangers from the covenants of the promise,” as stated in Ephesians 2:11-12. You are in denial, wrestling against the words of Paul, because his words don’t fit your theology. Instead of admitting that your theology is wrong, you deny his words.

No sir. Jim is in denial and has invented his own interpretation having nothing to do with ‘our’ Mystery is Great BODY of Christ (Eph. 4:12) church already seated in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6). The fact that these Gentiles were ‘separate’ from Israel of the flesh DOES NOT include them in Israel of the flesh by hearing and believing Paul’s “message of truth” to THEN become “sealed IN HIM.” Let’s simply read the verses and see what Paul says and without your additions,

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed IN HIM [not into Israel of the flesh] with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:13-14.

Paul is describing a Holy Operation OF GOD where each individual believer is baptized INTO CHRIST Himself upon hearing and believing our Gospel, saying,

“For even as the body is one [not two branches] and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit [the Holy Spirit] ‘we’ were all [believers in our gospel] baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were ‘all’ [believers in our gospel] made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.” 1Corinthians 12:12-14.

The commonwealth of Israel has nothing at all to do with ‘where’ all the believers in our gospel ARE BAPTIZED, which is directly into Christ Jesus Himself!

“For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you [believers in our gospel] who were baptized into Christ [not into Israel of the flesh] have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all ONE “IN” Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:26-28.

Replacement Theologians take a few verses from Romans 11 to make their “two olive trees” case, when in fact ‘we’ (believers), from the Jews AND Gentiles, are being baptized into the same “one Body” that is “Christ’s Body” having NOTHING to do with Israel of the flesh at all. The Jews obedient to our gospel are baptized into Christ and grafted into the same ‘Rich Root,’ as Gentiles obeying our gospel to be grafted and baptized directly INTO CHRIST HIMSELF.

Jim >> This language in Ephesians 2:11-12 requires that the Ephesians now be no longer “without Christ,” and Paul confirms this, stating that “now” they are “in Christ” (2:13).

Yes. That is because the believers in our gospel have been ‘sealed IN Him’ to be “baptized into Christ” at the very moment we are sealed IN HIM “for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30). However (and this is where Jim is in denial), there were no Jews sitting “IN” Christ Jesus already, UNLESS they also heard and believed our gospel! It is not like disobedient Israel, guilty of their ‘transgression’ (Rom 11:11) and under the power of the ‘spirit of STUPOR’ (Rom. 11:8) have already found their way into Christ Jesus, unless they have also believed OUR GOSPEL. In that case, there is no such thing as a Jew or Greek (Gentile) IN Christ Jesus anyway (Gal. 3:28 above), so your theory just went right out the window. :0) In case you are unaware, then our citizenship is “IN HEAVEN” (Phil 3:20) and Israel’s inheritance is in this earth (Eze. 37:11-12). We are being translated and carried to “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18) having NOTHING whatsoever to do with Israel of the flesh at all. Just for fun, how many Jews in the Four Gospels do you believe were found “IN Christ Jesus?” The answer is Zero! Christ has to die AND God had to raise Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) AND God and to send Paul’s “my gospel” into the world, before anyone like us could ‘hear’ and ‘believe’ it to THEN be ‘sealed in Him’ to THEN be seated in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus, which is exactly where Jesus of the flesh was seated IN Him (read Eph. 2:4-7 again slowly). The fact that you want to baptize the believers in our gospel back into Israel of the flesh is appalling to this member of Christ’s Body to say the least . . .

Jim >> This language in 2:11-12 requires that the Ephesians now be no longer “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel,” and Paul confirms this, stating that “now” (2:13) they are “the saints’ fellow citizens” (2:19).

Didn’t we just read this same lingo from you above? :0) Again, the fact that Gentiles are a separate household (dispensation) from Israel of the flesh does NOT baptize one believer in our gospel back into Israel to become any ‘fellow citizens’ with those very much under Mosaic Law (Matt. 5:17-19). Paul is simply stating that Israel of the flesh and Gentiles are SEPARATE, before becoming ‘one body’ in Christ Jesus. That has NOTHING to do with these two groups becoming ‘one’ ON THIS EARTH, which is the place where the “New Covenant” (Heb 8:8) will be effected at a time in the future . . .

Jim >> This language in 2:11-12 requires that the Ephesians now be no longer “strangers from the covenants of the promise,” and Paul confirms this, stating that “now” (2:13) they are “no longer strangers” (2:19), but they are “fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the Gospel” (3:6).

No Jim. You are finding ten different ways to stumble over the same simple concept that God is taking members of Christ’s body from Israel of the flesh AND Gentiles, while at the SAME TIME making Israel of the flesh “Jealous” (Deut 32:21, Rom 10:19, 11:11, etc.).

Jim >> The language of Paul explicitly confirms in 2:13 and 2:19 and 3:6 what is implicitly required in 2:11-12. You are in denial.

No sir. I already have three posts on this thread, and Jim is invited to offer rebuttals to any of them including this one. This Epistle to the Ephesians contains doctrinal precepts of “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26) of things “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9) and ONLY ‘revealed’ in the Pauline Epistles. Your inclusion of “Gentiles” with Israel of the flesh is a matter of Old Testament and New Testament “Prophecy” that everyone ‘was’ given to see, while ‘these things’ (2Peter 3:14-16) are ‘hard to understand’ and the untaught distort them to ‘their own destruction.’ God’s plan to gather the Gentiles along with Israel of the flesh takes place ‘after these things’ (Acts 15:16-18) of today, when the Tabernacle of David is restored and “all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:25-29). Anybody can see the “New Covenant” is effected between the Lord God (Christ) and the Houses of Israel and Judah very much part of this earth, but ‘we’ (believers in our gospel) have lives hidden with Christ IN GOD (Col. 3:1-3) even as we speak. There is no future covenant that will make anyone “IN Christ Jesus” any closer to God, because ‘we’ are the members of Christ’s BODY even now. Israel of the flesh will work and work and work their way, until at some point they are invited to the “marriage supper of the Lamb” (Rev. 19:5-10) that ends ‘every age.’ Only then will those taking part in the “New Covenant” join us (Body of Christ members) “IN Christ Jesus” throughout the ages to come.

If ‘you’ require a New Covenant (like Israel of the flesh) to become baptized into Christ, then ‘you’ are NOT a member of Christ’s body by hearing and believing our gospel. In that case, you are disqualified from even writing one word of commentary ‘to’ the members of Christ’s Body on any of these ‘Grace Doctrine’ topics. In that case, good luck and God bless you, because I am already,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Jim1]

The only thing that is replaced is the Old Covenant being replaced by the New Covenant, as prophesied by Jeremiah in the first place. The part of the house of Israel that accepts this New Covenant fulfills the prophecy. The part of the house of Israel that refuses this New Covenant is excluded. There is no replacement here. The Gentiles who accept this New Covenant are likewise included in the fulfillment of the prophecy. The ones who accept this New Covenant by believing in Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) ARE (not just in name, but in fact) the New Covenant house of Israel as predicted by Jeremiah. There is no replacement here. This is simply a fulfillment of the prophecy. God's law is written in the hearts of believers in Christ by the Spirit, and their sins are removed, as predicted in the prophecy. It's what the prophecy predicts, and it's what the language of the New Testament expresses. The accusation that this is a replacement is a denial of what the language of the New Testament plainly states.


Terral:

No Jim. You are finding ten different ways to stumble over the same simple concept that God is taking members of Christ’s body from Israel of the flesh AND Gentiles, while at the SAME TIME making Israel of the flesh “Jealous” (Deut 32:21, Rom 10:19, 11:11, etc.).


Jim:

I'm not stumbling at the Word; I'm accepting it. In contrast, you're rejecting it in favor of your own theology. The only replacement occurring here is your replacement of theWord with your theology. You replace the Word with your theology, and then you accuse anyone who disagrees with your theology (everyone who accepts the Word disagrees with your theology) of disagreeing with the Word, when in fact such a person is simply disagreeing with your theology by accepting the Word. Anyone who can read can see what is logically required by the language in Ephesians 2:11-12. But you don't care what is required by the language, because you only care about your theology. Then you falsely accuse anyone who disagrees with your theology of stumbling at the Word, when in fact you're the one who is stumbling at the Word in your adherence to your false theology.

 

[Terral]

Hi Jim:

Jim >> The only thing that is replaced is the Old Covenant being replaced by the New Covenant, as prophesied by Jeremiah in the first place.

WoW is Jim wrong. :0) Perhaps you forgot all about a special event that took place between those two covenants at Calvary. :0) Paul’s “Word of the Cross” (1Cor. 1:18 = Gospel #2 here) gospel message has NOTHING to do with the Old or New Covenants. Just how many times does Paul say, “As Jeremiah says,” in all of his Epistles combined? ZERO.

Jim >> The part of the house of Israel that accepts this New Covenant fulfills the prophecy.

No sir. Prophecy says the New Covenant is effected between the Lord and the Houses of Israel and Judah. Period!

“For finding fault with them, He says, "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a New Covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah; not like the covenant which I made with THEIR FATHERS on the day when I took them by the hand to lead 'them' out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in My covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.” Hebrews 8:8-9.

Jim wants to give Israel’s New Covenant to just anyone coming along, but Scripture is clear that the Lord Himself effects this New Covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah. We can see the prophecy from Ezekiel 34, saying,

"Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd. And I, the Lord (Jesus is Lord!), will be their God (Hebrews 1:8), and My servant David will be prince among them; I the Lord (Christ) have spoken. I will make a *covenant of peace with them and eliminate harmful beasts from the land so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.” Ezekiel 34:23-25.

Scripture has been written AND Scripture cannot be broken (Jn 10:35) AND the Lord HAS SPOKEN and this is exactly what will happen, when “all Israel shall be saved.” Romans 11:25-29.

Jim >> The part of the house of Israel that refuses this New Covenant is excluded.

No sir. The people refusing to heed Elijah’s words will be utterly destroyed from among the people (Acts 3:22-23) and that includes Jews, Gentiles and the little green guys flying around in their UFO’s and everyone else. :0) You can interpret “all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:25-26) anyway you wish . . .

Jim >> There is no replacement here.

We agree. There is only Jim trying to sell his Replacement Theology nonsense in this ChristianForums.com Dispensationalism Forum. Nice try, but no cigar for you. :0)

Jim >> The Gentiles who accept this New Covenant are likewise included in the fulfillment of the prophecy.

There is only one problem, Jim, and you said it yourself right here: Paul’s Gospel is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Rom. 16:25) having nothing to do with the fulfillment of Prophecy. You are confusing what happens ‘after these things’ (Acts 15:16-18) with the things taking place ‘today’ during this current 2000 Year “Mystery Time” (diagram and diagram). The Gentiles of ‘tomorrow’ will be called to God through the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Gospel #1 here) that has saved nobody for about the past 2000 years. However, Elijah will return (and is at the door even now) and he will begin preaching the “Gospel of the Kingdom,” until that good news message goes to the whole world (Matt. 24:14), just about 1000 years from today. The “New Covenant” has everything to do with the Kingdom ‘Bride’ (Church #1 here) called through the Gospel of the Kingdom over the next 1000 years, but ‘we’ (Body of Christ) will see all of that from heaven AFTER our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) and when the kingdom is THEN restored to Israel.

Jim >> The ones who accept this New Covenant by believing in Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) ARE (not just in name, but in fact) the New Covenant house of Israel as predicted by Jeremiah.

Of course not. Those are the people of Jim’s vain imagination . . .

Jim >> There is no replacement here. This is simply a fulfillment of the prophecy.

If Jim knew the difference between the Fulfillment of OT and NT “Prophecy” VERSUS the “Revelation of THE MYSTERY,” then we would not be having this conversation. In that case he would already know that our ‘mystery church’ of the Pauline Epistles has NOTHING to do with any New Covenant at all. :0) Since you have no reply to my post above (#45) and will haul out a new sheet of paper to make more unsupported claims to this Post, then our readers already realize that Jim has no case for anything at all.

Jim >> God's law is written in the hearts of believers in Christ by the Spirit, and their sins are removed, as predicted in the prophecy.

As what?? :0) Good luck proving that ‘our gospel’ is according to PROPHECY, because nothing like that appears in the OT ANYWHERE. Are you blind or seeing things?? :0) Paul characterizes his “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” (1Cor. 2:2) gospel message as God’s Hidden Wisdom, saying that if Satan and his cronies understood our gospel (NOT), they would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory. 1Corinthians 2:6-8. However, Jim appears to be saying that our gospel ‘is’ part of Prophecy, so please explain what Paul is talking about and how Jim kept Satan from seeing it? :0)

Jim >> It's what the prophecy predicts, and it's what the language of the New Testament expresses. The accusation that this is a replacement is a denial of what the language of the New Testament plainly states.

No sir. I ‘do’ understand the VAST differences between Paul’s “The Mystery” and the fulfillment of “Prophecy” that Jim is running together without knowing the difference. Scripture is written to be interpreted at least 2000 different ways and yours with mine represent just two of them. You have already been caught adding your own phrases to the Text in order to milk out Jim’s Prophecy Interpretation having NOTHING to do with our gospel that is “according to the revelation of the mystery,” or our church that is according to the revelation of the mystery, or our rapture, or anything else the OT prophets DID NOT ever get to see. :0) Please forgive, but I can see where Jim is writing from and can also see the blind spot in your theology wide enough to fit a big giant dump truck sideways going 100 miles per hour to beat the band . . . If anyone wants to follow in your brand of Replacement Theology, then everyone here is free to make up his or her own mind; but thank you anyway . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[holdon]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

I can't understand how people can just insert words into the sacred texts to conjecture their own thoughts. There is no "New Covenant" in Eph. 2. There is no "citizens of this New Covenant" in Eph. 2.There is no "Israel being all the saints" in Eph. 2. There is no "Cornerstone of this New Covenant" in Eph. 2.


Jim:

There is no insertion of words. It’s what the logic of the language of the text requires. The Ephesians “once ... at that time” were (but now are no longer, as required by the language of the text): (1) “without Christ” and (2) “excluded from the citizenship of the Israel” and (3) “strangers from the covenants of the promise,” as stated in Ephesians 2:11-12.

But it does NOT say that. You're putting your own conclusions into the text.

Yes, the New Covenant is in view, Paul referring to “the covenants (plural) of the promise” in Ephesians 2:12.

The covenants belong to the Israelites per Romans 9:4.

Yes, Christ is the Cornerstone of New Covenant Israel. Christ says in Matthew 21:42-43 that the Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) reject becomes the Cornerstone of the building, this building of which He becomes the Cornerstone being the builders’ (the Jews’) building (Israel).

It's all conjecture. The New Covenant is never called a building as far as I am aware. The assembly of Christ is. And that is NEVER called Israel.

Just as Gentile believers are included in the believing (New Covenant) tree / Israel in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, likewise they are included in the believing (New Covenant) building / Israel in Ephesians 2:11-21.

Your reasoning doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The New Covenant tree is not Israel, nor is it "new": the "old Israel" (the natural branches) was already part of it. And the Eph 2:11-21 doesn't even speak of the New Covenant, let alone a so-called "spiritual Israel".

Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) initiated God’s New Covenant with the house of Israel when He shed the Blood of the New Covenant on the cross, removing sin. Only part of the house of Israel accepted this New Covenant by believing in Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant). The other part of the house of Israel rejected the New Covenant by rejecting Christ.

And this is proof in itself that the New Covenant has not been made with Israel yet: because then ALL of Israel would be believers. This is clearly not the case.

holdon:

Romans 9:6-8 is about "those from Israel" as even a child can see. "kinsmen according to the flesh", "who are Israelites" in vs 3 and 4. How blind can you be for not to see this?


Jim:

Most Israelites are not this Israel.

They are as you say yourself: "Israelites". That is what Paul is saying in these verses. He is not at all talking about gentiles.

You are in denial. The logic of Paul’s language requires that the tree in Romans 11:16-24 be Israel in 11:25-27. The people who comprise the unbelieving (broken-off) part of the tree in 11:11-24 are the exact same people who comprise the unbelieving (hardened) part of Israel in 11:25-27, and the people who comprise the believing (non-broken-off) part of the tree in 11:11-24 are the exact same people who comprise the believing (non-hardened) part of Israel in 11:25-27. If the exact same people comprise both the tree in 11:16-24 and Israel in 11:25-27, then the tree in 11:16-24 has to be Israel in 11:25-27; logically, it can’t be anything else

Your logic is none. The natural branches are Israel. There are 2 kinds of natural branches: those cut off and those standing on the tree; the unbelievers and the believing remnant.

holdon:

No there are 3 parts: the root, the natural branches and the wild branches. And is said to those last ones: "fear: if God indeed has not spared the natural branches; lest it might be he spare not thee either." That is addressed to the Gentiles, not some invention of "new covenant Israel comprising jewish and gentile believers".


Jim:

No, Paul describes two parts of the tree / Israel in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, an unbelieving part of the tree / Israel (Jewish unbelievers) and a believing part of the tree / Israel (believers in Christ [one group, not two], both Gentile and Jew).

You're in denial: Paul describes: 1. a root 2. natural branches cut off but some others still standing 3. wild branches grafted in. There are 2 kinds of natural branches: believing Israelites and unbelieving Israelites.

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

But it does NOT say that. You're putting your own conclusions into the text.


Jim:

No. It’s what the language expresses. Paul is contrasting what the Ephesians “were at that time” in Ephesians 2:12 versus what they “now are” in Ephesians 2:13, 2:19-21 and 3:6.


holdon:

The covenants belong to the Israelites per Romans 9:4.


Jim:

Paul’s point in Romans 9:1-5 is that although these things had been originally associated with the Jews, most Jews are not being saved, whereas many Gentiles are being saved. Only saved people participate in the covenants of the promise, receiving the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant in the New Covenant through belief in Christ. That’s why, after having identified the children of the promise (“us”) as the saints, both Gentile and Jew, in Romans 4:13-18, and after having identified the children of God (“we”), the ones with the Spirit of the adoption, as the saints, both Gentile and Jew, in Romans 8:14-18, and after having identified the Jews as the ones originally associated with the adoption and the covenants in Romans 9:1-5, Paul states in Romans 9:6-8, in support of the fact that God’s word has not failed, that most of the Jews are not Israel / the children of the promise / the children of God, whereas all the saints (“us/we”), both Gentile and Jew, are, the reason being that participation in the adoption and the covenants (plural) of the promise is based, not on being a Jew or on the law of Moses, but on belief in Christ. Thus, we see most Jews being excluded from the thing which the saints (“us/we”), both Gentile and Jew, are receiving.


Jim (previous):

Yes, Christ is the Cornerstone of New Covenant Israel. Christ says in Matthew 21:42-43 that the Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) reject becomes the Cornerstone of the building, this building of which He becomes the Cornerstone being the builders’ (the Jews’) building (Israel).


holdon:

It's all conjecture. The New Covenant is never called a building as far as I am aware. The assembly of Christ is. And that is NEVER called Israel.


Jim:

I never said that the New Covenant is the building, but that Israel is the building, and that once Christ became the Cornerstone of this building, the members of this building were restricted to believers in Christ, both Gentile and Jew, which is why Paul refers to the saints, both Gentile and Jew, as Israel in Romans 9:6-8 and in Galatians 6:15-16 and in Ephesians 2:12. Jewish unbelievers are excluded / broken off from this New Covenant building/tree, this New Covenant Israel, by their unbelief toward Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant and the Cornerstone of New Covenant Israel). The Jews are the builders, and the building is their (the Jews’) building (Israel), just as the tree is their tree (Israel), and Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) became the Cornerstone of the building (New Covenant Israel), the Root of the tree (New Covenant Israel), and the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew, became the members of this New Covenant building, the branches of this New Covenant tree, the citizens of this New Covenant Israel.


holdon:

Your reasoning doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The New Covenant tree is not Israel ...


Jim:

Yes, it is. The exact same people comprise both.


holdon:

... nor is it "new" ...


Jim:

The believing (in Christ) part of the tree / Israel did not exist until the cross, when Christ became the Cornerstone of the building, the Root of the tree.


holdon:

... the "old Israel" (the natural branches) was already part of it.


Jim:

No, the natural branches are both the broken-off natural branches (Jewish unbelievers) and the non-broken-off natural branches (Jewish believers). When belief in Christ became the issue, the tree divided into two parts, an unbelieving, broken-off part and a believing, non-broken-off part, Gentile believers entering into the believing part as fellow branches of the believing part. Thus, Israel divided into two parts, an unbelieving, hardened part, and a believing, non-hardened part, Gentile believers entering into the believing part as fellow citizens of the believing part.


holdon:

And the Eph 2:11-21 doesn't even speak of the New Covenant, let alone a so-called "spiritual Israel".


Jim:

The Israel in Ephesians 2:11-21, whose citizens are the saints, both Gentile and Jew, and whose Cornerstone is Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant), is the Israel that is identified with the covenants (plural) of the promise, the citizens of this New Covenant Israel receiving the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant in the New Covenant through belief in Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant).


holdon: And this is proof in itself that the New Covenant has not been made with Israel yet: because then ALL of Israel would be believers. This is clearly not the case.


Jim:

In the Jeremiah prophecy, the Old and New Covenants are contrasted, the New being different than the Old. In the Old Covenant, all participants in this covenant encouraged one another to know the Lord, because no one actually knew Him, because all they had was the letter; they didn’t have Him, the Spirit. In contrast, in the New Covenant, all participants in this covenant automatically know the Lord, because all of the participants have Him, the Spirit. As Paul states in 2 Corinthians 3:6, the New Covenant is a covenant of the Spirit and of life, whereas the Old Covenant was a covenant of the letter and of death.


holdon:

They (the citizens of the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 – Jim) are as you say yourself: "Israelites". That is what Paul is saying in these verses. He is not at all talking about gentiles.


Jim:

That is not what I said. I said that most Israelites are not the Israel in Romans 9:6-8. Only some Israelites are citizens of this Israel, whereas many Gentiles are citizens of this Israel. Gentile believers are included in the citizenship of this Israel for the same reason that Jewish unbelievers are excluded from the citizenship of this Israel, the reason being that the basis for citizenship in this Israel is belief in Christ, not being a Jew or participating in the law of Moses. As Paul says in 9:8, it is not the children of the flesh (the physical descendent [the Jews]) who are this Israel, but the children of the promise / the children of God, whom Paul had already identified in 4:13-16 and 8:14-18 as the saints (“us/we”), both Gentile and Jew.


holdon:

Your logic is none. The natural branches are Israel. There are 2 kinds of natural branches: those cut off and those standing on the tree; the unbelievers and the believing remnant.


Jim:

If the same unbelieving Jews comprise the unbelieving part of the tree / Israel in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, and if the same believing Jews comprise the believing part of the tree / Israel in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, then the tree in Romans 11:16-24 has to be Israel in Romans 11:25-27.

In Romans 11:16-24, Paul says that part of the tree does not believe in Christ until the Gentiles enter into the part of the tree that believes in Him.

In Romans 11:25-27, Paul says that part of Israel does not believe in Christ until the Gentiles enter.

The same exact people comprise both the tree in 11:16-24 and Israel in 11:25-27, and the same exact logic is applied both to the tree in 11:16-24 and to Israel in 11:25-27. So, yes, the tree in 11:16-24 has to be Israel in 11:25-27. Logically, it can’t be anything else.


holdon:

You're in denial: Paul describes: 1. a root 2. natural branches cut off but some others still standing 3. wild branches grafted in. There are 2 kinds of natural branches: believing Israelites and unbelieving Israelites.


Jim:

Paul describes a believing part of the tree and an unbelieving part of the tree in 11:16-24, just as he describes a believing part of Israel and an unbelieving part of Israel in 11:25-27; and the Gentiles are said to “enter” into the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27, just as the Gentiles are said to enter (“be engrafted”) into the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24.

The Root of the believing part of the tree (Israel) is Christ in Romans 11:16-24, just as the Cornerstone of the building (Israel) is Christ in Matthew 21:42-43. It is the holy Root (Christ) that makes holy (sanctifies) the included/partaking holy branches / the holy ones (the saints) in the believing part of the tree.


Jim

 

[holdon]

No. It’s what the language expresses. Paul is contrasting what the Ephesians “were at that time” in Ephesians 2:12 versus what they “now are” in Ephesians 2:13, 2:19-21 and 3:6.

Nowhere does it say that gentile believers "now are" part of Israel. Simply nowhere.

Paul states in Romans 9:6-8, in support of the fact that God’s word has not failed, that most of the Jews are not Israel / the children of the promise / the children of God, whereas all the saints (“us/we”), both Gentile and Jew, are,

Complete and utter nonsense. Paul doesn't say at all that Gentile are part of Israel and most certainly not in Rom. 9:6-8

Jim (previous):

Yes, Christ is the Cornerstone of New Covenant Israel. Christ says in Matthew 21:42-43 that the Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) reject becomes the Cornerstone of the building, this building of which He becomes the Cornerstone being the builders’ (the Jews’) building (Israel).

Where does it even say that the building is Israel as you say. It is entirely unbiblical.

holdon:

It's all conjecture. The New Covenant is never called a building as far as I am aware. The assembly of Christ is. And that is NEVER called Israel.


Jim:

I never said that the New Covenant is the building, but that Israel is the building,

Where does it say that "Israel is the building"? Where?

No, the natural branches are both the broken-off natural branches (Jewish unbelievers) and the non-broken-off natural branches (Jewish believers).

What was it that they were broken off then?

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

Nowhere does it say that gentile believers "now are" part of Israel. Simply nowhere.


Jim:

Yes, it does, but you just don’t want to admit it.

Ephesians 2:12 ... you were at that time ... strangers from the covenants of the promise ....

This implicitly requires that the Ephesians now no longer be strangers.

Ephesians 2:19 ... you are no longer strangers ....

Here, in 2:19, Paul explicitly expresses what is implicitly required in 2:12.

Ephesians 2:12 ... you were at that time without Christ ....

This implicitly requires that the Ephesians now no longer be without Christ.

Ephesians 2:13 ... now, in Christ Jesus, you ....

Here, in 2:13, Paul explicitly expresses what is implicitly required in 2:12; the Ephesians are now in Christ Jesus and thus no longer without Christ.

Ephesians 2:12 ... you were at that time ... excluded from the citizenship of the Israel ....

This implicitly requires that the Ephesians now no longer be excluded from the citizenship of the Israel.

Ephesians 2:19 ... you are no longer ... neighbors (non-citizens), but the saints’ fellow citizens ....

Here, in 2:19, Paul explicitly expresses what is implicitly required in 2:12; the Ephesians are no longer neighbors (non-citizens), but the saints’ fellow citizens and thus no longer excluded from the citizenship of the Israel.

This is no different than Romans 7:5 and 8:9.

In Romans 7:5, Paul says, “For when we in the flesh, the sufferings of the sins which through the law worked in the body-parts of us for the to produce fruit to the death”

This implicitly requires that we now no longer be in the flesh.

In Romans 8:9, Paul says, “But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, if so Spirit of God dwells in you. Now, if anyone Spirit of God he does not have, this one is not His.”

Here, in 8:9, Paul explicitly expresses what is implicitly required in 7:5; the believers in Christ at Rome are no longer in the flesh. Now, as believers in Christ, having the Spirit, they are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit.


Jim

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

Where does it say that "Israel is the building"? Where?


Jesus:

Matthew 21:42 ... never did you read in the writings? Stone which they rejected, the builders, this One was made into Head of corner. From Lord it happened to it, and it is wonderful in eyes of us. ... Because of this, I say to you that it will be taken from you, the kingdom of the God, and it will be given to nation doing the fruits of it.


Jim:

The Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) reject becomes the Cornerstone of the building. It’s the builders’ (the Jews&#8217 building. It’s their building. It isn’t someone else’s building. It’s the Jews’ building. Further, this building (the Jews’ building) of which Christ is made the Cornerstone is identified as a nation. It’s the Jews’ building, the Jews’ nation. It’s Israel. Christ is made the Cornerstone of Israel, the builders (the Jews) of which (Israel) reject Him.


holdon:

What was it that they were broken off then?


Jim:

The unbelieving part of the tree (Israel) is broken off from the believing part of the tree (Israel), Christ Himself having become the Root of the believing part of the tree (Israel), the Cornerstone of the believing part of the building (Israel).


Peter:

(ASV) Acts 3:12 ... Peter ... answered ... Ye men of Israel ... 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus, whom ye delivered up ... 14 ... ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead ... 17 ... I know that in ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 ... the things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out ... 22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you. 23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. ... 26 Unto you, first, God, having raised up his Servant, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities. ... 4:8 ... Peter ... said unto them, Ye rulers of the people ... 10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that ... Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead ... 11 ... is the stone which was set at nought of you the builders, which was made the head of the corner. 12 And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.


Jim:

The very One whom the Jews rejected is God’s true Prophet to whom they must listen and in whom they must believe in order not to be excluded/destroyed from among God’s people (believing Israel).

He is the Prophet of the people (believing Israel), the Cornerstone of the building (believing Israel).

Unbelieving Jews are excluded/destroyed (broken off) from among God’s people (believing Israel) by their unbelief toward this Prophet (Christ) of the people (believing Israel), this Cornerstone (Christ) of the building (believing Israel).


Jim

 

[holdon]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

Nowhere does it say that gentile believers "now are" part of Israel. Simply nowhere.


Jim:

Yes, it does, but you just don’t want to admit it.

No of course I won't admit, because it is not Scriptural. Your logic is faulty: if God had in the past a choice nation: let's say France. Those outside France were then without the privileges of living in France. Like the gentiles were without those of Israel.
But if God now has made a NEW choice nation: let's say the US. Then those of France as well as those outside France need to come to that NEW nation and become fellow-citizens of this new nation. It is not only for those of France: that distinction (partitioning wall) no longer applies: all may come to the US. That's the analogy of Eph. 2. What's so difficult to understand?

 

[holdon]

Where does it say that "Israel is the building"? Where?


Jesus:

Matthew 21:42 ... never did you read in the writings? Stone which they rejected, the builders, this One was made into Head of corner. From Lord it happened to it, and it is wonderful in eyes of us. ... Because of this, I say to you that it will be taken from you, the kingdom of the God, and it will be given to nation doing the fruits of it.


Jim:

The Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) reject becomes the Cornerstone of the building. It’s the builders’ (the Jews’) building. It’s their building. It isn’t someone else’s building. It’s the Jews’ building. Further, this building (the Jews’ building) of which Christ is made the Cornerstone is identified as a nation. It’s the Jews’ building, the Jews’ nation. It’s Israel. Christ is made the Cornerstone of Israel, the builders (the Jews) of which (Israel) reject Him.

Again, you imagine a lot of things: but they're not Scripture. Nowhere is it said that the building is Israel. The builders (not building) rejected the Cornerstone. Now, God builds. And there you're reasoning breaks down again.

holdon:

What was it that they were broken off then?


Jim:

The unbelieving part of the tree (Israel) is broken off from the believing part of the tree (Israel), Christ Himself having become the Root of the believing part of the tree (Israel), the Cornerstone of the believing part of the building (Israel).

Paul doesn't speak of different trees in Rom 11. If you say Israel = the root and Christ = the root, you have two different trees in fact. And again you reasoning breaks down in view of Scripture.

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,

holdon:

Again, you imagine a lot of things: but they're not Scripture. Nowhere is it said that the building is Israel. The builders (not building) rejected the Cornerstone. Now, God builds. And there you're reasoning breaks down again.


Jim:

The Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) reject is made the Cornerstone of the building. Who are the builders who reject Christ? The Jews. How is the building that the builders (the Jews) build not the builders' (the Jews') building? God is not the builder (singular) who rejects the Stone (Christ). Rather, it is the builders (plural / the Jews) who reject the Stone (Christ). Who does the prophecy say builds the building? The builders (plural / the Jews), the ones who reject the Stone (Christ), are stated to be the ones who build the building. It's their building. The irony of this prophecy is that it is the very Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) of the building reject that is made the Cornerstone of the builders' (the Jews') building. And what is the builders' (the Jews') building?




Jim

 

[holdon]

Jim:

The Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) reject is made the Cornerstone of the building.

But which building?

Who are the builders who reject Christ? The Jews. How is the building that the builders (the Jews) build not the builders' (the Jews') building? God is not the builder (singular) who rejects the Stone (Christ).

No, God is now building the Church: a holy temple, a habitation of God in Spirit.

It has nothing to do with Israel or what Jews in His time were building. Jews would have built with Christ as an ordinary stone; but He didn't fit in their system. God has made something completely NEW, keyword of Eph. 2. That didn't exist before, nor was it even known: it was a mystery: See Eph 3. Christ has been made corner stone of that new building. This is again proof that the idea that this is somehow a continuation of Israel is a ludicrous one. He was rejected by that system...

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

No, God is now building the Church: a holy temple, a habitation of God in Spirit.

It has nothing to do with

Israel or what Jews in His time were building. Jews would have built with Christ as an ordinary stone; but He didn't fit in their system. God has made something completely NEW, keyword of Eph. 2. That didn't exist before, nor was it even known: it was a mystery: See Eph 3. Christ has been made corner stone of that new building. This is again proof that the idea that this is somehow a continuation of Israel is a ludicrous one. He was rejected by that system...

Jim:

You’re saying that building of which the Stone (Christ) was made the Cornerstone is not in anyway associated with the builders of the building. But the point of the prophecy is that it is THE BUILDER’S OWN BUILDING of which the Stone (Christ) became the Cornerstone. That’s the point of the prophecy.

This is also Paul’s point in Romans 11:23-24, where he states, “And those ones, if ever they would not continue in the unbelief, they will be engrafted, for able He is, the God, again to engraft them. For if you, out of the according-to-nature, you were cut out, wild olive tree, and against nature you were engrafted into cultivated olive tree, how much more these ones, the ones according to nature, will be engrafted THEIR OWN TREE.

The tree was not something with which Jewish unbelievers had never been associated. If it were, then they would not have originally been a part of it, and consequently they would not have been “broken off” by their unbelief. It’s THEIR OWN TREE, as Paul states, in which the believing natural branches (Jewish believers) REMAINED by their belief toward Christ, and it’s THEIR OWN TREE, as Paul states, from which the unbelieving natural branches (Jewish unbelievers) were BROKEN OFF by their unbelief toward Christ, and it’s THEIR OWN TREE (the Jews’ tree) into which believing foreign branches (Gentile believers) were being ENGRAFTED. It’s THEIR (THE JEWS&#8217 TREE. The saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew, comprise the branches of THEIR (THE JEWS&#8217 OWN TREE.

The One (Christ) whom the Jews rejected became the Root of the Jews’ own tree, and the Jews who rejected Him were removed from their own tree by their unbelief toward Him.

Likewise, the Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) rejected became the Cornerstone of the builders’ (the Jews&#8217 own building, and the builders who rejected Him were removed from their own building by the unbelief toward Him.

The thing of which Christ is the Cornerstone and the Root is not something with which Jewish unbelievers had never been associated. It’s THEIR OWN BUILDING. They were included among the original builders. It’s THEIR OWN TREE. They were included among the original branches. And they were removed from it (their own building/tree) by their unbelief toward Christ.

This is why Paul says in Romans 9:1-5 of the Jewish unbelievers that it’s THEIR OWN ADOPTION and THEIR OWN COVENANTS in which they are NOT participating because of their unbelief toward Christ.

Then Paul says in 9:6 that this is NOT a failure of God’s word, and he spends the rest of chapters 9-11 explaining that God has ordained the fullness of the Gentiles to precede the fullness of the Jews into THE JEWS’ OWN TREE (the believing part of Israel), of which Christ was made the Root ... which is THE JEWS’ OWN BUILDING, of which Christ was made the Cornerstone.

In the true-Prophet prophecy in Acts 3, the Jewish unbelievers are excluded/destroyed from among THEIR OWN PEOPLE (ISRAEL) by their unbelief toward the true Prophet (Christ). We later see Gentile believers joining Jewish believers as the true “people” (Israel) of God under this true “Prophet.”

In both the Cornerstone prophecy and the true-Prophet prophecy and in the olive-tree analogy, we see Jewish unbelievers being excluded from their own people (believing Israel) UNTIL the Gentile believers have joined the Jewish believers as the people (believing Israel) of God.

This is why Paul identifies the Israel that believes in Christ in Romans 9:6-8 as the children of the promise / the children of God, whom he identifies in 4:13-16 and 8:14-18 as “us/we,” the saints (believers in Christ), both Gentile and Jew.

And this is why Paul says in Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6 that the Ephesians USED TO BE excluded from the citizenship of Israel and that they USED TO BE strangers from the covenants of the promise.


holdon:

Paul doesn't speak of different trees in Rom 11. If you say Israel = the root and Christ = the root, you have two different trees in fact. And again you reasoning breaks down in view of Scripture.


Jim:

I never said what you're saying I said. Paul speaks of one cultivated olive tree divided into two parts in Romans 11:16-24, just as he speaks one Israel divided into two parts in 11:25-27. Paul analogizes Israel in 11:25-27 as the tree in 11:16-24. This division of Israel into two parts explains Paul's description of two different Israels in Romans 9:6-8 (the believing part of the tree / Israel in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27) and in Romans 9:31-32 and 11:7-11 (the unbelieving part of the tree / Israel in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27).


Jim

 

[Terral]

Hi holdon and Jim:

Holdon >> No, God is now building the Church: a holy temple, a habitation of God in Spirit. It has nothing to do with Israel . . . This is again proof that the idea that this is somehow a continuation of Israel is a ludicrous one. He was rejected by that system...

Jim’s Reply > You’re saying that building of which the Stone (Christ) was made the Cornerstone is not in anyway associated with the builders of the building. But the point of the prophecy is that it is THE BUILDER’S OWN BUILDING of which the Stone (Christ) became the Cornerstone. That’s the point of the prophecy.

Holdon is correct in that God is currently building a “Body of Christ” in heaven that Satan, Israel and Old Testament Prophecy never envisioned. Yes Jim, we are saying that the building of which the Stone was made the ‘Head of the corner’ (Capstone) is NOT in anyway associated with Israel of the flesh at all. Jim fails to realize that “Israel” can see the Prophecy aspects of Scripture, but they see NOTHING contained under Paul’s “The Mystery”.

“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone (akrogoniaios = #204), in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom ‘you also’ are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.” Ephesians 2:19-22.

Paul has explained how the individual members of this “whole building” being fitted together, and growing into “a holy temple of the Lord,” are being ‘sealed in Him’ (Eph. 1:13-14) by hearing and believing OUR GOSPEL. Very simply, this means God is taking members from Israel of the flesh ‘and’ the Gentiles and baptizing them into the “one body” being characterized as the “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12). Right away this ‘excludes’ Israel of the flesh as a nation from having active participation in this “The Mystery” household, which is the primary lesson Paul is teaching Peter, John and James in the famous meeting in Jerusalem:

"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among THE GENTILES a people for His name.” Acts 15:14.

The “people for His name” is our “Body of Christ” composed predominantly of Gentiles with a scattering of Jews obedient to ‘our gospel’ called to join them. Paul describes this aspect of his ministry as preaching to the Gentiles ONLY, saying,

“But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son “IN” me (Col 1:27) so that I might preach Him AMONG THE GENTILES, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.” Galatians 1:15-17.

Paul teaches the Galatians that his gospel is “NOT according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Gal 1:11-12). In fact, Paul was given yet another ‘revelation’ from Christ in HEAVEN, so “that I went up; and I submitted to them THE GOSPEL which I preach AMONG THE GENTILES . . .”. Gal 2:1-2. Again, Israel of the flesh has never envisioned the construction of this “God’s household” being built upon Jesus Christ as the “Head of the Corner,” as this habitation of His Spirit is being constructed where? :0) “. . . ‘you also’ are being built together into a dwelling of God IN THE SPIRIT . . .”.

To build an accurate picture of what God is building “IN THE SPIRIT,” you must come to realize that Paul is describing a pyramid-like structure (diagram) being built from the ‘top’ down to the bottom in reverse order of a building on earth. The Greek term above (akrogoniaios = #204) is describing the Head of the corner and no regular cornerstone at all:

Akrogoniaios #204:

akrogoniaios denotes "a chief corner-stone" (from akros, "highest, extreme," gonia, "a corner, angle"), Eph_2:20 and 1_Pet_2:6. In the Sept., Isaiah_28:16

This rarely used Greek term is derived from joining of ‘akros’ (the farthest bounds, uttermost parts, end, highest, extreme) and ‘gonia’ (corner a. an external angle, a corner b. internal corner, i.e. a secret place) meaning in this case the “uppermost extreme -head- of the corner.” The accurate way to see this Temple of the Lord is by visualizing a snow cone being constructed from the bottom to the top, then turn the entire thing upside down to place Christ at the “uppermost extreme head of the corner,” or the very place where all four corners become “one” atop our Pyramid. The diagram shows Christ as the “Head of the Body” (Eph 1:22, etc.) with the Apostles and Prophets becoming the “Foundation” upon which the Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers (Eph. 4:11) are also being placed in reverse order from the top to the bottom. God places each member of Christ’s BODY (this is NOT the Kingdom “Bride” called via the “Gospel of the Kingdom” for Church #1 here), “each one of them, in the body, just as He desires.” 1Cor. 12:18.

Believers in 'our gospel' will all stand before Christ as His Judgment Seat (2Cor. 5:10) and receive rewards “so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” The members of our Body of Christ with things ‘rightly divided,’ dispensing Pauline Grace Doctrine ‘accurately handled’ (2Tim. 2:15), are earning positions ‘high’ atop this Temple of the Lord directly under Christ as the Capstone. However, those of you distorting the “wisdom given him,” even though you are saved, are having your heavenly garment darkened with all kinds of black and sooty inclusions (“yet so as through fire.” 1Cor 3:15) added to your previously white garment; as you earn a low position inside the enlarging “Body of Christ.” As with any Pyramid, we have few precious stones (sons) at the top and MANY common stones at the bottom, finding each member of Christ’s body running a race against all the others in direct competition for the ‘higher’ positions. :0) Therefore, every ChristianForums.com “Body of Christ” writer will have every word of his testimony placed on the altar and under the microscope on that Judgment Day and the gold, silver and precious stone reward chips will fall where they may; which means those of you teaching MYTHS and false “Replacement Theology” Dogma will see your rewards handed over to another. Therefore, please continue stumbling around in the dark insisting that Terral is full of himself and cannot see the forest for the trees, because I can see these things by His Spirit clear as day and all of your precious rewards are graciously accepted. :0)

Jim > This is also Paul’s point in Romans 11:23-24, where he states, “And those ones, if ever they would not continue in the unbelief, they will be engrafted, for able He is, the God, again to engraft them. For if you, out of the according-to-nature, you were cut out, wild olive tree, and against nature you were engrafted into cultivated olive tree, how much more these ones, the ones according to nature, will be engrafted THEIR OWN TREE.

A correct understanding of Paul’s Romans 9-11 “Israel” statements must include the knowledge that he is writing during the 30 AD to 61 AD period contained within the Book of Acts, which is still ‘before’ his “The Mystery” was revealed in the Prison Epistles. Paul is still “preaching the Kingdom” to Israel of the flesh (Gospel of the Kingdom = Gospel #1) AND preaching the “Gospel of the Grace of God” (Acts 20:24). Paul is writing this Roman Epistle in light of Israel’s “Transgression” (Rom. 11:11), but God had yet to close the door on Israel at the time this letter was originally written. The final three verses (Rom. 16:25-27) were added to Paul’s already circulating Roman Epistle ‘after’ the close of Acts, because by that time his “revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Rom. 11:25) was well underway.

Paul is saying membership in this “Body of Christ” has everything to do with obeying THE GOSPEL and God can graft Israel (natural branches) into the Rich Root (Christ) with even less effort than He grafted in the members of this wild olive tree. Jim still sees ‘two trees,’ when in fact there is only ‘one body’ grafted into Christ Himself having NOTHING whatsoever to do with Israel of the flesh very much ‘blind’ (Rom. 11:25) to these things. Jim forgets that Israel struggles under the ‘spirit of stupor’ (Rom. 11:8) and is being made “Jealous” (Rom. 10:19, 11:11) in the process telling you right away that the believers in our gospel (Children of Promise = Rom. 9:6-8) have NOTHING to do with Israel of the flesh (Rom 9:1-5).

Jim > It’s THEIR OWN TREE, as Paul states, in which the believing natural branches (Jewish believers) REMAINED by their belief toward Christ, and it’s THEIR OWN TREE . . . OWN TREE.

No sir. Every highlight in Jim’s testimony above displays his own BLINDNESS, as if there are many TREES grafted into Christ. His first problem is that Paul has disqualified Israel of the flesh from the race to include only the believers in OUR GOSPEL in the ‘ONE BODY’ of Christ.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who DID NOT pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith (Rom 1:16-17); but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, DID NOT arrive at that law. Why? Because they did NOT pursue it by faith, but as though it were BY WORKS. They stumbled over the stumbling stone . . .”. Romans 9:30-32.

What does this single truth do to Jim’s “THEIR OWN TREE?” :0) Shall we conclude by God’s Word that every member of “ISRAEL’S TREE” has stumbled over Christ to miss the “Body of Christ” boat? No. Every word of Paul’s own commentary must be brought through the sifter established way back in Romans 1 and elaborated upon in Romans 10,

“For I am not ashamed of THE GOSPEL, for “IT” is the power of God for salvation to everyone WHO BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous shall live by faith." Romans 1:16-17.

“Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their (Israel’s) salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but NOT in accordance with knowledge. For NOT knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish THEIR OWN [stumbled = added works], they DID NOT subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to everyone WHO BELIEVES.” Romans 10:1-4.

Jim has no authority to include believing Gentiles with a stumbling and transgressing nation of Israel, as if ‘they’ already have a TREE established in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus. Eph 2:6. No sir. Believing Jews AND Gentiles are being baptized directly into Christ (Gal 3:27) by obeying OUR GOSPEL without regard to whether they belong to ‘earthly’ cultivated or wild olive trees. Israel as a nation has STUMBLED, just like Moses stumbled and was NOT allowed to lead Israel into the Promised Land, but that is the topic of another thread. :0)

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[holdon]

Jim:

You’re saying that building of which the Stone (Christ) was made the Cornerstone is not in anyway associated with the builders of the building. But the point of the prophecy is that it is THE BUILDER’S OWN BUILDING of which the Stone (Christ) became the Cornerstone. That’s the point of the prophecy.

?? I fail to see that conclusion.

This is also Paul’s point in Romans 11:23-24, where he states, “And those ones, if ever they would not continue in the unbelief, they will be engrafted, for able He is, the God, again to engraft them. For if you, out of the according-to-nature, you were cut out, wild olive tree, and against nature you were engrafted into cultivated olive tree, how much more these ones, the ones according to nature, will be engrafted THEIR OWN TREE.

Yes, Israel are the "natural branches" that is: descendant of Abraham. The tree represents Abraham's promise tree. But it requires faith to be on that root.

This is why Paul says in Romans 9:1-5 of the Jewish unbelievers that it’s THEIR OWN ADOPTION and THEIR OWN COVENANTS in which they are NOT participating because of their unbelief toward Christ.

Exactly: and thus those of vs 6 are not gentiles at all....

And this is why Paul says in Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6 that the Ephesians USED TO BE excluded from the citizenship of Israel and that they USED TO BE strangers from the covenants of the promise.

Yes. They had no part in that. But now, they do have part: (not in the old system: they could never be part of that), but in the NEW thing. Gentile AND Jewish believers have now BOTH part in an entirely NEW thing. The Jews of old never had part in it: it is an entirely NEW thing. It is the assembly of Christ, the body of Christ, an habition of God in Spirit.

 

[Jim1]

Hi holdon,


holdon:

Exactly: and thus those of vs 6 are not gentiles at all....


Jim:

Sure they are. All believers in Christ are the Israel in Romans 9:6. All believers participate in the covenants of the promise. You’re saying that the believing Jews are the heirs and the partakers of the promise through belief in Christ, excluding the believing Gentiles. You’re saying that they are two different groups, and that they are on two different levels. But Paul says that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow body members and fellow partakers of the promise (Ephesians 3:6) and fellow citizens (Ephesians 2:19). He does not describe two different groups, but one group, the “us” in Romans 4:16, the “we” in Romans 8:16, who are the children of the promise / the children of God in Romans 9:8, who are the “us” in Romans 9:24. It’s one group, and the members of this one group are “fellows,” which means that what is true of them is true of all of them. You admit that the non-broken-off natural branches in Romans 11:16-24 are the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27, but then you turn around and deny that the engrafted foreign branches in 11:16-24, who are the non-broken-off natural branches’ fellow believing branches, are included in the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27, as if the believing branches, both the non-broken-off natural and the engrafted foreign, were not all fellow believing branches, as if the believing branches did not all partake of the same Root, as if they were not all one group, as if they were not the “us/we” (one group) in Romans 4:16, 8:16, 9:8 and 9:24. Your reason for denying this has nothing to do with what Paul says, because what Paul says confirms that all believers are one group, the fellow citizens of the believing part of Israel. Your reason for denying this is your chosen theological position, a position which is incompatible with what the Biblical text says. It is in the context of the Israel in Romans 9:6-8 receiving what the Israel in 9:31-32 is not receiving that the Gentiles in 9:30 are receiving what the Israel in 9:31-32 is not receiving. Paul could not have referred to the Gentiles in 9:30 if they were not included in the Israel in 9:6-8, and he could not have identified the Israel in 9:6-8 as the children of the promise / the children of God (9:8) if the ones comprising this Israel in 9:6-8 were not the “us” (the children of the promise) in 4:16 (the saints, both Gentile and Jew) and the “we” (the children of God) in 8:16 (the saints, both Gentile and Jew). You admit that the Jewish believers (the believing part of Israel) comprise the building (the believing part of Israel) whose Cornerstone is Christ in Matthew 21:42-43 and 1 Peter 2:1-10, but you deny that Gentile believers are fellow citizens of this building (the believing part of Israel), though Paul plainly states they are in Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6.


Jim