EO & evolution

[rusmeister]

Like I said, we can, and I have actually observed the layers of rock or sedimentary formations. It is as observable as the moon orbiting the earth. Fossils of certain animals exist in layers of sediment where there are NO human fossils, and these layers were formed some finite time before the layers with human fossils above them. How much time? I suppose it doesn't really matter to the discussion at hand, but it is a large number. I can go out and look at the fossil of an animal that died before any human was on earth. Yes, I am assuming that God is not involved in some sort of divine trickery, that He would not create fossils just for the purpose of deceiving us into thinking that they existed a very long time ago. Just the same I assume that He does not bend the light of the Sun and Stars for the purpose of tricking us into thinking that the earth orbits the Sun.

I can imagine it being a large number or a small number. I can imagine hitherto unconsidered variables that would change all of your calculations and assumptions. I understand that that is what it looks like to you now. I'm just saying that I think in a hundred years it's likely to look like something else to someone armed with different theories, data and variables. No divine trickery required. I think that it is precisely the theological truths that will remain constant, by contrast. And I'm still looking for a narrative that combines evolution with the Fall that makes sense.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

don't hold your breath, mate. I've been asking for just ONE, ANY poster to give that narrative and we're on page 23 with nothing still.....:o:o

And I'm still looking for a narrative that combines evolution with the Fall that makes sense.

 

[jckstraw72]

Like I said, we can, and I have actually observed the layers of rock or sedimentary formations. It is as observable as the moon orbiting the earth. Fossils of certain animals exist in layers of sediment where there are NO human fossils, and these layers were formed some finite time before the layers with human fossils above them. How much time? I suppose it doesn't really matter to the discussion at hand, but it is a large number. I can go out and look at the fossil of an animal that died before any human was on earth. Yes, I am assuming that God is not involved in some sort of divine trickery, that He would not create fossils just for the purpose of deceiving us into thinking that they existed a very long time ago. Just the same I assume that He does not bend the light of the Sun and Stars for the purpose of tricking us into thinking that the earth orbits the Sun.

yes, of course we literally see the fossils - but we didn't observe them as living creatures. we don't know when that was. the fossils don't come with a date on them. how we date them is necessarily bound up with assumptions.

 

[Kristos]

yes, of course we literally see the fossils - but we didn't observe them as living creatures. we don't know when that was. the fossils don't come with a date on them. how we date them is necessarily bound up with assumptions.

And which assumption(s) exactly do you disagree with? That supernatural trickery was not involved?

 

[jckstraw72]

And which assumption(s) exactly do you disagree with? That supernatural trickery was not involved?

uniformitarianism -- the assumption that we can get back before the Fall using the science that we know of the fallen world. this assumes away the Fall, which is the same as assuming away Paradise.

 

[Columba7]

And which assumption(s) exactly do you disagree with? That supernatural trickery was not involved?

Satan planted dinosaur fossils to tempt people away from God.

 

[jckstraw72]

Satan planted dinosaur fossils to tempt people away from God.

i hope you don't actually believe that ...

 

[Columba7]

i hope you don't actually believe that ...

No, I don't, but I have an evangelical friend who does My dad is a biochemist so I am pretty comfortable with the evolutionary model of things.

 

[jckstraw72]

No, I don't, but I have an evangelical friend who does My dad is a biochemist so I am pretty comfortable with the evolutionary model of things.

i've heard some even say that GOD planted fossils to test our faith. i don't know why this proposition is more acceptable to them than evolution.

 

[Kristos]

uniformitarianism -- the assumption that we can get back before the Fall using the science that we know of the fallen world. this assumes away the Fall, which is the same as assuming away Paradise.

That would be an unnecessary assumption. The geological layers were deposited as-is regardless of any changes concerning the wages of sin. They are there one way or another. You could try to superimpose an inflection point on them to look for a change, but it's completely unnecessary to the method. The layers are the layers, whether it's an ice-age or a heat wave - it doesn't matter - no uniformitarianism necessary, just simple observation of what is there.

 

[jckstraw72]

That would be an unnecessary assumption. The geological layers were deposited as-is regardless of any changes concerning the wages of sin. They are there one way or another. You could try to superimpose an inflection point on them to look for a change, but it's completely unnecessary to the method. The layers are the layers, whether it's an ice-age or a heat wave - it doesn't matter - no uniformitarianism necessary, just simple observation of what is there.

the observation shows you layers. the dating of those layers involves interpretation.

 

[Kristos]

Satan planted dinosaur fossils to tempt people away from God.

Is that really more far-fetched than saying that God did it?

If nothing died until after the fall, then we should not find anything that died more than 7000 years ago. All fossils should be in shallow surface layers of sediment. This is obviously not the case, so how did they get where they are? God or Satan - take your pick...is there any other explanation?

 

[Kristos]

the observation shows you layers. the dating of those layers involves interpretation.

and dinosaur fossils are not in the same layer as humans. Period, end of story. Doesn't matter how we date the layers - they are in different layers.

 

[ArmyMatt]

and dinosaur fossils are not in the same layer as humans. Period, end of story. Doesn't matter how we date the layers - they are in different layers.

that doesn't show evolution, that just shows that they died before us in a certain layer of strata

 

[Protoevangel]

and dinosaur fossils are not in the same layer as humans. Period, end of story. Doesn't matter how we date the layers - they are in different layers.

I seem to remember humans having ages of hundreds, and in some cases nearly a thousand years. I doubt any animals lived that long...

 

[Protoevangel]

Additionally, fossils are not that common. It takes certain conditions for these bones to be fossilized. So there were no humans in these areas that contain the animal fossils...

 

[rusmeister]

Is that really more far-fetched than saying that God did it?

If nothing died until after the fall, then we should not find anything that died more than 7000 years ago. All fossils should be in shallow surface layers of sediment. This is obviously not the case, so how did they get where they are? God or Satan - take your pick...is there any other explanation?

I'm curious, really. Why do you think the Fall happened 7,000 years ago?

 

[Kristos]

I'm curious, really. Why do you think the Fall happened 7,000 years ago?

Simply add up all the years in the genealogy of Adam, and voila. There is a more precise number, but 7000 is easier to type If we are going to take the historically literal exegesis of Genesis seriously, then we must date the fall to about 7000 years ago, no?

 

[gzt]

7521 years ago.

 

[jckstraw72]

Is that really more far-fetched than saying that God did it?

If nothing died until after the fall, then we should not find anything that died more than 7000 years ago. All fossils should be in shallow surface layers of sediment. This is obviously not the case, so how did they get where they are? God or Satan - take your pick...is there any other explanation?

you're presenting this as if there are only 2 options:

1. evolutionary science is absolutely correct
2. God or Satan is tricking us

but what about the obvious third option -- we deceive ourselves, and the science is incorrect?

God is not the deceiver - He has given direct revelations of the creation and history of the world to mankind and we have them recorded for us in Scripture and in Patristic writings. Moses actually saw creation happen - he was not just given a story. St. Isaac the Syrian and St. Gregory of Sinai, for example, teach that the creation of the world is one of the primary visions of the Saint. Most recently, Elder Joseph of Vatopaidi had such a vision and saw creation happen just as Moses recorded. It's not God's fault if we choose to ignore these.

your assumption here is that deep = really old, because you are assuming a consistent rate of laying down sediment. you did not observe these layers being laid down - you only observe the layers after the fact. dating them is a matter of interpretation.