Entering the Covenant

[Not David]

Are babies and children not part of the New Covenant?

 

[Tree of Life]

Are babies and children not part of the New Covenant?

Not the Baptist covenant. But they are part of the Presbyterian covenant!

 

[Not David]

Not the Baptist covenant. But they are part of the Presbyterian covenant!

Do you believe in Baptism as the entrance to the New Covenant?

 

[Tree of Life]

Do you believe in Baptism as the entrance to the New Covenant?

In an external sense, yes. I acknowledge a distinction between the visible and invisible church.

 

[Blade]

no.. God does not hear unrighteous/unbelievers. It is written "If I had cherished iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not have listened. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil. The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will.."

He hears the pray for salvation.. duh..

 

[New Birth]

Do you believe in Baptism as the entrance to the New Covenant?

I believe according to scripture Baptism in Jesus' name is apart of the new covenant. It is being born again of water Jesus spoke about in John3

 

[New Birth]

In an external sense, yes. I acknowledge a distinction between the visible and invisible church.

visible and invisible? external sense? these are not biblical terms. Do you have any scriptures that support your terms and ideas?

 

[Jonaitis]

I never understood how Christ is the substance of a covenant, yet the members of the covenant can be externally separate from the substance and still be in the covenant. Seems like a contradiction...

 

[Tree of Life]

I never understood how Christ is the substance of a covenant, yet the members of the covenant can be externally separate from the substance and still be in the covenant. Seems like a contradiction...

They enjoy temporal and external benefits of the covenant but not eternal salvation. They enjoy the preaching of the word, church discipline, the community of the church, etc...

 

[Tree of Life]

visible and invisible? external sense? these are not biblical terms. Do you have any scriptures that support your terms and ideas?

Yes! Check out Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, and Matthew 22:1-14.

 

[Jonaitis]

They enjoy temporal and external benefits of the covenant but not eternal salvation. They enjoy the preaching of the word, church discipline, the community of the church, etc...

Still, if Christ is the covenant's substance, how is there an extra compartment for some members to be separate from the substance? Makes no sense.

 

[Tree of Life]

Still, if Christ is the substance, how is there an extra compartment for some to be separate from the substance? Makes no sense.

Take it up with Jesus. He's the one who said that there would be some "in me" who bear no fruit (John 15).

 

[Dave-W]

That's a strange dichotomy. Why do you think it's appropriate to separate the idea of getting saved from the idea of growing in grace and being conformed to the image of Christ?

Why do you think it strange? Joining the covenant / getting saved is described as New Birth. We are born and we grow over time. Salvation is a one time event whereas growth in HIM is a life long process.

 

[Jonaitis]

Take it up with Jesus. He's the one who said that there would be some "in me" who bear no fruit (John 15).

Jesus was talking to his Jewish counterparts, his disciples. This text is parallel to Romans 11.

If you interpret it as members in Christ, then you believe in potential apostasy of those saved. He's the substance, right?

 

[Dave-W]

Do you believe in Baptism as the entrance to the New Covenant?

No. As Derek Prince taught it, it is the “funeral and burial for the fallen nature” which died on New Birth.

 

[Tree of Life]

Why do you think it strange? Joining the covenant / getting saved is described as New Birth. We are born and we grow over time. Salvation is a one time event whereas growth in HIM is a life long process.

I see the Bible teaching that we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. I don't see salvation as something that happens at one time.

 

[Tree of Life]

Jesus was talking to his Jewish counterparts, his disciples. This text is parallel to Romans 11.

He's talking to Jews, so what?

If you interpret it as members in Christ, then you believe in potential apostasy of those saved. He's the substance, right?

I believe in apostasy for those who are "in Christ" in some sense. Jesus says that there will be some "in me" who fall away. These are not those who are truly saved, but they are truly "in him". Think about that!

 

[Jonaitis]

Also, if we take the fruitless branches as former members of Christ, then why does he say "the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine"? So, these unfruitful branches were abiding and did not bear fruit? Or did not abide and yet were in Christ? Seems our Lord is confusing us, or your interpretation doesn't fit.

 

[Tree of Life]

Also, if we take the fruitless branches as former members of Christ, then why does he say "the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine"? So, these unfruitful branches were abiding and did not bear fruit? Seems our Lord is confusing us.

They were in him but did not remain in him. They were cut off because they bore no fruit. They bore no fruit because they did not abide.

Could you explain what Jesus means when he says that these fruitless branches are "in me"?

 

[New Birth]

Yes! Check out Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, and Matthew 22:1-14.

Matt chapter 13 clearly tell that the devil sowed tares among the wheat. The tares were not in covenant with God the were of the devil.
Matt 22 again speaking of those that are called to Christ but have not made themselves ready. They too are clearly not in a covenant relationship with God. Perhaps they have backslidden out of the covenant of God.
I do not believe you have presented scriptures that support the belief that non believers are within covenant with God. A person cant even be born again without faith "belief".