Entering the Covenant

[Tree of Life]

But to be "in him" requires faith.
It is because they got stunted in their growth for some reason.

MOST of the NT is not about how to get saved/enter the New Covenant; rather it is about how to live AFTER salvation.

That's a strange dichotomy. Why do you think it's appropriate to separate the idea of getting saved from the idea of growing in grace and being conformed to the image of Christ?

 

[Jonaitis]

I don't disagree with this at all. What's your problem with the way that Westminster puts it?

V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the Gospel:[9] under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come;[10] which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,[11] by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.[12]

VI. Under the Gospel, when Christ, the substance,[13] was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper:[14] which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory, yet, in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,[15] to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;[16] and is called the New Testament.[17] There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations.[18]

That the Covenant of Grace could have been administered differently. The gospel is what saves, the same covenant, same administration. The only difference is that they received it in promise form, which was still progressively being revealed, and we receive it at its full revelation. The Old Covenant is an entirely different covenant than the New Covenant. Just because it pointed to Christ, doesn't mean it was a covenant of grace. The New Covenant actually administers total redemption, being a member of the Old Covenant did not do this at all. All members under the New Covenant are saved, no exception according to Jeremiah 31:31-34 and so on. The Old Covenant members only enjoyed temporal salvation from their enemies and the enjoyment of the land. Jews who heard or saw Christ presented in the types and shadows were retroactively saved by the Covenant to come, not by the things they saw by itself.

 

[New Birth]

Why does Jesus say that there are those "in him" who will not bear fruit? (John 15)

I believe he is speaking of those who may have believed but for some reason did not continue in Christ and fell away. He is not speaking of unbelievers.

 

[Tree of Life]

That the Covenant of Grace could have been administered differently. The gospel is what saves, the same covenant, same administration. The only difference is that they received it in promise form, which was still progressively being revealed, and we receive it at its full revelation.

Sounds here like you're contradicting yourself. You say that the covenant could not have been administered differently, but then you go on to note how the gospel was administered differently to OT people than to us. What gives?

The Old Covenant is an entirely different covenant than the New Covenant. Just because it pointed to Christ, doesn't mean it was a covenant of grace. The New Covenant actually administers total redemption, being a member of the Old Covenant did not do this at all. All members under the New Covenant are saved, no exception according to Jeremiah 31:31-34 and so on. The Old Covenant members only enjoyed temporal salvation from their enemies and the enjoyment of the land. Jews who heard or saw Christ presented in the types and shadows were retroactively saved by the Covenant to come, not by the things they saw by itself.

I don't believe that your position is really all that different from Westminster. You admit that the New Covenant was hidden in the Old (my words, not yours) in the types and shadows and that Old Covenant believers grasped onto Christ through these things. Westminster says that the OT was the same covenant of grace as in the NT and that the types and shadows fell away with the arrival of Christ the substance.

I think where it gets sticky is the implications for covenant life today. I am much more comfortable saying that unbelievers are in the New Covenant in the same way that they were in the Old Covenant. While Jeremiah does promise that all in the covenant will know God, what makes you think that the New Covenant that Jeremiah spoke of is fully here? Why couldn't the New Covenant, along with all of the other prophetic promises, be "already here and not yet"? The New Covenant is not fully fulfilled and will not be fully fulfilled until Jesus returns. When he returns, all will know him.

 

[Tree of Life]

I believe he is speaking of those who may have believed but for some reason did not continue in Christ and fell away. He is not speaking of unbelievers.

Why couldn't he be speaking of those who became part of him in a formal, external sense only? Like branches glued onto a vine but not enjoying its nourishing, life giving sap.

 

[New Birth]

Why couldn't he be speaking of those who became part of him in a formal, external sense only? Like branches glued onto a vine but not enjoying its nourishing, life giving sap.

because there is no such thing as becoming a part of him in a formal, external sense only....
The only way to become a part of the BRANCH is to be filled with his Spirit. Christ in you the hope of glory. There is a such thing as falling away from grace, but one cannot fall away if they were never a partaker of the covenant.

 

[Tree of Life]

because there is no such thing as becoming a part of him in a formal, external sense only....
The only way to become a part of the BRANCH is to be filled with his Spirit. Christ in you the hope of glory. There is a such thing as falling away from grace, but one cannot fall away if they were never a partaker of the covenant.

I don't see why I should accept this. How about this one:

There is such a thing as being attached to Jesus in an external sense only. Those who fall away never truly had faith which is why they ultimately fell away.

 

[FatalFantasy]

The Bible describes our relationship with God as a covenant relationship. The best modern day example we have of a covenant relationship is marriage. Is it possible to enter into covenant relationship with God as an unbeliever? Are there unbelievers in the covenant? Or are there only ever believers in the covenant?

Romans 2:14-15 New International Version (NIV)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[Jonaitis]

Tree of life,

I don't see where I contradicted. OT saints receive Christ by promise, NT receive Christ by promise. It is just that one party saw degrees of the promise, and the other sees the fullness of it. Abraham saw more of the promise than Noah, Moses saw more of the promise than Abraham, and so on until Christ came. The Covenant of Grace was never formally established at all, it was only progressively revealed until it occurred. This means that there was no Covenant of Grace in the OT, only promises.

Westminster says that the Old Covenant and New Covenant had an external and internal community, with promises set before the members, with the potential to have non-saved and saved members together. This is how Westminster can see it as one covenant. In the Old Covenant, it was just types and shadows and promises. In the New Covenant, it is the whole gospel preaching. But the members have the choice to receive those benefits.

This is too strange. I agree that the Old Covenant had believers with promises set forth, but it had to do with an entirely separate covenant with an entirely separate substance. It is possible for the Old Covenant is have had unbelievers, but it is not possible the New Covenant to have unbelievers. There was no Covenant of Grace in existence in the OT, just promises progressively being revealed.

Membership in the Old Covenant was by ethnicity and circumcision.

Membership in the New Covenant is regeneration and faith.

Promises were different in each covenant. One dealt with temporal things, the other dealt with eternal things.

 

[New Birth]

I don't see why I should accept this. How about this one:

There is such a thing as being attached to Jesus in an external sense only. Those who fall away never truly had faith which is why they ultimately fell away.

Again there is no such thing. There is only one way to be "attached" to Jesus and that is through the new covenant and no one enters the new covenant without truly having faith. Belief is a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you dont understand what the new covenant is. It is impossible to be attached to Christ without actual faith. Yet people who had real faith can lose faith and fall from grace.

 

[Tree of Life]

Tree of life,

I don't see where I contradicted. OT saints receive Christ by promise, NT receive Christ by promise. It is just that one party saw degrees of the promise, and the other sees the fullness of it. Abraham saw more of the promise than Noah, Moses saw more of the promise than Abraham, and so on until Christ came. The Covenant of Grace was never formally established at all, it was only progressively revealed until it occurred. This means that there was no Covenant of Grace in the OT, only promises.

Westminster says that the Old Covenant and New Covenant had an external and internal community, with promises set before the members, with the potential to have non-saved and saved members together. This is how Westminster can see it as one covenant. In the Old Covenant, it was just types and shadows and promises. In the New Covenant, it is the whole gospel preaching. But the members have the choice to receive those benefits.

This is too strange. I agree that the Old Covenant had believers with promises set forth, but it had to do with an entirely separate covenant with an entirely separate substance. It is possible for the Old Covenant is have had unbelievers, but it is not possible the New Covenant to have unbelievers. There was no Covenant of Grace in existence in the OT, just promises progressively being revealed.

London baptist confession says there was a COG in the OT:

3. This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency. ( Genesis 3:15; Hebrews 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 11:6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2, &c.; Acts 4:12; John 8:56 )

 

[Tree of Life]

Again there is no such thing. There is only one way to be "attached" to Jesus and that is through the new covenant and no one enters the new covenant without truly having faith. Belief is a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you dont understand what the new covenant is. It is impossible to be attached to Christ without actual faith. Yet people who had real faith can lose faith and fall from grace.

It is also possible that you don't understand what the New Covenant is.

And it is equally possible that there is "such a thing".

Ponder that!

 

[New Birth]

London baptist confession says there was a COG in the OT:

3. This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency. ( Genesis 3:15; Hebrews 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 11:6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2, &c.; Acts 4:12; John 8:56 )

The scriptures teach that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17

 

[Tree of Life]

The scriptures teach that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17

Amen!

 

[Jonaitis]

London baptist confession says there was a COG in the OT:

3. This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency. ( Genesis 3:15; Hebrews 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 11:6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2, &c.; Acts 4:12; John 8:56 )

I quoted this a while back...

 

[Tree of Life]

Membership in the Old Covenant was by ethnicity and circumcision.

Membership in the New Covenant is regeneration and faith.

Unless membership in both administrations of the covenant has an external and internal dimension. One became a member of the covenant externally in the OT via circumcision. But they were also called to circumcise their hearts (regeneration) (Deuteronomy 10:12-17).

One becomes a member of the New Covenant in an external sense via baptism, but only truly in an internal sense through this same heart circumcision that we call regeneration.

Promises were different in each covenant. One dealt with temporal things, the other dealt with eternal things.

Paul says that God promised to give Abraham the world (Romans 4:13). Jesus says that the meek will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5). Are there different things in view here, or the same thing?

 

[New Birth]

It is also possible that you don't understand what the New Covenant is.

And it is equally possible that there is "such a thing".

Ponder that!

to the first question the answer is NO
to the second answer the answer is NOT AS I UNDERSTAND THE NEW COVENANT.
Try to support your claim with scripture and I will definitely Ponder the scripture.
Correct me if Im wrong but it seem you are stating that a person can be in covenant with God and not be a believer, is that correct. Or a person can be "attached" to Jesus and not be a believer.

 

[Tree of Life]

to the first question the answer is NO
to the second answer the answer is NOT AS I UNDERSTAND THE NEW COVENANT.
Try to support your claim with scripture and I will definitely Ponder the scripture.
Correct me if Im wrong but it seem you are stating that a person can be in covenant with God and not be a believer, is that correct. Or a person can be "attached" to Jesus and not be a believer.

Yes on both accounts. All people are in the broken covenant that God made with Adam. Unbelievers will be condemned on the basis of that covenant. One can be attached to Christ in a merely external sense by being a member of the church but not a true believer.

 

[Jonaitis]

Unless membership in both administrations of the covenant has an external and internal dimension. One became a member of the covenant externally in the OT via circumcision. But they were also called to circumcise their hearts (regeneration) (Deuteronomy 10:12-17).

Still, the Old Covenant dealt with Israel and Canaan. All participants were only promised in this area.

Okay, Moses told them to circumcise their hearts, but not as a means for membership. Circumcision in the flesh is how you enter, regardless of any sort of regeneracy.

One becomes a member of the New Covenant in an external sense via baptism, but only truly in an internal sense through this same heart circumcision that we call regeneration.

This makes no sense.

A covenant has promises to the members, how can you enter and not experience them? It literally makes no sense. Old Covenant standing members all experienced the blessings of Abraham, and if they breach it they were cut off - not just from the community, but the blessings shared in the community. There is nothing anywhere that says you can be in a covenant, and it's community, without ever enjoying all the privileges with the other members. It is unfounded and makes no sense. A covenant member not enjoying covenant blessings? No, you're saying they can enjoy external things, while another class in the same covenant enjoys the whole package deal.

If baptism is the means to enter Christ's covenant, you have two options:

1. All members share all blessings, including total redemption in Christ.

2. Christ isn't the substance of the covenant, just on the sidelines of the covenant.

If he is the substance, members enjoy the substance period. If you agree, while hold infant membership, then you hold to potential apostasy from Christ (the substance) and falls under Arminianism. You can't be consistent, Tree of Life.

Paul says that God promised to give Abraham the world (Romans 4:13). Jesus says that the meek will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5). Are there different things in view here, or the same thing?

I made a post earlier about the dualistic nature of Abraham's covenant.

 

[New Birth]

Yes on both accounts. All people are in the broken covenant that God made with Adam. Unbelievers will be condemned on the basis of that covenant. One can be attached to Christ in a merely external sense by being a member of the church but not a true believer.

one is not a "member" of the Church until they are born again of water and the Spirit. A person is not connected to Christ through a covenant without being born again. Just because someone goes to a Church building and sits or even signs a membership card does not make the attached to Jesus. Maybe you should define "external sense".