Enter the Kingdom of God vs Inherit the Kingdom

d taylor · Sep 5, 2020

TibiasDad said:
I have no problem with any of this, and will only point out that the present tense "not condemned" is irretrievably tied to the present tense reality of belief! Wherever one reality exists, the other reality exists as well. The absence of one is an indicator of the absence of the other! Thus, the concept of both the present tense reality of belief and no condemnation, and a potential "future" present tense reality of belief and no condemnation are equally valid. In other words, since present tense "no condemnation" is dependent on present tense "believing", there is the necessity for the same realities at any future point of time for it to be equally true at that future point in time. You cannot separate the the two realities and say that " no condemnation " is permanent, but the believing may not be!

Doug

You would have to show (in the Bible) where once becoming a child of God that a person can undo/cease being a child of God. That, that is an action that can have a reality and that would have to have a reality on Gods part, God would have to declare a believer as no longer His child, and that is not what, not receiving and inheritance is about.

Just because a person on their behave may cease believing does not indicated that on God and His part, He stops calling that person his child.

Once understood correctly (how to receive eternal life) and a person places their faith in the correct object (The promised Messiah) they become a permanent child of God.

TibiasDad · Sep 6, 2020

d taylor said:
You would have to show (in the Bible) where once becoming a child of God that a person can undo/cease being a child of God. [/B]That, that is an action that can have a reality and that would have to have a reality on Gods part, God would have to declare a believer as no longer His child, and that is not what, not receiving and inheritance is about.

Just because a person on their behave may cease believing does not indicated that on God and His part, He stops calling that person his child.

Once understood correctly (how to receive eternal life) and a person places their faith in the correct object (The promised Messiah) they become a permanent child of God.

That has been shown many time before as being a distinct possibility in all the warning passages (Heb 6 & 10), in the exhortations of Jesus and other Biblical writers about the absolute necessity of remaining in the vine, and persevering to the end
(Jn 15, Heb 3:14, Rom 11:22, Col 1:23, 2:6, 2 Tim 3:14), and that by doing so, we will continue to grow in grace and "confirm [our] calling and election." (2 Pet 1:10). Add to this, Paul's declaration that we have an obligation to follow the Spirit's leading in order to "live", and if the believer doesn't he will " die"! (Rom 8:12-13)

Doug

FreeGrace2 · Sep 6, 2020

Andrewn said:
Every Christian has either Calvinist or Arminian understanding. Your understanding is Calvinist, and it is wrong.

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. But I know that both Calvinists and Arminians think there are only 2 theologies. And they are wrong as well.

This is all you need to know for now.

You have no idea what I need. That is rather snippy.

And I provided a list of Scriptures that tell us exactly how to have eternal life.

And not a peep out of you. Interesting.

Also, I said this:
"I asked about the immediate context for "outside" in v.15. Since you either do not understand my words, or you just didn't take the time to actually read v.14, I'll help you out.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

All the red words are the immediate context for "outside" at the beginning of v.15."

You mentioned "context" for v.15, and I gave you IMMEDIATE context.

And you said nothing.

We have "through the gates into the city. Outside..." Not too difficult to figure out. v.15 is about people who are OUTSIDE the gates of the city.

Care to explain?

FreeGrace2 · Sep 6, 2020

d taylor said: ↑
You would have to show (in the Bible) where once becoming a child of God that a person can undo/cease being a child of God.

TibiasDad said:
That has been shown many time before as being a distinct possibility in all the warning passages

This poster has no idea what he is talking about. There are NO verses that teach in plain language that any child of God can be un-born. No more than any human child can cease to be their parent's child.

The very idea is beyond ridiculous.

Once a child, always a child. Or, OCAC. No different than OSAS.

d taylor · Sep 6, 2020

TibiasDad said:
That has been shown many time before as being a distinct possibility in all the warning passages (Heb 6 & 10), in the exhortations of Jesus and other Biblical writers about the absolute necessity of remaining in the vine, and persevering to the end
(Jn 15, Heb 3:14, Rom 11:22, Col 1:23, 2:6, 2 Tim 3:14), and that by doing so, we will continue to grow in grace and "confirm [our] calling and election." (2 Pet 1:10). Add to this, Paul's declaration that we have an obligation to follow the Spirit's leading in order to "live", and if the believer doesn't he will " die"! (Rom 8:12-13)

Doug

Take Romans 8 show where dying is not dying a physical death as in Ananias and Sapphira or the believers who became sick or died for their actions at the Lords supper.

TibiasDad · Sep 6, 2020

d taylor said:
Take Romans 8 show where dying is not dying a physical death as in Ananias and Sapphira or the believers who became sick or died for their actions at the Lords supper.

You are equivocating! Hermeneutically, the life and death of Rom 8:12-13 have to be on the same plane; if the life is spiritual life then the death is spiritual death. The entirety of the chapter is about our spiritual state relative to God. Context, context, context!

Doug

FreeGrace2 · Sep 6, 2020

TibiasDad said:
You are equivocating! Hermeneutically, the life and death of Rom 8:12-13 have to be on the same plane; if the life is spiritual life then the death is spiritual death.

Given that this poster believes that salvation can be lost, he MUST defend the nonsensical idea that ETERNAL life can DIE.

Because Jesus said recipients of ETERNAL life CANNOT perish. John 10:28

d taylor · Sep 6, 2020

TibiasDad said:
You are equivocating! Hermeneutically, the life and death of Rom 8:12-13 have to be on the same plane; if the life is spiritual life then the death is spiritual death. The entirety of the chapter is about our spiritual state relative to God. Context, context, context!

Doug

Verse 11 is speaking of mortal bodies
Then why does the verse 13 state, For if you live according to the flesh you will die

A perfect place For God to make clear that a believer can die spiritually all was needed was spiritually after die. But no, all is said is that if a believer lives according to the flesh they will die.

So just as clear as these verse state how a person receives Eternal Life, can you not at least one time post a verse that is just as clear that a believer can lose their Eternal Life by how they live.

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

TibiasDad · Sep 6, 2020

d taylor said:
Verse 11 is speaking of mortal bodies
Then why does the verse 13 state, For if you live according to the flesh you will die

A perfect place For God to make clear that a believer can die spiritually all was needed was spiritually after die. But no, all is said is that if a believer lives according to the flesh they will die.

So just as clear as these verse state how a person receives Eternal Life, can you not at least one time post a verse that is just as clear that a believer can lose their Eternal Life by how they live.

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

TibiasDad · Sep 6, 2020

d taylor said:
Verse 11 is speaking of mortal bodies
Then why does the verse 13 state, For if you live according to the flesh you will die

A perfect place For God to make clear that a believer can die spiritually all was needed was spiritually after die. But no, all is said is that if a believer lives according to the flesh they will die.

So just as clear as these verse state how a person receives Eternal Life, can you not at least one time post a verse that is just as clear that a believer can lose their Eternal Life by how they live.

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

It would be helpful if you gave the references to your quotes, please and thank you!

Doug

Andrewn · Sep 6, 2020

d taylor said:
Verse 11 is speaking of mortal bodies. Then why does the verse 13 state, For if you live according to the flesh you will die. A perfect place For God to make clear that a believer can die spiritually all was needed was spiritually after die.

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die,

Let's try it both ways and see:

1) If you live according to the flesh you will die physically, but if you do not live according to the flesh you will not die physically.

2) If you live according to the flesh you will die spiritually, but if you do not live according to the flesh you will not die spiritually.

Which one makes sense to you?

d taylor · Sep 6, 2020

TibiasDad said:
It would be helpful if you gave the references to your quotes, please and thank you!

Doug

These were the verses we have been discussing in Romans 8

TibiasDad · Sep 6, 2020

d taylor said:
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

These are not in Romans 8!

Doug

d taylor · Sep 6, 2020

TibiasDad said:
These are not in Romans 8!

Doug

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

FreeGrace2 · Sep 6, 2020

d taylor said: ↑
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

TibiasDad said:
These are not in Romans 8!
Doug

Wow, what an answer!

As if none of these verses even matter, since the discussion is Romans 8. Unbelievable!

But no surprise. This poster does not believe that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. He believes they can and do perish.

TibiasDad · Sep 6, 2020

d taylor said:
Verse 11 is speaking of mortal bodies
Then why does the verse 13 state, For if you live according to the flesh you will die

1) This is not hermeneutically sound!

2) Rom 8:9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Verse 9 is what sets this context. We are not in the realm of the flesh, doesn't mean we are not in physical flesh and bone, but rather, as is typical in NT writing, "in the flesh", or "living in the flesh" means following the desires of the sinful nature. This is what defines "live according to the flesh" in 8:13. It is about a spiritual action (living in the flesh) with a spiritual result.
It is because we are not in the realm of the flesh, that we have the hope of physical resurrection, but this is only true if we are "not in the realm of the flesh, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you". This is the meaning of verse 11; it cannot be anything else in the context.

Doug

d taylor · Sep 6, 2020

Andrewn said:
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die,

Let's try it both ways and see:

1) If you live according to the flesh you will die physically, but if you do not live according to the flesh you will not die physically.

2) If you live according to the flesh you will die spiritually, but if you do not live according to the flesh you will not die spiritually.

Which one makes sense to you?

The original verse makes sense that if a believer lives in the flesh they may die (God may take their physical life before their time to die as discipline for a sinful life )

d taylor · Sep 6, 2020

I did not know if you were speaking about the verses in Romans. But i failed to also indicate where the other verse that were below are from.

They are from the only Book of The Bible whose stated purpose for being written is to tell people how to have life (Eternal Life) John 20:30,31

TibiasDad · Sep 6, 2020

d taylor said:
I did not know if you were speaking about the verses in Romans. But i failed to also indicate where the other verse that were below are from.

They are from the only Book of The Bible whose stated purpose for being written is to tell people how to have life (Eternal Life) John 20:30,31

Those were the verses I was referring to, and the other John verses as well.

Doug

d taylor · Sep 6, 2020

TibiasDad said:
Those were the verses I was referring to, and the other John verses as well.

Doug

chapters 3, 4, 6 i believe

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