Enough is Enough Already! Let's Be Honest!

[GenemZ]

Are all you people who are agreeing with Woobadooba certain that you even agree with his interpretation of Scripture? If you guys find you have some disagreements, I wonder which one of you will be the dishonest one?

There will always be disagreements on certain things. Sure! But, if one is Spirit led? Ultimately, it will not be over essential things, given time. It may take many debates to get the unity that God desires. For one must be exposed to truth before one can believe it.

To "repent," means to "change one's thinking." We all need to repent at times. For, along the way we all have received some wrong information.

That is why we all need each other. Yet, if a person is not standing right before God? The truth can be standing right in front of him, and he will never see it. He, because he refuses to be humble before God, will see truth as being distorted as much as he desires to distort who and what God truly is. That is why Jesus, said...

Matthew 16:16-17 (New International Version)
"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

All truth is given to us by God. For, God sees those whom he grants truth to as standing correctly before Him. He already knows who will do his will. He knew this before we were even born.

Those whom he knows will do his will, the Father honors with granting him understanding and wisdom. Having truth is the only sign we have of having God's approval. Those not approved will end up desiring false doctrines.

1 Corinthians 11:18-20 (New International Version)
"In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval."

They are all saved because they believed in Christ. But! God only grants truth to those whom he always knew will desire to do His will. Not 100%. Never. No fallen man saved by grace is free of failure. That is where the mercy of God comes in. For we all fail. Yet, not all desire to believe God's Word when they fail as to recover. They see God's destiny for them as asking too much of them. So, they recreate God in a manner in which they can feel comfortable with.

2 Timothy 4:3 (New International Version)
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Since God is omniscient? He always knew who would do his will after they were saved. It is revealed in His Word.

Jeremiah 1:5 niv
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Interesting path this is on.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[herev]

They are all saved because they believed in Christ. But! God only grants truth to those whom he always knew will desire to do His will. Not 100%. Never. No fallen man saved by grace is free of failure. That is where the mercy of God comes in. For we all fail. Yet, not all desire to believe God's Word when they fail as to recover. They see God's destiny for them as asking too much of them. So, they recreate God in a manner in which they can feel comfortable with.

gene, long time
I agree with you on this 100% (I'd say more if it were possible). Just out of curiousity. I've encountered someone here and on some other fora who beleives that the only persons destined to be saved at the return of Christ are "saints." He further says that these saints do NOT ever sin again after they've received, "the spirit that leads to all truth."
have you ever heard of this theology before?

 

[GenemZ]

I've encountered someone here and on some other fora who beleives that the only persons destined to be saved at the return of Christ are "saints." He further says that these saints do NOT ever sin again after they've received, "the spirit that leads to all truth."
have you ever heard of this theology before?

No, I have not.

And, am glad for it!


Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[herev]

thanks. I'm fascinated with his beliefs but it seems as if they must come from somewhere. And I've never heard of his thought process before. He reasons that the 144,000 are the saints and that they are (my word) scattered throughout generations from when Revelation was written to when Christ has returned. In his math, that means that there are 2000 alive at any given time, and that these are the only ones who have any real ability to teach others. Anyway, thanks.

 

[Amb1]

You know, I just don't get it. Why is it that God has given us the command not to lie, and yet so many Christians persist in telling lies?

And this happens all too often. And what I am referring to in particular is scriptural dishonesty.

For example, an argument was given that because Jesus referred to Judas as a devil that means Judas was always a false believer.

I countered this argument by saying that Jesus also referred to Peter as Satan Matt. 6:23, so does that mean he was a false believer too? In other words, to be consistent with the logic of this argument we would also have to assume that Peter was a false believer, which means even Judas had a chance to be saved, since Peter was obviously saved.

But I was told that Jesus did not call Peter Satan. And it was implied that I was twisting the scriptures by saying this. Yet, the Bible says, "But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan..." V.23

Could it be any more clearer than this?

And then to make matters worse I was told that Judas was removed from the book of life. Now, here is what the Bible says,

"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels." Rev. 3:5

Notice how the context of the passage suggests that those who overcome will not be removed from the book of life. Couple this with what Jesus had said,

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matt. 24:13

And what do we have? An interpretation that suggests that names will not be removed from the book of life until the end--meaning the great day of God's judgment.

This means Judas could not have been removed from the book of life, since the end has not come.

But then I was told that the names of the wicked are not in the book of life. Well, if this is the case, what sense then is there in speaking of removing names?

Ok, so Judas was removed from the book of life. But then wait a minute, none of the names of the wicked are in the book of life. Well, which one is it?

I am sure the problem here is very obvious!

So why deny it? To me this is nothing less than telling a lie.

You know, it would be nice if people, especially Christians, would at least be honest in their approach to the study of God's word.

People are always arguing that we can't really know what the Bible means because there are so many different interpretations. Truth is: We can know what it means. And the reason why there are so many interpretations is because there are just as many people out there who aren't taking an honest look at the scriptures!

So the problem isn't with God's word, but with the people who refuse to take an honest look at it.

In fact, I've seen so many blatant scriptural denials in GT that it makes my stomach sick! How are we ever going to grow spiritually if we continue to behave in this way?

People, let's be honest, please!

Woobadooba, When a Christian has an opinion concerning an interpretation of a particular scripture, that is not a lie. That is a BELIEF, and right or wrong, it is NOT a lie. You believe your particular beliefs and everybody has a right to theirs. I know you believe that yours is the only correct interpretation, but those who you accuse also believe that theirs is the only correct interpretation. Do not be so quick to judge. It is entirely possible that the others may be correct and you may be the one who is wrong.

 

[mutzrein]

gene, long time
I agree with you on this 100% (I'd say more if it were possible). Just out of curiousity. I've encountered someone here and on some other fora who beleives that the only persons destined to be saved at the return of Christ are "saints." He further says that these saints do NOT ever sin again after they've received, "the spirit that leads to all truth."
have you ever heard of this theology before?

Can you point out which forum you encountered this person pse?

I am not upholding all that this person (you say) is saying but aren't all those who are born again, "saints"?

And 1John 3:9 does say, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

 

[woobadooba]

Woobadooba, When a Christian has an opinion concerning an interpretation of a particular scripture, that is not a lie. That is a BELIEF, and right or wrong, it is NOT a lie. You believe your particular beliefs and everybody has a right to theirs. I know you believe that yours is the only correct interpretation, but those who you accuse also believe that theirs is the only correct interpretation. Do not be so quick to judge. It is entirely possible that the others may be correct and you may be the one who is wrong.

I disagree with you. Anything that isn't true is a lie. And if someone is teaching something that isn't true, whether he knows it or not, he is still telling lies.

And I am open to refutation and admonition. I believe in the non-parochial approach, meaning, I want the best of what is out there. Thus I am open to change. And if someone can clearly show me that my theology is in error in any way, I will recant. I don't try to cover anything up. Truth is more important than pride.

 

[tall73]

Although I heartily affirm the perspicuity of Scripture for the saving knowledge of Christ, this doesn't mean that all interpretations of Scripture that you consider self-evident will necessarily be understood the same by everyone who has a genuine desire to understand Scripture. We interpret things (whether Scripture, other writings, or reality in general) in accordance with the presuppositions that we hold. Those presuppositions will inform our understanding of that which we're interpreting. Discussions, therefore, have more potential to be fruitful if they're held at the presuppositional level. But I think we need to repent of the assumption that fellow Christians are necessarily being dishonest when they see things differently, especially if there is no clear indication that their interpretations are meant to self-servingly indulge their sinful nature.

I completely agree.

To us it may seem that they are being totally dishonest. And while it could rarely be true, most times they are simply being sincere in what they believe.

If I really thought that all the people who disagreed with me were dishonest, why would I bother at all?

I have been on both sides of the fence.I have had people ask me why I am not seeing what is plainly there, and I have thought the same of others.

And sometimes, in both of our cases, it finally clicks...and we really do see what is there. And we wonder how we didn't see it before.

It happened to be a few weeks back on a text I had studied for years. And it happened right here in GT. Someone said something that totally changed my view. And they were right.

 

[tall73]

So we should repent for calling people dishonest for rejecting the obvious by indulging in their sinful nature, because they are too prideful to admit that they are wrong?

Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

And the whole point of studying the Bible is to learn how to examine our presuppositions in the light of scripture, to hear what God has to say, not to interpret scripture in the light of our presuppositions in an attempt to prove what we already believe.

One of my first districts was in an area where I had four rural churches. One time (oh I wish it was only one!) during a bible study, they were going on about how their neighbors just couldn't see what was in the Bible. One of them...an elder even, said something like this:

"These folks are all just a bunch of dumb farmers who can't see the truth right in front of their eyes."

Now the irony here was that the whole churh was full of farmers! This guy himself was a farmer. And I daresay he couldn't explain the truth in question from the Bible if he had to!

I asked them how they could possibly go love their neighbors, or even discuss truth with them, if they were truly convinced that they were dumb, lying farmers who hated the truth. They had a view that totally eliminated them from any productive work in bringing people to Christ. They assumed that people didn't want Christ.

People rarely argue for a lie. In fact, most people cannot continually tune out nagging truth, they must resolve the mental dichotomy. So when we see people not understanding, the safest assumption is that they simply don't understand. Or maybe we don't.

Having said that, there are still times that context is ignored, etc. We just have to try to explain it.

 

[GenemZ]

Woobadooba, When a Christian has an opinion concerning an interpretation of a particular scripture, that is not a lie.

Noun: lie
1. A statement that deviates from or perverts the truth.

I believe you are confusing an intentional lie, with an unintentional lie.

That is a BELIEF, and right or wrong, it is NOT a lie.

A lie is any "falsehood." In that sense all men are liars by nature from the first birth.

Ephesians 4:25 niv
"Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body."

That verse contrasts "falsehood" - with - "truthfulness."

Revelation 14:5 niv
"No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless."

Anything other than the truth is a lie.

The person telling a falsehood may not wish to tell a lie. An honest lie would be... "I am not sure. I think it may be this." That would be an honest lie if what was said were untrue.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[woobadooba]

One of my first districts was in an area where I had four rural churches. One time (oh I wish it was only one!) during a bible study, they were going on about how their neighbors just couldn't see what was in the Bible. One of them...an elder even, said something like this:

"These folks are all just a bunch of dumb farmers who can't see the truth right in front of their eyes."

Now the irony here was that the whole church was full of farmers! This guy himself was a farmer. And I daresay he couldn't explain the truth in question from the Bible if he had to!

I asked them how they could possibly go love their neighbors, or even discuss truth with them, if they were truly convinced that they were dumb, lying farmers who hated the truth. They had a view that totally eliminated them from any productive work in bringing people to Christ. They assumed that people didn't want Christ.

People rarely argue for a lie. In fact, most people cannot continually tune out nagging truth, they must resolve the mental dichotomy. So when we see people not understanding, the safest assumption is that they simply don't understand. Or maybe we don't.

Having said that, there are still times that context is ignored, etc. We just have to try to explain it.

I agree, but then there are people who have an issue with pride. They are too proud to admit that they are wrong, and so they twist the scriptures in an attempt to support their erroneous views. And when you do explain things to them with solid exegesis, they still refuse to listen.

So is it wrong at that point to call them liars when they refuse to speak the truth? I don't think so. In fact, even Jesus implied this when he addressed the Pharisees, who were not willing to see things in any other way but their own.

He said, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." Jn. 8:44

You see, these people didn't want to hear the truth, because they were not of God. It's as simple as that

For, in their minds their view was more important to them than anything else, even God. And so it is the same with many professed Christians today. They covet their own presuppositions to such a degree that they forfeit any opportunity to receive something better.

And the message that Jesus has for such people is in Matt. 7:21-23

 

[woobadooba]

I believe you are confusing an intentional lie, with an unintentional lie. A lie is any "falsehood." In that sense all men are liars by nature from the first birth.

And this is the point. Whether a person knows it or not, if he is inculcating an idea that is false, then he is lying.

The sad thing is that there are those people who know they are wrong, but they will insist on having it their way because they are too proud to admit that they are wrong. And after rendering such denials for so long a period of time, they eventually come to believe that they really are speaking the truth, even though there was a time when they knew they weren't.

 

[Gwenyfur]

You know, I just don't get it. Why is it that God has given us the command not to lie, and yet so many Christians persist in telling lies?

And this happens all too often. And what I am referring to in particular is scriptural dishonesty.

For example, an argument was given that because Jesus referred to Judas as a devil that means Judas was always a false believer.

I countered this argument by saying that Jesus also referred to Peter as Satan Matt. 6:23, so does that mean he was a false believer too? In other words, to be consistent with the logic of this argument we would also have to assume that Peter was a false believer, which means even Judas had a chance to be saved, since Peter was obviously saved.

But I was told that Jesus did not call Peter Satan. And it was implied that I was twisting the scriptures by saying this. Yet, the Bible says, "But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan..." V.23

Could it be any more clearer than this?

And then to make matters worse I was told that Judas was removed from the book of life. Now, here is what the Bible says,

"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels." Rev. 3:5

Notice how the context of the passage suggests that those who overcome will not be removed from the book of life. Couple this with what Jesus had said,

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matt. 24:13

And what do we have? An interpretation that suggests that names will not be removed from the book of life until the end--meaning the great day of God's judgment.

This means Judas could not have been removed from the book of life, since the end has not come.

But then I was told that the names of the wicked are not in the book of life. Well, if this is the case, what sense then is there in speaking of removing names?

Ok, so Judas was removed from the book of life. But then wait a minute, none of the names of the wicked are in the book of life. Well, which one is it?

I am sure the problem here is very obvious!

So why deny it? To me this is nothing less than telling a lie.

You know, it would be nice if people, especially Christians, would at least be honest in their approach to the study of God's word.

People are always arguing that we can't really know what the Bible means because there are so many different interpretations. Truth is: We can know what it means. And the reason why there are so many interpretations is because there are just as many people out there who aren't taking an honest look at the scriptures!

So the problem isn't with God's word, but with the people who refuse to take an honest look at it.

In fact, I've seen so many blatant scriptural denials in GT that it makes my stomach sick! How are we ever going to grow spiritually if we continue to behave in this way?

People, let's be honest, please!

I can't disagree with anything you've posted here...

So...

 

[Gwenyfur]

Are all you people who are agreeing with Woobadooba certain that you even agree with his interpretation of Scripture? If you guys find you have some disagreements, I wonder which one of you will be the dishonest one?

Scripture is Black and White...the Word of the living G-d, Father of Creation....

It's not so easily misinterpreted, it is easily twisted to suit a person's own wants/intentions and therefore lied about and with.

The next dishonest one considering your post....

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[Leah]

Do you normally give people rep points for responding to their misinterpretation of people's posts or is Woobadooba an exception?

What does my giving out reps to Woobadooba or anyone else have to do with you?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

All the more reason why scriptures are not to be read outside the context of "The Church".

She wrote it, It is her testimony to Christ God.

Why do we feel the need to decipher it? Ask "The Church" she will explain.

Forgive me.....

 

[woobadooba]

All the more reason why scriptures are not to be read outside the context of "The Church".

She wrote it, It is her testimony to Christ God.

Why do we feel the need to decipher it? Ask "The Church" she will explain.

Forgive me.....

Asking the church is the whole problem, because the church is made up of a body of sinful believers. Would it not be better to take our petitions to Christ?

Don't get me wrong here. Yes, we ought to take our concerns to the church, but before we do that we need to take them to God in earnest prayer, who, by manner of the Holy Spirit, will teach us what we ought to know.

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." James 1:5

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." Jn. 14:26

The church isn't infallible, but God is.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Asking the church is the whole problem, because the church is made up of a body of sinful believers. Would it not be better to take our petitions to Christ?

Don't get me wrong here. Yes, we ought to take our concerns to the church, but before we do that we need to take them to God in earnest prayer, who, by manner of the Holy Spirit, will teach us what we ought to know.

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." James 1:5

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." Jn. 14:26

The church isn't infallible, but God is.

I can see where it is a big problem if you don't know which Church represents the True Church.

IMHO ~ It is not the Vatican.

 

[ILoveYeshua]

.

 

[woobadooba]

Look dude, Judas Iscariot (there was another Judas you know), was the son of perdition. Christ was able to predict Peter's denial, and also Iscariot's betrayal, wayyyyyy before they ever happened. That's omniscience for you. Iscariot was always a bąstard.

1. This thread isn't about Judas betrayal Vs. Peter's denial and God's foreknowledge of the two. It's about people who deny the obvious teachings of the Bible, and twist the scriptures to support their theological biases.

2. No vulgar language in my thread please.