Enough is Enough Already! Let's Be Honest!

[woobadooba]

You know, I just don't get it. Why is it that God has given us the command not to lie, and yet so many Christians persist in telling lies?

And this happens all too often. And what I am referring to in particular is scriptural dishonesty.

For example, an argument was given that because Jesus referred to Judas as a devil that means Judas was always a false believer.

I countered this argument by saying that Jesus also referred to Peter as Satan Matt. 6:23, so does that mean he was a false believer too? In other words, to be consistent with the logic of this argument we would also have to assume that Peter was a false believer, which means even Judas had a chance to be saved, since Peter was obviously saved.

But I was told that Jesus did not call Peter Satan. And it was implied that I was twisting the scriptures by saying this. Yet, the Bible says, "But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan..." V.23

Could it be any more clearer than this?

And then to make matters worse I was told that Judas was removed from the book of life. Now, here is what the Bible says,

"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels." Rev. 3:5

Notice how the context of the passage suggests that those who overcome will not be removed from the book of life. Couple this with what Jesus had said,

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matt. 24:13

And what do we have? An interpretation that suggests that names will not be removed from the book of life until the end--meaning the great day of God's judgment.

This means Judas could not have been removed from the book of life, since the end has not come.

But then I was told that the names of the wicked are not in the book of life. Well, if this is the case, what sense then is there in speaking of removing names?

Ok, so Judas was removed from the book of life. But then wait a minute, none of the names of the wicked are in the book of life. Well, which one is it?

I am sure the problem here is very obvious!

So why deny it? To me this is nothing less than telling a lie.

You know, it would be nice if people, especially Christians, would at least be honest in their approach to the study of God's word.

People are always arguing that we can't really know what the Bible means because there are so many different interpretations. Truth is: We can know what it means. And the reason why there are so many interpretations is because there are just as many people out there who aren't taking an honest look at the scriptures!

So the problem isn't with God's word, but with the people who refuse to take an honest look at it.

In fact, I've seen so many blatant scriptural denials in GT that it makes my stomach sick! How are we ever going to grow spiritually if we continue to behave in this way?

People, let's be honest, please!

 

[ITBM]

It's very disheartening when people insist on denying or changing the meaning of obvious scripture.

However, as fallen beings living in a fallen world it is bound to happen.

We need to extend grace AND truth to those who do this. IOW gently correct them in love.

... um.. I was going to say something else but TOTALLY forgot.

All that aside, I wholeheartedly agree with your frustration and desire for honesty.

 

[woobadooba]

It's very disheartening when people insist on denying or changing the meaning of obvious scripture.

However, as fallen beings living in a fallen world it is bound to happen.

We need to extend grace AND truth to those who do this. IOW gently correct them in love.

... um.. I was going to say something else but TOTALLY forgot.

All that aside, I wholeheartedly agree with your frustration and desire for honesty.

Yeah, and the sad thing is that when you do correct them with the obvious, they then accuse you of being dishonest.

 

[ITBM]

Yeah, and the sad thing is that when you do correct them with the obvious, they then accuse you of being dishonest.

Catch 22 eh?

 

[A. believer]

You know, I just don't get it. Why is it that God has given us the command not to lie, and yet so many Christians persist in telling lies?

And this happens all too often. And what I am referring to in particular is scriptural dishonesty.

For example, an argument was given that because Jesus referred to Judas as a devil that means Judas was always a false believer.

I countered this argument by saying that Jesus also referred to Peter as Satan Matt. 6:23, so does that mean he was a false believer too? In other words, to be consistent with the logic of this argument we would also have to assume that Peter was a false believer, which means even Judas had a chance to be saved, since Peter was obviously saved.

But I was told that Jesus did not call Peter Satan. And it was implied that I was twisting the scriptures by saying this. Yet, the Bible says, "But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan..." V.23

Could it be any more clearer than this?

And then to make matters worse I was told that Judas was removed from the book of life. Now, here is what the Bible says,

"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels." Rev. 3:5

Notice how the context of the passage suggests that those who overcome will not be removed from the book of life. Couple this with what Jesus had said,

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matt. 24:13

And what do we have? An interpretation that suggests that names will not be removed from the book of life until the end--meaning the great day of God's judgment.

This means Judas could not have been removed from the book of life, since the end has not come.

But then I was told that the names of the wicked are not in the book of life. Well, if this is the case, what sense then is there in speaking of removing names?

Ok, so Judas was removed from the book of life. But then wait a minute, none of the names of the wicked are in the book of life. Well, which one is it?

I am sure the problem here is very obvious!

So why deny it? To me this is nothing less than telling a lie.

You know, it would be nice if people, especially Christians, would at least be honest in their approach to the study of God's word.

People are always arguing that we can't really know what the Bible means because there are so many different interpretations. Truth is: We can know what it means. And the reason why there are so many interpretations is because there are just as many people out there who aren't taking an honest look at the scriptures!

So the problem isn't with God's word, but with the people who refuse to take an honest look at it.

In fact, I've seen so many blatant scriptural denials in GT that it makes my stomach sick! How are we ever going to grow spiritually if we continue to behave in this way?

People, let's be honest, please!

Although I heartily affirm the perspicuity of Scripture for the saving knowledge of Christ, this doesn't mean that all interpretations of Scripture that you consider self-evident will necessarily be understood the same by everyone who has a genuine desire to understand Scripture. We interpret things (whether Scripture, other writings, or reality in general) in accordance with the presuppositions that we hold. Those presuppositions will inform our understanding of that which we're interpreting. Discussions, therefore, have more potential to be fruitful if they're held at the presuppositional level. But I think we need to repent of the assumption that fellow Christians are necessarily being dishonest when they see things differently, especially if there is no clear indication that their interpretations are meant to self-servingly indulge their sinful nature.

 

[woobadooba]

Although I heartily affirm the perspicuity of Scripture for the saving knowledge of Christ, this doesn't mean that all interpretations of Scripture that you consider self-evident will necessarily be understood the same by everyone who has a genuine desire to understand Scripture. We interpret things (whether Scripture, other writings, or reality in general) in accordance with the presuppositions that we hold. Those presuppositions will inform our understanding of that which we're interpreting. Discussions, therefore, have more potential to be fruitful if they're held at the presuppositional level. But I think we need to repent of the assumption that fellow Christians are necessarily being dishonest when they see things differently, especially if there is no clear indication that their interpretations are meant to self-servingly indulge their sinful nature.

So we should repent for calling people dishonest for rejecting the obvious by indulging in their sinful nature, because they are too prideful to admit that they are wrong?

Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

And the whole point of studying the Bible is to learn how to examine our presuppositions in the light of scripture, to hear what God has to say, not to interpret scripture in the light of our presuppositions in an attempt to prove what we already believe.

 

[A. believer]

So we should repent for calling people dishonest for rejecting the obvious by indulging in their sinful nature, because they are too prideful to admit that they are wrong?

Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

And the whole point of studying the Bible is to learn how to examine our presuppositions in the light of scripture, to hear what God has to say, not to interpret scripture in the light of our presuppositions in an attempt to prove what we already believe.

I consider it no small irony when people who seem to think their own interpretation of Scripture is beyond dispute go on to misinterpret my simple, straightforward posts written directly to them, and in some cases (such as this one) even interpreting me to be saying precisely the opposite of what I actually said.

 

[holo]

Why is this kind of thing being debated in the first place? What bearing does it have on your everyday life when/if/how Judas' name was blotted out or not?!?!

Perhaps the two of you would have gotten along nicely hadn't you been quarreling over stuff like this. Meh.

Should I have an opinion on stuff like that?

 

[Leah]

Yeah, and the sad thing is that when you do correct them with the obvious, they then accuse you of being dishonest.

Either that or they accuse you of being a judgemental legalist christian who treates everyone with contempt because they don't 'follow the bible word for word'. THAT really hurts.

 

[Leah]

So we should repent for calling people dishonest for rejecting the obvious by indulging in their sinful nature, because they are too prideful to admit that they are wrong?

Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

And the whole point of studying the Bible is to learn how to examine our presuppositions in the light of scripture, to hear what God has to say, not to interpret scripture in the light of our presuppositions in an attempt to prove what we already believe.

Exactly.

*you must spread some reputation around before giving it Woobadooba again*

 

[A. believer]

Exactly.

*you must spread some reputation around before giving it Woobadooba again*

Do you normally give people rep points for responding to their misinterpretation of people's posts or is Woobadooba an exception?

 

[A. believer]

Why is this kind of thing being debated in the first place? What bearing does it have on your everyday life when/if/how Judas' name was blotted out or not?!?!

Perhaps the two of you would have gotten along nicely hadn't you been quarreling over stuff like this. Meh.

Should I have an opinion on stuff like that?

Perhaps the discussion was in regard to whether or not one can lose salvation and Judas was being used as an example by one party as to someone who lost salvation while the other party said that Scripture portrays Judas as always having been unregenerate. That would be my guess, anyway. And people have been "quarreling" about (or debating) such things for centuries because of the very practical theological significance it has.

 

[GenemZ]

So we should repent for calling people dishonest for rejecting the obvious by indulging in their sinful nature, because they are too prideful to admit that they are wrong?

Sorry, but that doesn't fly with me.

And the whole point of studying the Bible is to learn how to examine our presuppositions in the light of scripture, to hear what God has to say, not to interpret scripture in the light of our presuppositions in an attempt to prove what we already believe.

There is a reason why they are wrong.....

Matthew 16:17 niv
"Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

What we fail to recognize is, that, to know the truth? It does not come about from logical deductions made through honesty. Its revealed to our spirit by God's grace! Many saw the same Jesus as Peter had. Not all could see Jesus as being the Christ.

We must be humble before God, not simply the truth of God's Word. If we are humble before God, then the Holy Spirit will open our eyes to what is the truth. Dishonest believers do not have a problem with the words of the Bible. It has to do with their foundational attitude concerning how they stand before God. How they wish to deny who God really is. God in turn, denies what they can know about truth. The truth will make you free...



John 16:13 niv
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."


God is seeking those of humble heart before Him. If they are... They will find themselves walking in truth. And, more and more truth, as they continue to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord. It all begins with our humility before God. We have knowledge that is true, not because we are honest about the truth. Its because we are honest about where we stand with God.

John 4:23 niv
"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks."

Spirit and truth is not the same thing as ritual and tradition... The Truth will make us free. Because God is saying that we are able to be made free to know God as he really is. Not every believer can accept this.

2 Timothy 4:3 niv
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Knowing truth is not an entitlement from God. It is God honoring the believer and a great privilege. Its a gift from God. For faith is a gift (Eph 2:8). Faith comes by hearing the message!

Romans 10:17 niv
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."


Hearing it. Not just listening to the message. But hearing what it has to say.




Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[A. believer]

Are all you people who are agreeing with Woobadooba certain that you even agree with his interpretation of Scripture? If you guys find you have some disagreements, I wonder which one of you will be the dishonest one?

 

[TreesNTrees]

You know, I just don't get it. Why is it that God has given us the command not to lie, and yet so many Christians persist in telling lies?

And this happens all too often. And what I am referring to in particular is scriptural dishonesty.

For example, an argument was given that because Jesus referred to Judas as a devil that means Judas was always a false believer.

I countered this argument by saying that Jesus also referred to Peter as Satan Matt. 6:23, so does that mean he was a false believer too? In other words, to be consistent with the logic of this argument we would also have to assume that Peter was a false believer, which means even Judas had a chance to be saved, since Peter was obviously saved.

But I was told that Jesus did not call Peter Satan. And it was implied that I was twisting the scriptures by saying this. Yet, the Bible says, "But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan..." V.23

Could it be any more clearer than this?

And then to make matters worse I was told that Judas was removed from the book of life. Now, here is what the Bible says,

"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels." Rev. 3:5

Notice how the context of the passage suggests that those who overcome will not be removed from the book of life. Couple this with what Jesus had said,

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matt. 24:13

And what do we have? An interpretation that suggests that names will not be removed from the book of life until the end--meaning the great day of God's judgment.

This means Judas could not have been removed from the book of life, since the end has not come.

But then I was told that the names of the wicked are not in the book of life. Well, if this is the case, what sense then is there in speaking of removing names?

Ok, so Judas was removed from the book of life. But then wait a minute, none of the names of the wicked are in the book of life. Well, which one is it?

I am sure the problem here is very obvious!

So why deny it? To me this is nothing less than telling a lie.

You know, it would be nice if people, especially Christians, would at least be honest in their approach to the study of God's word.

People are always arguing that we can't really know what the Bible means because there are so many different interpretations. Truth is: We can know what it means. And the reason why there are so many interpretations is because there are just as many people out there who aren't taking an honest look at the scriptures!

So the problem isn't with God's word, but with the people who refuse to take an honest look at it.

In fact, I've seen so many blatant scriptural denials in GT that it makes my stomach sick! How are we ever going to grow spiritually if we continue to behave in this way?

People, let's be honest, please!

That's what can happen when people start choosing which verses of the bible they think are God's Word, and which verses are not. By giving their validation that some verses are the Word, but others are history, or just a letter to somebody.

I heard a minister say once "it's either all God's Word from Genesis to Revelation, or none of it is God's Word".

He understood that a verse needs to be studied, and old texts compared too, but he meant that you just can't go yanking a verse out here, and a verse there. For if one person can do in one verse, another can do it in another verse.

 

[holo]

because of the very practical theological significance it has.

It has?

Is there any real-life situation where I would need have a stance on this matter? Will/should it has any bearing on how I treat people, for example?

 

[herev]

Are all you people who are agreeing with Woobadooba certain that you even agree with his interpretation of Scripture? If you guys find you have some disagreements, I wonder which one of you will be the dishonest one?

very interesting image. I'd like to see that to. Between Woobadooba, genez, and well, we need stranger, too. All of them have always posted (no insult intended here, guys, just an observation) as if they have an inside track to scriptural interpretation. I, too, would find it interesting to see what they disagree on, and the resulting attempts to explain each other away.
sorry, couldn't resist

 

[woobadooba]

I consider it no small irony when people who seem to think their own interpretation of Scripture is beyond dispute go on to misinterpret my simple, straightforward posts written directly to them, and in some cases (such as this one) even interpreting me to be saying precisely the opposite of what I actually said.

I don't believe I misinterpreted your post.

Here is the thrust of your post: We need to be sensitive to the fact that everyone has presuppositions, and try to work together to come to a mutual understanding of what it is we are discussing concerning what is written in the Bible.

And I agree with this.

And as for the comment that I had made concerning our approach to the Bible, that wasn't meant to be a rebuke to you. I was just simply sharing an idea with you that I believe to be true, that we should not go to the Bible to support what we already believe, but to discover what we really ought to believe.

You also implied that I was being insensitive for calling these people liars for misrepresenting God's word. But aren't they? If the obvious is disclosed to them, and they persist in denying it in order to support some other idea for which there is no scriptural basis, are they really being truthful? In other words, are they taking an honest look at the scriptures? No!

So why should I apologize for calling them liars?

So I didn't misinterpret your post.

 

[woobadooba]

very interesting image. I'd like to see that to. Between Woobadooba, genez, and well, we need stranger, too. All of them have always posted (no insult intended here, guys, just an observation) as if they have an inside track to scriptural interpretation. I, too, would find it interesting to see what they disagree on, and the resulting attempts to explain each other away.
sorry, couldn't resist

And you haven't done this?

 

[herev]

And you haven't done this?

not to my knowledge, no