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Enoch and Elijah

MikeK

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You mention that some responses in his thread convince you that Russia's errors have spread. I'm probably wasting my breath with such direct questions, but I'll try anyway. Which specific posts convince you of this? Which specific doctrines, if any, of the Catholic Workers Party stem from Russia's errors? Which specific teachings, if any, of Servant of God Day do you object to?

I can't help but notice that your definition of socialism seems to be a moving target "politics that I don't like" rather than any concrete set of core policies. I have shared countless times my position and the position of Karl Marx, that the central tenant of socialism and communism are government or communal ownership of the means of production. Social Democracy, Distributism, and Capitalism all reject this ideal. Please reply with your list of what makes socialism socialism rather than some vague "makes government a God" answer which is without clear definition. That isn't what makes socialism, it is what makes socialism wrong.

Of course, it is undeniable that Russia is swinging back toward a more overtly socialist position through control of the press, nationalistic bombast, and of course, the increased state ownership of military industry, energy concerns, and lending houses. Still, you have stated that you would vote for Vladimir Putin for President of the United States - a man who by decree has undeniably moved Russia away from a modern capitalist state and towards socialist policies. How do you reconcile that position with your alleged disdain for socialism? Marx, of course, never advocated for same sex marriage and the Soviet Union treated known homosexuals brutally, so you'll have to look beyond some revisionist "socialism something something gay marriage" bit.

I'm not getting any direct answers here, so I'll loose them to the general audience. If the general audience cannot address them directly in a spirit of meaningful dialogue, I will take that as evidence that I am correct.

Lots of quote-mined statements here. I agree with all of them, but not a one addresses the questions I asked.

If anyone has any questions about my position, please ask. I promise to respect you and do my best to patiently articulate my position directly, and not to cower or waffle when posed with difficult questions.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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paul_VI.jpg


Octogesima Adveniens - Apostolic Letter of Pope Paul VI (14 May 1971)


Attraction of socialist currents

31. Some Christians are today attracted by socialist currents and their various developments. They try to recognize therein a certain number of aspirations which they carry within themselves in the name of their faith. They feel that they are part of that historical current and wish to play a part within it. Now this historical current takes on, under the same name, different forms according to different continents and cultures, even if it drew its inspiration, and still does in many cases, from ideologies incompatible with faith. Careful judgment is called for. Too often Christians attracted by socialism tend to idealize it in terms which, apart from anything else, are very general: a will for justice, solidarity and equality. They refuse to recognize the limitations of the historical socialist movements, which remain conditioned by the ideologies from which they originated. Distinctions must be made to guide concrete choices between the various levels of expression of socialism: a generous aspiration and a seeking for a more just society, historical movements with a political organization and aim, and an ideology which claims to give a complete and self-sufficient picture of man. Nevertheless, these distinctions must not lead one to consider such levels as completely separate and independent. The concrete link which, according to circumstances, exists between them must be clearly marked out. This insight will enable Christians to see the degree of commitment possible along these lines, while safeguarding the values, especially those of liberty, responsibility and openness to the spiritual, which guarantee the integral development of man.

Historical evolution of Marxism

32. Other Christians even ask whether an historical development of Marxism might not authorize certain concrete rapprochements. They note in fact a certain splintering of Marxism, which until now showed itself to be a unitary ideology which explained in atheistic terms the whole of man and the world since it did not go outside their development process. Apart from the ideological confrontation officially separating the various champions of Marxism-Leninism in their individual interpretations of the thought of its founders, and apart from the open opposition between the political systems which make use of its name today, some people lay down distinctions between Marxism's various levels of expression.

33. For some, Marxism remains essentially the active practice of class struggle. Experiencing the ever present and continually renewed force of the relationships of domination and exploitation among men, they reduce Marxism to no more than a struggle - at times with no other purpose - to be pursued and even stirred up in permanent fashion. For others, it is first and foremost the collective exercise of political and economic power under the direction of a single party, which would be the sole expression and guarantee of the welfare of all, and would deprive individuals and other groups of any possibility of initiative and choice. At a third level, Marxism' whether in power or not, is viewed as a socialist ideology based on historical materialism and the denial of everything transcendent. At other times, finally, it presents itself in a more attenuated form, one also more attractive to the modern mind: as a scientific activity, as a rigorous method of examining social and political reality, and as the rational link, tested by history, between theoretical knowledge and the practice of revolutionary transformation. Although this type of analysis gives a privileged position to certain aspects of reality to the detriment of the rest, and interprets them in the light of its ideology, it nevertheless furnishes some people not only with a working tool but also a certitude preliminary to action: the claim to decipher in a scientific manner the mainsprings of the evolution of society.

34. While, through the concrete existing form of Marxism, one can distinguish these various aspects and the questions they pose for the reflection and activity of Christians, it would be illusory and dangerous to reach a point of forgetting the intimate link which radically binds them together, to accept the elements of Marxist analysis without recognizing their relationships with ideology, and to enter into the practice of class struggle and its Marxist interpretations, while failing to note the kind of totalitarian and violent society to which this process leads.

The liberal ideology

35. On another side, we are witnessing a renewal of the liberal ideology. This current asserts itself both in the name of economic efficiency, and for the defense of the individual against the increasingly overwhelming hold of organizations, and as a reaction against the totalitarian tendencies of political powers. Certainly, personal initiative must be maintained and developed. But do not Christians who take this path tend to idealize liberalism in their turn, making it a proclamation in favor of freedom? They would like a new model, more adapted to present-day conditions, while easily forgetting that at the very root of philosophical liberalism is an erroneous affirmation of the autonomy of the individual in his activity, his motivation and the exercise of his liberty. Hence, the liberal ideology likewise calls for careful discernment on their part.

Christian discernment

36. In this renewed encounter of the various ideologies, the Christian will draw from the sources of his faith and the Church's teaching the necessary principles and suitable criteria to avoid permitting himself to be first attracted by and then imprisoned within a system whose limitations and totalitarianism may well become evident to him too late, if he does nor perceive them in their roots. Going beyond every system, without however failing to commit himself concretely to serving his brothers, he will assert, in the very midst of his options, the specific character of the Christian contribution for a positive transformation of society (21).

Rebirth of utopias

37. Today moreover the weaknesses of the ideologies are better perceived through the concrete systems in which they are trying to affirm themselves. Bureaucratic socialism, technocratic capitalism and authoritarian democracy are showing how difficult it is to solve the great human problem of living together in justice and equality. How in fact could they escape the materialism, egoism or constraint which inevitably go with them? This is the source of a protest which is springing up more or less everywhere, as a sign of a deep-seated sickness, while at the same time we are witnessing the rebirth of what it is agreed to call "utopias". These claim to resolve the political problem of modern societies better than the ideologies. It would be dangerous to disregard this. The appeal to a utopia is often a convenient excuse for those who wish to escape from concrete tasks in order to take refuge in an imaginary world. To live in a hypothetical future is a facile alibi for rejecting immediate responsibilities. But it must clearly be recognized that this kind of criticism of existing society often provokes the forward-looking imagination both to perceive in the present the disregarded possibility hidden within it, and to direct itself towards a fresh future; it thus sustains social dynamism by the confidence that it gives to the inventive powers of the human mind and heart; and, if it refuses no overture, it can also meet the Christian appeal. The Spirit of the Lord, who animates man renewed in Christ, continually breaks down the horizons within which his understanding likes to find security and the limits to which his activity would willingly restrict itself; here dwells within him a power which urges him to go beyond every system and every ideology. At the heart of the world there dwells the mystery of man discovering himself to be God's son in the course of a historical and psychological process in which constraint and freedom as well as the weight of sin and the breath of the Spirit alternate and struggle for the upper hand.

The dynamism of Christian faith here triumphs over the narrow calculations of egoism. Animated by the power of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the Savior of mankind, and upheld by hope, the Christian involves himself in the building up of the human city, one that is to be peaceful, just and fraternal and acceptable as an offering to God. (22) In fact, "the expectation of a new earth must not weaken but rather stimulate our concern for cultivating this one. For here grows the body of a new human family, a body which even now is able to give some kind of foreshadowing of the new age" (23).

(Read more)​
 
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benedictaoo

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The post I responded to said that the problem with socialism is that it tries to make the world better, closer to a heaven on earth for all.
Consider libertarianism/objectivism. ..by definition an atheistic worldview but with the goal of the individual getting ahead vs. the community. No big goals of raising all up, yet for some reason more acceptable than socialism among some religious folks. The difference is right along these lines, the idea if making the world better vs making it comfortable for one's self...e.g. hiding away living the life of luxury in Galt's Gulch while outside the world suffers.
Can not be done if the cost is apostasy.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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The following explains how liberal theology sank deeper and deeper into error and apostasy:
The great era of liberal theology came to an end with the First World War and the radical change in the intellectual climate that followed it. But there had already been rumblings of a revolution much earlier. The first clear signal of what was to come was a book by Johannes Weiss that appeared in 1892 under the title Jesus’ Proclamation of the Kingdom of God. Albert Schweitzer’s early exegetical works share the same outlook. Jesus’ message, it was now claimed, was radically “eschatological”; his proclamation of the imminent Kingdom of God was a proclamation of the imminent end of the world, of the inbreaking of a new world where, as the term kingdom suggests, God would reign. The proclamation of the Kingdom of God, it was argued, must therefore be understood as reffering strictly to the end times. Even texts that seemingly contradict this interpretation were somewhat violently made to fit it—for example, the growth parables about the sower (cf. Mk 4:3-9), the mustard seed (cf. Mk 4:30-32), the leaven (cf. Mt 13:33/Lk 13:20), and the spontaneously sprouting seed (cf. Mk 4:26-29). The point, it was said, is not growth; rather, Jesus is trying to say that while now our world is small, something very different is about to burst suddenly onto the scene. Here, obviously, theory predominated over listening to the text. Various efforts have been made to transpose Jesus’ vision of the imminent end times into the language of modern Christian life, since for us it is not immediately intelligible. Bultmann, for example, tried to do so in terms of the philosophy of Martin Heidegger—arguing that what matters is an existential attitude of “always standing at the ready.” Jürgen Moltmann, building on the work of Ernst Bloch, worked out a “theory of hope,” which claimed to interpret faith as an active involvement in the shaping of the future.

Since that time, a secularist reinterpretation of the idea of the Kingdom has gained considerable ground, particularly, though not exclusively, in Catholic theology. This reinterpretation propounds a new view of Christianity, religions, and history in general, and it claims that such radical refashioning will enable people to reappropriate Jesus’ supposed message. It is claimed that in pre—Vatican II period “ecclesiocentrism” was the dominant position: The Church was represented as the center of Christianity. Then there was a shift to Christocentrism, to the doctrine that Christ is the center of everything. But it is not only the Church that is divisive—so the argument continues—since Christ belongs exclusively to Christians. Hence the further step from Christocentrism to theocentrism. This has allegedly brought us closer to the community of religions, but our final goal continues to elude us, since even God can be a cause of division between religions and between people.

Therefore, it is claimed, we must now move toward “regnocentrism,” that is, toward the centrality of the Kingdom. This at last, we are told, is the heart of Jesus’ message, and it is also the right formula for finally harnessing mankind’s positive energies and directing them toward the world’s future. “Kingdom,” on this interpretation, is simply the name for a world governed by peace, justice, and the conservation of creation. It means no more than this. This “Kingdom” is said to be the goal of history that has to be attained. This is supposedly the real task of religions: to work together for the coming of the “Kingdom.” They are of course perfectly free to preserve their traditions and live according to their respective identities as well, but they must bring their different identities to bear on the common task of building the “Kingdom,” a world, in other words, where peace, justice, and respect for creation are the dominant values.

This sounds good; it seems like a way of finally enabling the whole world to appropriate Jesus’ message, but without requiring missionary evangelization of other religions. It looks as if now, at long last, Jesus’ words have gained some practical content, because the establishment of the “Kingdom” has become a common task and is drawing nigh. On closer examination, though, it seems suspicious. Who is to say what justice is? What serves justice in particular situations? How do we create peace? On closer inspection, this whole project proves to be utopian dreaming without any real content, except insofar as its exponents tacitly presuppose some partisan doctrine as the content that all are required to accept.

But the main thing that leaps out is that God has disappeared; man is the only actor left on the stage. The respect for religious “traditions” claimed by this way of thinking is only apparent. The truth is that they are regarded as so many sets of customs, which people should be allowed to keep, even though they ultimately count for nothing. Faith and religions are now directed toward political goals. Only the organization of the world counts. Religion matters only insofar as it can serve that objective. This post-Christian vision of faith and religion is disturbing close to Jesus’ third temptation.

— Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI), Jesus of Nazareth - Vol I, pp. 52-55
 
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benedictaoo

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Answer my questions, please, they were direct and simple. What the Pope was referring to is distinct from what Servant of God Day spoke of, what Bernie Sanders advocates for. It is, however, what Vladimir Putin is moving toward.

Unless you believe that calling something socialism is what makes it socialism, which would be a rather absurd stance.
Sanders has to be willing to do away with the abominations.
 
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pdudgeon

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Mountain_Girl406

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both of them are concerned with raising the able to further heights. that's their attraction.

Attractions perhaps, but pretty much the opposite of the Beatitudes, so how can they be the correct choice for Christians?
 
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MikeK

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Attractions perhaps, but pretty much the opposite of the Beatitudes, so how can they be the correct choice for Christians?

They can't. Dorothy Day, GK Cheaterton and others have presented us with a way forward - Distributism. Is has everything good from capitalism and socialism, and few of the inherent ills. You won't find hyperpartisans on the right advocating for such a system though. A true leftist could be drawn to the communalism and interdependency of a Distributist system though.
 
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benedictaoo

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...of gay marriage and abortion? He sure does. Other than those, which are not negligible, his policies are quite sound.
and that is not some small thing. We will be ushering in the end if we continue to offer solution in exchange for apostasy. There will be no happy ending, just the end. Russia did spread her error. It's everywhere, not just in our own country.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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and that is not some small thing. We will be ushering in the end if we continue to offer solution in exchange for apostasy. There will be no happy ending, just the end. Russia did spread her error. It's everywhere, not just in our own country.
The deception of the Antichrist has happened exactly like it says in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

"The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the 'intrinsically perverse' political form of a secular messianism." - CCC, 676
 
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benedictaoo

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The deception of the Antichrist has already happened exactly like it says in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Its been for the last 100 plus years. The think what you need to press upon folks is God's mercy, He wants to give it to us, not condemn us. We can change the course of this runaway train through prayer and sacrifice.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Its been for the last 100 plus years.
I agree that this didn't just begin, but there have been some major milestones such as the sexual revolution, Roe vs Wade, and now the homosexual revolution and the recent SCOTUS decision on marriage. And when those changes happen in the United States it affects the whole world. It started with the atheistic so-called "Enlightenment," and it's been downhill ever since.
The think what you need to press upon folks is God's mercy, He wants to give it to us, not condemn us. We can change the course of this runaway train through prayer and sacrifice.
Actually, the topic of this thread is directly related to God's mercy. And I created a thread before about the Divine Mercy. Some are searching for truth. But what can be done for the ones who redefine "God" to mean themselves, science, or the government?
 
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pdudgeon

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Attractions perhaps, but pretty much the opposite of the Beatitudes, so how can they be the correct choice for Christians?
the answer is that they aren't the answer.

unfortunately so many Christians today just think that Christianity is an 'add on' to their life.
they just don't see God as giving us a whole other, better life.
they have been so conditioned to believe that 'Jesus loves us just as we are"
that they don't realize it doesn't stop there.
the truth is that it's satan who loves us just as we are.
and he's very happy if we stay that way.

they believe that liberation theology ("Jesus loves us just as we are") is great, and that-- combined with capitolism-- is the earthly reward system
that rewards everyone.

none of that is true.
as you've said, the Beatitudes are true.
but the beatitudes take two things; belief and persistance.
and in today's society those two things are not popular.
 
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