Enemies in the forum....

[payattention]

Just trying to get this back on track.

When the cat's away the mice will play.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Forgiveness is an attitude, not a response. Not to forgive is to hold a grudge. God holds no grudges; neither should we.

I completely agree. You can't love your enemy and hold a grudge, but that doesn't make you any less weary of them. We're told to look out for wolves in sheep's clothing.

It's like Jesus told His disciples "if they're not against us, then they're for us." If they are against us, then they are our enemies.

Holding a grudge is something that kills people's spirit. It really is incumbent upon us to let go of the anger, give it to God, and pray for the person that hurts us. That doesn't mean the person you prayed for now has to be your best friend, you just have to truly love them.

Let's take slavery as an example. What a horrible thing it was that happened, but the people of today had nothing to do with it. The grudge is still there for some. I submit that Christ died for the sins of our ancestors as well. 1 John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The prodigal father was related to his son (obviously). We all know blood is thicker than water and it is easier to forgive someone you have a kinship with.

So payattention, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I do know we cannot hold a grudge and we must love our enemies. But I've yet to see a verse that says we should forgive them before they ask. Being cautious of further attempts of them hurting us is not the same as hating them. You can love them and still keep your distance. We should always leave the door open for an apology though.

 

[payattention]

Holding a grudge is something that kills people's spirit. It really is incumbent upon us to let go of the anger, give it to God, and pray for the person that hurts us. That doesn't mean the person you prayed for now has to be your best friend, you just have to truly love them.

We are agreed on that point. As my professor used to say, "Loving your enemy does not mean you have to invite him to lunch." You could but you don't have to.

Let's take slavery as an example. What a horrible thing it was that happened, but the people of today had nothing to do with it. The grudge is still there for some. I submit that Christ died for the sins of our ancestors as well. 1 John 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Slavery is not a good example. In most cases it is not a grudge. Slavery may have been abolished but the mentality behind it is alive and well. Without the protection of the law and the approbation of civilized people many people in this country would bring it back in a heartbeat. Then you have the continued effects of slavery that some try to deny exist. What you observe in most cases is a reaction to something that is very real.

The prodigal father was related to his son (obviously). We all know blood is thicker than water and it is easier to forgive someone you have a kinship with.

We all came from the same parents: Adam and Eve. That means we are all of the same blood.

So payattention, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I do know we cannot hold a grudge and we must love our enemies. But I've yet to see a verse that says we should forgive them before they ask.

Neither do you have a verse that says you cannot hold a grudge and love your enemy. But you can figure out from the corpus of biblical teaching that it is wrong. We don't always need a text. We need to be reminded that much of the ible is an historical account. It deals with things that were came up in the course of those current events.

Being cautious of further attempts of them hurting us is not the same as hating them. You can love them and still keep your distance. We should always leave the door open for an apology though.

Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I don't hold a grudge against anyone. If it's someone that continually tries to hurt me then I pray for them and keep my distance. That doesn't mean I don't love them.

As far as the "slave mentality" goes, I don't have it. Thank God I never have. I think it was atrocious and I cannot believe it ever happened. I don't have a racist bone in my body but I do know some have prejudice against me because of my skin color. I cannot be held accountable for something I had nothing to do with, nor do I condone today.

True, Adam and Eve are the parents of all of us. But we both know there is a special bond between parent and child. It goes way beyond friendship.

The point is, the Bible is very clear that we will have enemies and we're to pray for them. Forgiveness sometimes is just a matter of walking away and agreeing to disagree.

 

[TrustAndObey]

And just for clarity, I must say that if someone has made me really angry but takes the time to apologize, I cannot help but forgive them. Regardless of whether or not we're commanded to do so, don't you find it impossible to look a sincere apology in the face and say "no." I can't do it. If someone is truly sorry and wants me to be their friend, then absolutely.

The Bible says they must ask, and sometimes that really is all it takes. I've said I was sorry for things that I didn't really think I was responsible for, but it wasn't worth losing a friendship over, ya know?

I think Christians are not only commanded to forgive, Christians are also commanded to apologize.

 

[honorthesabbath]

I don't hold a grudge against anyone. If it's someone that continually tries to hurt me then I pray for them and keep my distance. That doesn't mean I don't love them.

As far as the "slave mentality" goes, I don't have it. Thank God I never have. I think it was atrocious and I cannot believe it ever happened. I don't have a racist bone in my body but I do know some have prejudice against me because of my skin color. I cannot be held accountable for something I had nothing to do with, nor do I condone today.

True, Adam and Eve are the parents of all of us. But we both know there is a special bond between parent and child. It goes way beyond friendship.

The point is, the Bible is very clear that we will have enemies and we're to pray for them. Forgiveness sometimes is just a matter of walking away and agreeing to disagree.

Amen TO--and know what else God has laid on my heart? To go ahead and forgive them even though they haven't asked. I wondered at the reason for this revelation, and then it came to me. Because there are some folks who can never admit their own wrongs. And if we go around gruding them their mean rudeness, then as you said earlier---we lose OUR connection with Jesus. As a matter of fact, God has placed a joy in my heart when I'm misjudged. He reminds me of this--Mt 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
I want nothing to stand in the way of my relationship with Jesus. When someone wrongs me, I try to explain my position. If that's rejected, then all I can do is move on. IF they persist in their attacks, then just as Jesus did to the rude thief on the cross--just ignore them. Thats' what that function is for. Let peace prevail!!

Blessings, Honor

 

[payattention]

The Bible says they must ask, and sometimes that really is all it takes.

If we turn a conversational "if" into a "must" we would run into serious problems.

"If you have a ticket you will get a seat" does not prevent me from giving a seat to someone who does not have a seat. But, over the years I have found that this is what many have done with "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

A conversational -statutory shift often works a disservice to the meaning.

 

[happywiththelord]

Do we REALLY need a thread talking about our enemies?? How unChristian like. At least to me!! They are much better things to talk about and to put our minds to than this petty stuff. Sad!!

 

[tall73]

I hope this is not a violation of rules, but the structure itself of the forum seems to encourage people to claim to be what they are not just so they have the right to debate. We would be much better off to simply say anyone can debate. Then we don't have to wonder how many are claiming to be one thing without really being that.

Whether or not it has actually happened I am not going to speculate...though some clearly have. But I can see how it would leave the possibility open.

Besides, what is the advantage of having a forum where we give answers and folks just have to live with it? I would rather them give their objections so we can further explain.

It seems that harmful statements can be moderated in their own right without having to make a policy of no disagreement with the resident adventists. I assume from what I read that this applies to all the specific boards?

Sorry, I am new, just trying to make sense of this. Assuming this is for the protection of the adventists present from a bunch of arguing...could we vote to allow it just so that we at least could put to rest the idea that some are claiming to be Adventist who are not? Then we just wind up with a witch hunt.

Also, off topic, but does the reputation ever go DOWN or just onward and upward?

 

[StormyOne]

Tall,

Been there done that.... when I first joined I was given grief for not having the "icon" and then accused of various things including not being an adventist, then when I shared how much of an adventist I was, the accusation was that I was boasting about it.....

I thought the "rule" about the icon is/was questionable given a person could display the icon just to debate even though there was no affiliation. I am not certain how rules are changed here, so that has been a battle I have chosen not to fight....

 

[daveleau]

I thought the "rule" about the icon is/was questionable given a person could display the icon just to debate even though there was no affiliation. I am not certain how rules are changed here, so that has been a battle I have chosen not to fight....

Mod Hat On^
Non-SDAers cannot have SDA icons just so they can debate in different forums. That is contrary to the purpose of these forums. The purpose is for people to get ideas from people within like congregations. All SDAs have one forum. That includes all branches. All Baptists/Anabaptists/Quakers/Mennonites have one forum that covers all of them for their ideas. If anyone here just wears an SDA icon just so they can debate, let me know.

Mod Hat Off^

 

[StormyOne]

remember this thread???? interesting to revisit after all these years...

 

[StormyOne]

we should have taken Tall's suggestion back then.... might have turned out differently...

 

[TrustAndObey]

I learned three things from this thread:

1. I was reasonable even back then. LOL!

2. It IS possible to prove my account was wiped out. Look....no CF character in any of my old posts.

3. I need to be more careful about who I perceive to be an enemy.

 

[NightEternal]

While you are being indignant regarding Stormy's posts and threads, I am sure if it were about JWs or the RCC, for example, you would not nearly be so irate. Let me see you defend the faith of others and then I will believe you that this is not self-serving.
You might not realize how much Stormy loves the Adventist church. And that is why he wants us to open our eyes and clean up our mess. Your wanting to keep public things hidden, when the world already knows about it and has access to that information is naive.
Furthermore, your analogy is incorrect. When you cite going into another's home and criticizing their decor and kicking their cat, you forgot one thing. This is Stormy's home too. The forum and the Adventist church belongs to him as well as it does to you. He is not an "outsider" but a part of the family, if you wish, and is therefore at liberty to dust and mop. It might not be comfy for you, to see him all busy, but it might be a blessing to others who have allergies.

WOW what a great post!

Bravo HoneyDew!

 

[NightEternal]

Stormy, let me say that I can totally feel your pain in this thread. I really can.

Have things really changed that much in two years? It doesn't look like it.

 

[NightEternal]

Stormy, you are not the enemy here!

Let me tell you what the enemy is...

Are you ready...

Questions!

They just don't like our questions because we are thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men's thoughts.

Woob said THIS?

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN CONTENDING ALL ALONG.

Oy vey...

 

[NightEternal]

Tall's comments are chillingly prophetic here. He diagnosed the problems and offered solutions that could easily apply today.

 

[StormyOne]

Stormy, let me say that I can totally feel your pain in this thread. I really can.

Have things really changed that much in two years? It doesn't look like it.

NE, those were interesting times... and I left for awhile thinking that if I were not here that the controversy would die down... but guess what, it didn't..... oh well....

As I reread Tall's suggestions I had the same reaction you did....

 

[honorthesabbath]

I too left--for over a year--so this fighting can't be laid at my feet either.